Speaking in tongues

[garee]

"God mocking the Jews "

God judging unbelieving Israel, certainly not mocking. And this of course was prophesied.
And tongues were a gift to the Church BTW.

With stammering lips is with mocking lips, a way of deriding those who refuse to hear prophecy . And yes God did bring his inspired interpretation to the church, no longer speaking in Hebrew alone. Hebrews the mockers of God who made the word of God to no effect by their oral tradition of the fathers .

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[cv5]

It says they will speak per Mark 16 with new tongues. Not new languages but new tongues. 2 Cor 5 tell us that we are new creations in Christ. We have new tongues to speak of the glories of the indwelling Christ. Jews would have known of Jehovah removing the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh.

You make a great unsupported leap of Acts 2, 10, and 19 supporting new languages. They spoke and were heard in known languages. These events were reported by Peter as signs for the Jews in Jerusalem to know the converts were the same as the ones they knew in Jerusalem. Gentiles receiving the same Holy Spirit as the Jews.

The discussion was swirling around Mark 16. You continue to build more around the mythology of Pentecostalism than on actual biblical texts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Bible > Strong's > Greek

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◄ γλώσσαις ►

Englishman's Concordance
γλώσσαις (glōssais) — 15 Occurrences
Mark 16:17 N-DFP
GRK: δαιμόνια ἐκβαλοῦσιν γλώσσαις λαλήσουσιν καιναῖς
NAS: they will speak with new tongues;
KJV: they shall speak with new tongues;
INT: demons they will cast out with tongues they will speak new
Acts 2:4 N-DFP
GRK: λαλεῖν ἑτέραις γλώσσαις καθὼς τὸ
NAS: with other tongues, as the Spirit
KJV: other tongues, as
INT: to speak with other tongues as the
Acts 2:11 N-DFP
GRK: ταῖς ἡμετέραις γλώσσαις τὰ μεγαλεῖα
NAS: we hear them in our [own] tongues speaking
KJV: in our tongues the wonderful works
INT: [in] our tongues the great things
Acts 10:46 N-DFP
GRK: αὐτῶν λαλούντων γλώσσαις καὶ μεγαλυνόντων
NAS: them speaking with tongues and exalting
KJV: them speak with tongues, and magnify
INT: them speaking with tongues and magnifying
Acts 19:6 N-DFP
GRK: ἐλάλουν τε γλώσσαις καὶ ἐπροφήτευον
NAS: on them, and they [began] speaking with tongues and prophesying.
KJV: they spake with tongues, and
INT: they were speaking moreover with tongues and prophesying
Romans 3:13 N-DFP
GRK: αὐτῶν ταῖς γλώσσαις αὐτῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν
NAS: GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,
KJV: with their tongues they have used deceit;
INT: of them with the tongues of them they practice deceit
​

 

[cv5]

Bible > Strong's > Greek

​

◄ γλώσσαις ►
Englishman's Concordance
γλώσσαις (glōssais) — 15 Occurrences
Mark 16:17 N-DFP
GRK: δαιμόνια ἐκβαλοῦσιν γλώσσαις λαλήσουσιν καιναῖς
NAS: they will speak with new tongues;
KJV: they shall speak with new tongues;
INT: demons they will cast out with tongues they will speak new
Acts 2:4 N-DFP
GRK: λαλεῖν ἑτέραις γλώσσαις καθὼς τὸ
NAS: with other tongues, as the Spirit
KJV: other tongues, as
INT: to speak with other tongues as the
Acts 2:11 N-DFP
GRK: ταῖς ἡμετέραις γλώσσαις τὰ μεγαλεῖα
NAS: we hear them in our [own] tongues speaking
KJV: in our tongues the wonderful works
INT: [in] our tongues the great things
Acts 10:46 N-DFP
GRK: αὐτῶν λαλούντων γλώσσαις καὶ μεγαλυνόντων
NAS: them speaking with tongues and exalting
KJV: them speak with tongues, and magnify
INT: them speaking with tongues and magnifying
Acts 19:6 N-DFP
GRK: ἐλάλουν τε γλώσσαις καὶ ἐπροφήτευον
NAS: on them, and they [began] speaking with tongues and prophesying.
KJV: they spake with tongues, and
INT: they were speaking moreover with tongues and prophesying
Romans 3:13 N-DFP
GRK: αὐτῶν ταῖς γλώσσαις αὐτῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν
NAS: GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,
KJV: with their tongues they have used deceit;
INT: of them with the tongues of them they practice deceit
​

1 Corinthians 12:30 N-DFP
GRK: μὴ πάντες γλώσσαις λαλοῦσιν μὴ
NAS: do not speak with tongues, do they? All
KJV: do all speak with tongues? do all
INT: not all do speak with tongues not
1 Corinthians 13:1 N-DFP
GRK: Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων
NAS: I speak with the tongues of men
KJV: I speak with the tongues of men
INT: If with the tongues the of men
1 Corinthians 14:5 N-DFP
GRK: ὑμᾶς λαλεῖν γλώσσαις μᾶλλον δὲ
NAS: spoke in tongues, but [even] more
KJV: all spake with tongues, but rather
INT: you to speak with tongues rather however
1 Corinthians 14:5 N-DFP
GRK: ὁ λαλῶν γλώσσαις ἐκτὸς εἰ
NAS: one who speaks in tongues, unless
KJV: he that speaketh with tongues, except
INT: he that speaks with tongues except if
1 Corinthians 14:6 N-DFP
GRK: πρὸς ὑμᾶς γλώσσαις λαλῶν τί
NAS: to you speaking in tongues, what
KJV: speaking with tongues, what
INT: to you with tongues speaking what
1 Corinthians 14:18 N-DFP
GRK: ὑμῶν μᾶλλον γλώσσαις λαλῶ
NAS: I speak in tongues more
KJV: God, I speak with tongues more than ye
INT: of you more with tongues speaking
1 Corinthians 14:23 N-DFP
GRK: πάντες λαλῶσιν γλώσσαις εἰσέλθωσιν δὲ
NAS: speak in tongues, and ungifted men
KJV: speak with tongues, and
INT: all should speak with tongues come in however
1 Corinthians 14:39 N-DFP
GRK: μὴ κωλύετε γλώσσαις
NAS: and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
KJV: not to speak with tongues.
INT: not do forbid with tongues
Revelation 10:11 N-DFP
GRK: ἔθνεσιν καὶ γλώσσαις καὶ βασιλεῦσιν
NAS: and nations and tongues and kings.
KJV: nations, and tongues, and kings.
INT: nations and tongues and kings

 

[Noose]

I have never spoken a tongue out in the assembly to be interpreted but I have witnessed this probably hundrds of times. I do not know how adtonished the crowd was since most people are familiar with gifts of the Spirit.

I would imagine unbelievers and some Christians who are unfamiliar with prophecy might be astonished when someone prophesies about things the one prophesying couldn't naturally know.

My wife has prophesied over people like that quite a lot. But she seemed astonished when she was thinking about starting a catering business when I was a poor grad student. She went to a meeting of about 10 people and someone got a word encouraging someone there about starting a catering business. My wife and I did catering after that which kept us afloat financially. My point is me wife seemed 'astonished' being on the recieving end after being on the giving end a lot.

I showed up late at a retreat and few minutes inyo it end up praying for a giy I'd shaken ands with and met once. I prayed about his car problems, his ministry in India, ministry in th US. He seemed astonished later andvasked hus wife if she gad told my wife about the bad wheel on his car and she gad not.

Sometimes believers are astonished. It is also comforting to see God at work in your life. It is like when you pray an amazingly detailed prayer and the Lord answers it. Isn't that encouraging?

Gifts are signs to confirm the message of the gospel and the gifted should never be in doubt as to what gift they possess. Gifts should never be incidental because it is God working through the gifted-so the gifted should be knowing from the onset that they can prophesy or do miracles or heal or speak in tongues.

In your case, you have been speaking in tongues but have evidence from what others do, never yourself. Is the spirit in you different from what others have?

Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it.

Heb 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.2For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

These verses confirm the purpose of the gifts, it is always about the gospel so that people may believe. The scope is the kingdom of God, anything beyond that is not a gift from God.
According to Heb 2, the gospel was to be preached first by the Lord himself, then the disciples (1st hand witnesses) and finally the those that were appointed to spread the gospel to ends of the earth being given the gifts to confirm their message. Anything beyond that is questionable and indeed there's a good reason why only 1st hand appointed witnesses are supposed to preach the gospel (which i won't discuss now because some people find me extreme).

 

[presidente]

garee do you have a habit of misspelling 'bringing' as 'brining' or do you just cut and paste the same misunderstandings of scripture over and over again.

 

[cv5]

Gifts are signs to confirm the message of the gospel and the gifted should never be in doubt as to what gift they possess. Gifts should never be incidental because it is God working through the gifted-so the gifted should be knowing from the onset that they can prophesy or do miracles or heal or speak in tongues.

In your case, you have been speaking in tongues but have evidence from what others do, never yourself. Is the spirit in you different from what others have?

Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it.

Heb 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.2For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

These verses confirm the purpose of the gifts, it is always about the gospel so that people may believe. The scope is the kingdom of God, anything beyond that is not a gift from God.
According to Heb 2, the gospel was to be preached first by the Lord himself, then the disciples (1st hand witnesses) and finally the those that were appointed to spread the gospel to ends of the earth being given the gifts to confirm their message. Anything beyond that is questionable and indeed there's a good reason why only 1st hand appointed witnesses are supposed to preach the gospel (which i won't discuss now because some people find me extreme).

"Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it."

We all know that the best manuscripts do not admit this entry. It is very likely a comment added later by a scribe.

 

[Waggles]

Waggles, can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that no speaking in tongues equals no indwelling Holy Spirit.
That statement is extreme for Pentecostals. Are you oneness?

In regards to Oneness - NO definitely not. Just Pentecostal ... if you have the indwelling Holy Spirit then you have both the
Father and the Son.

The scriptures clearly teach us in Mark 16, Acts and the epistles that speaking in tongues is praying in the Spirit.
For example: Acts 8:
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ,
they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the
miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them
Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Here is the first teaching that disciples are not automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit; and also that there is a
distinct sign (evidence) to confirm baptism of the Holy Spirit in order to avoid competing claims for such, and the confusion
that would inevitably lead to a multitude of gospels.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 19:

 

[Waggles]

We all know that the best manuscripts do not admit this entry. It is very likely a comment added later by a scribe.

complete rubbish you are merely attempting to justify your unbelief.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Untrue. Praying in the Spirit is praying in tongues.
No praying in tongues = no indwelling Holy Spirit.
Tongues is the evidence of truly being baptised in the Holy Spirit.
The sign promised by Jesus.
Confusion and arguments arise because the majority of non-spirit-filled Christians deny the truth of the scriptures and claim to also
have the indwelling Holy Spirit because the founders of their denomination tell them that they have received the Holy Spirit
according to their own theology.

God himself confirms that "praying in the language that I have given you" is praying in the Spirit many, many times over through
the operation of the gift of prophecy spoken at our meetings.
There is no higher authority than God in determining the truth of doctrine.

Complete rubbish

 

[Noose]

In regards to Oneness - NO definitely not. Just Pentecostal ... if you have the indwelling Holy Spirit then you have both the
Father and the Son.

The scriptures clearly teach us in Mark 16, Acts and the epistles that speaking in tongues is praying in the Spirit.
For example: Acts 8:
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ,
they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the
miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them
Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Here is the first teaching that disciples are not automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit; and also that there is a
distinct sign (evidence) to confirm baptism of the Holy Spirit in order to avoid competing claims for such, and the confusion
that would inevitably lead to a multitude of gospels.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 19:

Great passage but i have a few concerns:

Acts 8:13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. ......
18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

The person who is said to have believed the gospel and was baptized in the name of the Lord was a few days later told that he was not part of the ministry and was a captive of sin and had to repent, could it be that the words 'believed and baptized' as used in this passage only mean attracted?

And why is that only Peter and John could lay hands on them for the indwelling of the Holy spirit and not Phillip?

 

[presidente]

In regards to Oneness - NO definitely not. Just Pentecostal ... if you have the indwelling Holy Spirit then you have both the
Father and the Son.

The scriptures clearly teach us in Mark 16, Acts and the epistles that speaking in tongues is praying in the Spirit.
For example: Acts 8:
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ,
they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the
miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them
Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Here is the first teaching that disciples are not automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit; and also that there is a
distinct sign (evidence) to confirm baptism of the Holy Spirit in order to avoid competing claims for such, and the confusion
that would inevitably lead to a multitude of gospels.

If you will notice there in Acts 8, there is no reference to speaking in tongues. Pentecostals assume it happened because of assuming the initial evidence doctrine.

Let's consider the evidence for the initial evidence doctrine. There are different versions of it. One is that whenever someone is baptized with the Holy Ghost (which is seen as an experience subsequent to salvation), he or she will speak in tongues. Another is that the individual is able to speak in tongues, but may not necessarily do so.

Really we have one case where they all spake in tongues, Acts 2. In another case, Acts 19, they spake in tongues and prophesied.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 19:

If all of them spoke in tongues and half of them prophesied, the way it is worded would be true. If they all prophesied and half of them spoke in tongues, the wording of the passage would be true. if half spoke in tongues and half prophesied, it would be true. If representatives of the group spoke in tongues and prophesied it would be true. Consider that when Mary of Bethany anointed Jesus with precious ointment 'they' said why wasn't it sold and given to the poor. Another gospel specifies that it was Judas Iscariot who uttered the words.

In Acts 10, they spoke in tongues and magnified God. If half spoke in tongues and half magnified God in a commonly understood language, the wording of the passage could describe that situation, too.

So there was one occasion where we know they all spoke in tongues. There is also how the phrases are used, using filled with the Spirit, baptized with the Spirit, receive the Spirit. Zecharias was filled with the Spirit and prophesied. Paul says to be filled with the Spirit, speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Speaking in tongues is not the only type of utterance the Bible associates with being filled with the Spirit.

If we applied the same sort of reasoning to other things, then couldn't we come up with some strange doctrine.

Compare the argument for the initial evidence doctrine with the argument for a doctrine that everyone who goes to Mt. Sinai hears the audible voice of God.

Argument 1.
-- In Acts 2, those who were baptized with the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues.
-- In Acts 10, those who were baptized with the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues.
-- In Acts 19, those who were baptized with the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues.
Conclusion--everyone who is baptized with the Holy Ghost speaks in tongues....true or false?

Argument 2.
--Moses went to Mt. Sinai and heard the audible voice of God.
--The nation of Israel went to Mt. Sinai and heard the audible voice of God.
--Elijah went to Mt. Sinai and heard the audible voice of God.
Conclusion--everyone who goes to Mt. Sinai hears the audible voice of God....true or false?

Do you think every tourist who goes to Mt. Sinai is going to hear God? If that's the wrong mountain, and it's really another one, does any visitor to that mountain hear an audible voice? If you reject argument 2, why would you accept argument 1?

Looking through Acts, it sure seems pretty normal that someone who is baptized with the Holy Spirit may speak in tongues. I experienced that, too. But there weren't people present recognizing the language like in Acts 2. I don't think that's necessary for it to be speaking in tongues because apparently that wasn't happening in Corinth and tongues were interpreted by means of a gift of the Spirit.

Do you believe that those who have not spoken in tongues do not have the seal of the Spirit or the earnest of the Spirit? What about someone who exhibits fruit of the Spirit? What about people who God uses to heal who do not speak in tongues. I have a friend who has never spoken in tongues who interprets tongues. Sometimes someone else will beat him to the punch and give the same interpretation he was going to give.

 

[presidente]

Great passage but i have a few concerns:

Acts 8:13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. ......
18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

The person who is said to have believed the gospel and was baptized in the name of the Lord was a few days later told that he was not part of the ministry and was a captive of sin and had to repent, could it be that the words 'believed and baptized' as used in this passage only mean attracted?

And why is that only Peter and John could lay hands on them for the indwelling of the Holy spirit and not Phillip?

Maybe Philip did not have grace in that area, did not have faith for it. It may have a little to do with the scope of an evangelist's ministry when compared to the ministry of apostles and elders. Philip may have also been new to miracle ministry. A lot of ministry was probably still done by the apostles and focused on the apostles. A while later, elders would be collecting money and handling some of the more difficult cases of church politics. Maybe they hadn't trained up leaders to do some of these other things they had been doing.

The reason Simon of Samaria could have no part in this type of ministry was because his heart was not right before God, according to Peter. I do not believe that was the reason in Philip's case.

 

[presidente]

"Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it."

We all know that the best manuscripts do not admit this entry. It is very likely a comment added later by a scribe.

An opinion I have read or heard is that the 'better manuscripts' have it, but that the larger number of manuscripts do not. Egypt's dry climate allows an papyrus, parchment, and paintings to survive. But some Christians believe Antioch or Byzantium had better manuscripts. Some methodologies rely on number of manuscripts, which slants the data toward Egyptian manuscripts.

Mark might have added an ending later or some early copyist in Egypt may have run out of sheep's hide.

 

[cv5]

An opinion I have read or heard is that the 'better manuscripts' have it, but that the larger number of manuscripts do not. Egypt's dry climate allows an papyrus, parchment, and paintings to survive. But some Christians believe Antioch or Byzantium had better manuscripts. Some methodologies rely on number of manuscripts, which slants the data toward Egyptian manuscripts.

Mark might have added an ending later or some early copyist in Egypt may have run out of sheep's hide.

The ending does not fit. It appears to be pulled from one of the other synoptics....I cannot remember which.....but it is a good match.

 

[presidente]

Gifts are signs to confirm the message of the gospel and the gifted should never be in doubt as to what gift they possess. Gifts should never be incidental because it is God working through the gifted-so the gifted should be knowing from the onset that they can prophesy or do miracles or heal or speak in tongues.

In your case, you have been speaking in tongues but have evidence from what others do, never yourself. Is the spirit in you different from what others have?

Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it.

Heb 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.2For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

These verses confirm the purpose of the gifts, it is always about the gospel so that people may believe. The scope is the kingdom of God, anything beyond that is not a gift from God.

We should also consider the rest of the Bible. In I Corinthians 12, we see these gifts are given to the body of Christ 'to profit withal.' Other translations render that along the lines of 'for the common good.' The passage goes on to describe members of the body ministering to one another. I Corinthians 14:12 says that forasmuch as you are zealous for spiritual gifts, seek to excel for the edification of the church.

So, in general, I would surmise the purpose of spiritual gifts is to:
1. edify the church.
2. bear witness to the message.

We might also mention other purposes like glorifying God, and anything God wants to do in a particular situation. Telling God He cannot do something because of a loose pattern we see in the Bible is not a good idea.

Point 1 above is internal, ministering in the church. Point 2 is usually external, related to evangelism.

Peter did miracles in Jerusalem, as did other apostles. This bore witness to the message there. But Peter did not go to Joppa and say, "The message has already been confirmed in Jerusalem, so if the word has already been confirmed, it does not have to be confirmed again. Me writing the miracles down and having you read them and telling you about them serves the exact same purpose as if Aeneaus were healed over here. So he doesn't need to be healed. He can just stay lame."

According to Heb 2, the gospel was to be preached first by the Lord himself, then the disciples (1st hand witnesses) and finally the those that were appointed to spread the gospel to ends of the earth being given the gifts to confirm their message. Anything beyond that is questionable and indeed there's a good reason why only 1st hand appointed witnesses are supposed to preach the gospel (which i won't discuss now because some people find me extreme).

That is certainly extreme, especially since the Bible teaches that God gifts other people to be evangelists, etc., and elders who rule well are worthy of double honor, especially those who devote themselves to preaching and teaching. Timothy was a preacher, too, proclaiming the gospel to unbelievers, doing the work of an evangelist.

I do find some of your views extreme: no real bodily resurection. Isn't it true that you do not believe the church should assemble?

 

[Pendleys]

Tongues shall fail, prophesies shall fail but the true receiving of the Holy Spirit will lead us into life everlasting. The Holy Spirit comes to guide us into all truth. Tongues does have its purpose but it's not a must have to be saved, its leading is

 

[Noose]

We should also consider the rest of the Bible. In I Corinthians 12, we see these gifts are given to the body of Christ 'to profit withal.' Other translations render that along the lines of 'for the common good.' The passage goes on to describe members of the body ministering to one another. I Corinthians 14:12 says that forasmuch as you are zealous for spiritual gifts, seek to excel for the edification of the church.

So, in general, I would surmise the purpose of spiritual gifts is to:
1. edify the church.
2. bear witness to the message.

I do find some of your views extreme: no real bodily resurection. Isn't it true that you do not believe the church should assemble?

I do not believe people should assemble so that a self appointed preacher/evangelist can pass down to them their version of understanding. They are not 1st hand witnesses to the gospel and this brings me to my next point which i was trying to avoid because you'll still find it extreme.

Q1. Why must a prophet die in 'Jerusalem' (Luke 13:33)? Why must a prophet die at all?
Q2. Why was it a must for Jesus to go first before the spirit would come (John 16:7)?

The things you have said above are true but only true for the apostles and the 1st century church whose mandate was to spread the gospel to all nations which they did successfully.

My point is, the words of Jesus are spirit:

John 6:62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before? 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.64 However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

And the only way the spirit is transferred from the speaker to the hearer is when the speaker dies (release His spirit/give up His ghost) having delivered the words to the hearer, the spirit then lives on through the spoken words which are now with the hearer who believed. This is what is called baptism and for that reason, a messenger/prophet must die in Jerusalem (Jerusalem simply means believers).

Jesus said He had so much to tell them (Disciples) but they could not bear at that moment so the spirit of truth would guide them to understand God's word (gospel) so that they could in the same manner deliver it to the church by also dying for the gospel.
This is something they (Apostles) knew very well and so many times Paul confirmed that he is being offered as a drink sacrifice for the sake of the gospel. Peter also said the same thing- so they knew very well they had to die for the gospel to be effective.

The reason Paul says:

2 Cor 4:
10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

This is what Jesus told some of His disciples:

Mark 10:37 They answered, “Grant that one of us may sit at Your right hand and the other at Your left in Your glory.” 38“You do not know what you are asking,”Jesus replied. “Can you drink the cup I will drink, or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?” 39“We can,” the brothers answered. “You will drink the cup that I drink,” Jesus said, “and you will be baptized with the baptism that I undergo

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!

So, the people appointed to spread the gospel were to die for the gospel to be effective, how then can a preacher in the 21st century purport to preach the gospel if they can not die for it? The spirit of Christ is already here with us and the words of Christ with us (this was not the case in the 1st century), so we only need to read the bible and believe the words of Christ. The church today was supposed to guide people to the scriptures and not to purport to give meaning to give meaning to the scriptures.

 

[Noose]

I do not believe people should assemble so that a self appointed preacher/evangelist can pass down to them their version of understanding. They are not 1st hand witnesses to the gospel and this brings me to my next point which i was trying to avoid because you'll still find it extreme.

Q1. Why must a prophet die in 'Jerusalem' (Luke 13:33)? Why must a prophet die at all?
Q2. Why was it a must for Jesus to go first before the spirit would come (John 16:7)?

The things you have said above are true but only true for the apostles and the 1st century church whose mandate was to spread the gospel to all nations which they did successfully.


So, the people appointed to spread the gospel were to die for the gospel to be effective, how then can a preacher in the 21st century purport to preach the gospel if they can not die for it? The spirit of Christ is already here with us and the words of Christ with us (this was not the case in the 1st century), so we only need to read the bible and believe the words of Christ. The church today was supposed to guide people to the scriptures and not to purport to give meaning to give meaning to the scriptures.

Yes Timothy and others evangelized but what was the scope of their evangelism:

1 Tim 1:
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

2To Timothy my true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.


Apparently, it was to persuade people to bring them to accept the gospel that was being preached by the apostles.

 

[Noose]

And:

Luke 10:
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two a others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

5“When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

8“When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

13“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. b

16“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

The statement in verse 16 is true only for the 1st century church, it can not be said of the 21st century church where people appoint themselves to preach the word of God. Which of the pastors today qualifies for the above? who can i confidently say, i'll listen to because i'd be listening to Jesus? And what new thing is Jesus saying through men today that is not recorded in the bible?

Our work today is to bring people to the scriptures not to preach the gospel.

 

[notuptome]

'Languages' is another way of translated 'glossais'. It is the very exact same word, even the same form of the word, found in Acts 2:4 where the disciples spoke in tongues.

Same word used in James to denote the tongue as an organ of speech.

Mark 16:17 does not say a heart of stone or a heart of flesh. It says new tongues.

Ezek 11:19 would have been the passage the Jews would have known.

The exact same word is used. Mark 16:17 says they will speak with new tongues/languages. Acts 2:4 says they spake with other tongues/languages as the Spirit gave them utterances. In Acts 10, it happened among the Gentiles also.

Mark 16:17 is not new languages. Acts 2:4 is speaking and being heard in native languages. Not really making your point. Most certainly not what passes for tongues in the modern church.

I think this is just a case of your not being able to see the forest or the trees.

Depends on which side of the forest or the trees you are on. One side has biblical support the other side just wishful thinking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger