Speaking in tongues
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I will quote from Eusebius' compilation of quotes from Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History from the 300's, which is found on the following site, and I may comment in a subsequent post so my quotes will not be confused with his.
Chapter VII.—Even down to those Times Miracles were performed by the Faithful.
1. These things Irenæus, in agreement with the accounts already given by us,1459 records in the work which comprises five books, and to which he gave the title Refutation and Overthrow of the Knowledge Falsely So-called.1460 In the second book of the same treatise he shows that manifestations of divine and miraculous power continued to his time in some of the churches.
2. He says:1461
“But so far do they come short of raising the dead, as the Lord raised them, and the apostles through prayer. And oftentimes in the brotherhood, when, on account of some necessity, our entire Church has besought with fasting and much supplication, the spirit of the dead has returned,1462 and the man has been restored through the prayers of the saints.”
3. And again, after other remarks, he says:1463
222“If they will say that even the Lord did these things in mere appearance, we will refer them to the prophetic writings, and show from them that all things were beforehand spoken of him in this manner, and were strictly fulfilled; and that he alone is the Son of God. Wherefore his true disciples, receiving grace from him, perform such works in his Name for the benefit of other men, as each has received the gift from him.
4. For some of them drive out demons effectually and truly, so that those who have been cleansed from evil spirits frequently believe and unite with the Church. Others have a foreknowledge of future events, and visions, and prophetic revelations. Still others heal the sick by the laying on of hands, and restore them to health. And, as we have said, even dead persons have been raised, and remained with us many years.
5. But why should we say more? It is not possible to recount the number of gifts which the Church, throughout all the world, has received from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and exercises every day for the benefit of the heathen, never deceiving any nor doing it for money. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister.”1464
6. And in another place the same author writes:1465
“As also we hear that many brethren in the Church possess prophetic gifts, and speak, through the Spirit, with all kinds of tongues, and bring to light the secret things of men for their good, and declare the mysteries of God.”
So much in regard to the fact that various gifts remained among those who were worthy even until that time.
Chapter VII.—Even down to those Times Miracles were performed by the Faithful.
1. These things Irenæus, in agreement with the accounts already given by us,1459 records in the work which comprises five books, and to which he gave the title Refutation and Overthrow of the Knowledge Falsely So-called.1460 In the second book of the same treatise he shows that manifestations of divine and miraculous power continued to his time in some of the churches.
2. He says:1461
“But so far do they come short of raising the dead, as the Lord raised them, and the apostles through prayer. And oftentimes in the brotherhood, when, on account of some necessity, our entire Church has besought with fasting and much supplication, the spirit of the dead has returned,1462 and the man has been restored through the prayers of the saints.”
3. And again, after other remarks, he says:1463
222“If they will say that even the Lord did these things in mere appearance, we will refer them to the prophetic writings, and show from them that all things were beforehand spoken of him in this manner, and were strictly fulfilled; and that he alone is the Son of God. Wherefore his true disciples, receiving grace from him, perform such works in his Name for the benefit of other men, as each has received the gift from him.
4. For some of them drive out demons effectually and truly, so that those who have been cleansed from evil spirits frequently believe and unite with the Church. Others have a foreknowledge of future events, and visions, and prophetic revelations. Still others heal the sick by the laying on of hands, and restore them to health. And, as we have said, even dead persons have been raised, and remained with us many years.
5. But why should we say more? It is not possible to recount the number of gifts which the Church, throughout all the world, has received from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and exercises every day for the benefit of the heathen, never deceiving any nor doing it for money. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister.”1464
6. And in another place the same author writes:1465
“As also we hear that many brethren in the Church possess prophetic gifts, and speak, through the Spirit, with all kinds of tongues, and bring to light the secret things of men for their good, and declare the mysteries of God.”
So much in regard to the fact that various gifts remained among those who were worthy even until that time.
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I do not recall the exact quotes, but I recall reading a quote from John Chrysostom that there was a lack of miracles in his day due to the state the church was in. He wasn't a cessationist in the same sense some are now. He just hadn't experienced miracles. Augustine also gave a 'cessationist' explanation for why he hadn't witnessed speaking in tongues, but he became a documenter of miracles and healings in his later years.
It is strange when cessationist argue for cessationism in history by choosing quotes from those who hadn't experienced certain gifts of the Spirit while ignoring those who had actually witnessed them. One cessationist author in the 1800's claimed there was no evidence for spiritual gifts among in the early church after the apostles. Though this claim has been refuted, other cessationists repeat this mistake until modern times. Some of the modern books on cessationism seem dishonest to me. One claimed there were no reliable claims of....whatever it was, certain spiritual gifts, working miracles or whatever... after the time of the apostles. To me, to write a whole book like that and make such a claim seems disingenous. Either he hasn't done his homework and pretends like he has, or he knows about the evidence but doesn't share it but calls it 'unreliable' because it does not fit with his assumed theological position.
I was reading an article by Craig Keener, who mentioned Origin and Tertullian as witnesses of miracles, Wesley witnessing what he believed was a resurrection. Keener is an evangelical scholar who came out with a 1200 page book called "Miracles". I haven't read the book, but based on the bibiolography, it deals with accounts of Christian miracles throughout history down to modern times.
Another book I have read a bit of is 'The Spirit and the Church' by Burgess. A friend of mine had that back in the 1980's. I think it's 3 volumes. I read parts of volume I, which deals with the AnteNicene period. It deals with various accounts during the Nicene period, including Athanasius prophesying.
You could also have a look at a book from the 1800's called 'The Suppressed Evidence.' It was available free online not too long ago. It is written primarily in English, but it has quotes in other languages like Latin, maybe even Dutch. It is a response to cessationist authors from that era.
There are many, many, many claims to miracles and other spiritual gifts throughout church history. Jesus called casting out demons a miracle. If you do not believe people work miracles today, then how can you believe in a situation where casting out a demon is required? Some cessationists allow for casting out demons, but are therefore inconsistent in their belief system. If demons can be cast out, miracles can be performed today. There are references to casting out demons at different times in church history. Tertullian wrote about it. Gregory of Armenia was said to have gotten favor with the king after miraculously curing the king (who had imprisoned him in a pit when he refused to make a pagan offering, and when he heard that Gregory's father had plotted to kill his father.)
I have read that St. Martin of Tours is said to have raised the dead. Of course, there are many accounts of St. Patrick miraculously healing and raising the dead in Ireland. The two letters attributed to him are non-cessationist. One tells of his vision to escape from Ireland, and the other of the supernatural voice that led him to return and minister.
And of course, the Bible never says anything about gifts of healing and the gift of the working of miracles ever ceasing. The arguments for this typically are along these lines-- that miracles were to confirm the word and the word is confirmed. That is such poor reasoning. Just in Acts, the gospel message was confirmed over and over again when it enters into a new area. We also hear of miracles on frontier areas for evangelism at times, and throughout church history. But the gift of the working of miracles and gifts of healing in I Corinthians 12 are given to the body for the common good. The body of Christ still exists.
It is strange when cessationist argue for cessationism in history by choosing quotes from those who hadn't experienced certain gifts of the Spirit while ignoring those who had actually witnessed them. One cessationist author in the 1800's claimed there was no evidence for spiritual gifts among in the early church after the apostles. Though this claim has been refuted, other cessationists repeat this mistake until modern times. Some of the modern books on cessationism seem dishonest to me. One claimed there were no reliable claims of....whatever it was, certain spiritual gifts, working miracles or whatever... after the time of the apostles. To me, to write a whole book like that and make such a claim seems disingenous. Either he hasn't done his homework and pretends like he has, or he knows about the evidence but doesn't share it but calls it 'unreliable' because it does not fit with his assumed theological position.
I was reading an article by Craig Keener, who mentioned Origin and Tertullian as witnesses of miracles, Wesley witnessing what he believed was a resurrection. Keener is an evangelical scholar who came out with a 1200 page book called "Miracles". I haven't read the book, but based on the bibiolography, it deals with accounts of Christian miracles throughout history down to modern times.
Another book I have read a bit of is 'The Spirit and the Church' by Burgess. A friend of mine had that back in the 1980's. I think it's 3 volumes. I read parts of volume I, which deals with the AnteNicene period. It deals with various accounts during the Nicene period, including Athanasius prophesying.
You could also have a look at a book from the 1800's called 'The Suppressed Evidence.' It was available free online not too long ago. It is written primarily in English, but it has quotes in other languages like Latin, maybe even Dutch. It is a response to cessationist authors from that era.
There are many, many, many claims to miracles and other spiritual gifts throughout church history. Jesus called casting out demons a miracle. If you do not believe people work miracles today, then how can you believe in a situation where casting out a demon is required? Some cessationists allow for casting out demons, but are therefore inconsistent in their belief system. If demons can be cast out, miracles can be performed today. There are references to casting out demons at different times in church history. Tertullian wrote about it. Gregory of Armenia was said to have gotten favor with the king after miraculously curing the king (who had imprisoned him in a pit when he refused to make a pagan offering, and when he heard that Gregory's father had plotted to kill his father.)
I have read that St. Martin of Tours is said to have raised the dead. Of course, there are many accounts of St. Patrick miraculously healing and raising the dead in Ireland. The two letters attributed to him are non-cessationist. One tells of his vision to escape from Ireland, and the other of the supernatural voice that led him to return and minister.
And of course, the Bible never says anything about gifts of healing and the gift of the working of miracles ever ceasing. The arguments for this typically are along these lines-- that miracles were to confirm the word and the word is confirmed. That is such poor reasoning. Just in Acts, the gospel message was confirmed over and over again when it enters into a new area. We also hear of miracles on frontier areas for evangelism at times, and throughout church history. But the gift of the working of miracles and gifts of healing in I Corinthians 12 are given to the body for the common good. The body of Christ still exists.
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Botheration!! It gets old trying to read a book when a note would do.
1. Iranaeus was not Roman Catholic, He was dead by 407AD and the RCC was not established until around the 7th century
2. This is the second time that you have mentioned that you know all about the Roman Catholic religion, and I am wondering why. i am not RCC but I do have extensive study on it. As I do on most major cults.
3. I am not of that religion as I am "calvinist", total opposite of Catholocism.
It was the council of Trent that set catholocism forever apart from Christianity. For a few centuries the church in Rome was solid, when Paul went there for the first time he said that a great crowd came out to greet him.
Give poor old Iranaeus a break.
1. Iranaeus was not Roman Catholic, He was dead by 407AD and the RCC was not established until around the 7th century
2. This is the second time that you have mentioned that you know all about the Roman Catholic religion, and I am wondering why. i am not RCC but I do have extensive study on it. As I do on most major cults.
3. I am not of that religion as I am "calvinist", total opposite of Catholocism.
It was the council of Trent that set catholocism forever apart from Christianity. For a few centuries the church in Rome was solid, when Paul went there for the first time he said that a great crowd came out to greet him.
Give poor old Iranaeus a break.
1 Corinthians 4:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Sure it is a parable the word figure is paroimia or parable.
figure...……... paroimia: a byword, a parable, an allegory
Original Word: παροιμία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paroimia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oy-mee'-ah)
Definition: a byword, a parable, an allegory.
Usage: a cryptic saying, an allegory; a proverb, figurative discourse.
What does the parable in 1 Corinthians 4 inform us about apostles ? Would it support Catholicism and what they call "apostolic succession" or law of the fathers or would it destroy the meaning and change the author intent ?
Did Catholisicim ever use the word apostle in a biblical sense or right manner?
You asked me for the quotes. I found them for you, and you respond with a negative comment. You even gave me a thumbs down when I did a favor for you.
If the issue is whether there was any speaking in tongues or miracles and it was not going on all over the place, (or it could have been a little more widespread than we might think, but was not recorded) then you look for the ones who testify to it.
If you lived before photographs and you wanted to find out if elephants existed, would you want to talk to someone who had seen one or someone who had not who claimed they did not exist. Those who have not seen miracles might right that they think they do not exist anymore. You should go to writings of those who witnessed such things to see if they were going on in history.
If the issue is whether there was any speaking in tongues or miracles and it was not going on all over the place, (or it could have been a little more widespread than we might think, but was not recorded) then you look for the ones who testify to it.
If you lived before photographs and you wanted to find out if elephants existed, would you want to talk to someone who had seen one or someone who had not who claimed they did not exist. Those who have not seen miracles might right that they think they do not exist anymore. You should go to writings of those who witnessed such things to see if they were going on in history.
I am not sure what elephant story you have in mind, because I can't read your mind. Maybe I should have used the real historical example of the duck billed platypus which some scientists claimed did not exist--because of their theory rooted in unbelief-- while other individuals were eye witnesses of it.
The testimony of those who have not witnessed miracles, etc. counts for just about zero when you argue whether miracles occured in history. The testimony of those who have seen them count for nothing.
What would you think if a witness for the prosecution for a murder case testified that he was in a different state and did not see the murder and had nothing to do with it? I'd call that irrelevant to the case at hand.
The testimony of those who have not witnessed miracles, etc. counts for just about zero when you argue whether miracles occured in history. The testimony of those who have seen them count for nothing.
What would you think if a witness for the prosecution for a murder case testified that he was in a different state and did not see the murder and had nothing to do with it? I'd call that irrelevant to the case at hand.
From what I read he was very influential in getting Catholicism its start .You could say passing on the baton as a law of the fathers like a relay race or apostolic succession handed down from the Pharisees with Sadducees. Which in doing so simply makes the word of God in respect to the authority of God (sola scriptura) without effect.
By looking at his stance on sola scriptura its gives us all the information we need to know about him .
By looking at his stance on sola scriptura its gives us all the information we need to know about him .
You're conflating languages. It is clear that Paul is talking about the words prior to verse 6, not after. Paul was using figurative language, not telling a story with a moral lesson, which is what a parable is. If you are going to use an English word ("parable") then you have to use the English meaning of the word, not the meaning of the Greek word translated "parable" in certain cases.
It isn't a parable. I don't care what the Catholics do with it.
What Catholics do is irrelevant.
It isn't a parable. I don't care what the Catholics do with it.
What Catholics do is irrelevant.
The word figure is parable. Parables compare the things seen the temporal to the unseen eternal understanding.
Paul is talking about using the apostles and comparing them as a parable to the authority of the word of God, our unseen authority of faith. Having it in respect to Christ . Its what parables do use the temporal things seen to give us the unseen eternal spiritual understanding .
The moral....We are not to puff up the apostles seen above that which is written in respect to the unseen the incorruptible seed of God's word. He makes men differ from another
1 Corinthians 4:6 King James Version (KJV)And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that "which is written", that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
What do you think the moral of the parable teaches us?
When you get very allegorical, the only reasonable way to claim your words might be true is to claim prophetic revelation. In your posts, you reject many of the ways the Spirit works in the church. Why should we believe you have received mystical revelation that a scripture means something other than what it actually says? Why wouldn't you take the comment about the figure to refer back to the steward comment earlier?
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The verse says they will speak in new languages. I can show you in Acts 2, 10, and 19 where they did speak in new languages. So I have Biblical support. What support do you have for your strange idea? It says new tongues, not a new heart Which Jewish scholars knew that Christians would have had a new heart? And what does that have to do with the verse we are discussing?
Tongues were known beyond any doubt to be genuine back in Paul's day. Now they are known to be bogus. In other words ....sign gifts were authentication miracles that HAD to be confirmed beyond dispute.
Tongues today are IMO clearly bogus. Never once have genuine tongues been duly witnessed and recorded since the passing of Paul and the Apostles. Sign gifts are over ....until the End Times where they will be utilized once again by the 144,00 and Two Witnesses.
Tongues today are IMO clearly bogus. Never once have genuine tongues been duly witnessed and recorded since the passing of Paul and the Apostles. Sign gifts are over ....until the End Times where they will be utilized once again by the 144,00 and Two Witnesses.
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