Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning
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Note FGC continues to preach his CTS and defines the word as "delivered." But only in this life, according to FGC and PB's.
But simple context destroys his notion. Note Mark 16:16 and the distinction it makes:
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
The believer above will be saved, and the unbeliever will be condemned, or damned.
The contrast is crystal clear in that it is speaking of where unto the believer is saved, which would be the opposite of where an unbeliever will spend eternity. The contrast in the text is purposeful.
We also see clearly the necessity of believing the Gospel for this salvation, contrary to what FGC teaches.
But simple context destroys his notion. Note Mark 16:16 and the distinction it makes:
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
The believer above will be saved, and the unbeliever will be condemned, or damned.
The contrast is crystal clear in that it is speaking of where unto the believer is saved, which would be the opposite of where an unbeliever will spend eternity. The contrast in the text is purposeful.
We also see clearly the necessity of believing the Gospel for this salvation, contrary to what FGC teaches.
Your quote; "There is nowhere that says a man is saved before believing" Eph 2:5 - Even when we were dead (spiritually dead) in sins hath he quickened us together with Christ. No spiritual life before regeneration. Spiritual life after regeneration. The natural man cannot believe in spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14). I think I have told you before, but I will tell you again. The gospel, if understood, can deliver (save) you here on earth, but the gospel can not deliver you eternally. If you were delivered by obeying the gospel, it would be deliverance by the works of man. Paul preached the gospel relentlessly to the children of God, because the gospel is not telling them how to GET delivered eternally but it is God's instructions as to how God wants his children to live their lives here on earth. I will comment more on your post later, got to run.
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I think I've told you before, that the above is nonsense and disproven with Scripture. I provided Scripture from Mark disproving yout error. But you don't go there -- instead you keep repeating what you think.
OK, hold on there a second, then all who believe the Gospel, even in your heretical CTS are saved in time by their works. Of course that is what you believe anyhow in the end. IN fact, you believe persons are saved eternally through works, that is, if PB theology is consistent church to church.
The fact remains you simply don't even listen to what I've stated and just ramble on oblivious to this.
Did you see where I claimed belief is evidence of conversion, not the cause, or did you just conveniently over look that fact so you can keep beating your straw man?
Nope, wrong again, this is you adding to the word of God your PB theology, it is not in the text. I am still waiting for you to prove this from the text. Show us all that it is in the text that salvation here is only "in time." Thank you.
The text I gave says so that they too can be saved, and this saved is contextually eternal life, as throughout the epistle, not simply so they can live a good life on earth. Again, you're adding what you've been indoctrinated with into Scripture, so what you believe is just not there.
OK, hold on there a second, then all who believe the Gospel, even in your heretical CTS are saved in time by their works. Of course that is what you believe anyhow in the end. IN fact, you believe persons are saved eternally through works, that is, if PB theology is consistent church to church.
The fact remains you simply don't even listen to what I've stated and just ramble on oblivious to this.
Did you see where I claimed belief is evidence of conversion, not the cause, or did you just conveniently over look that fact so you can keep beating your straw man?
Nope, wrong again, this is you adding to the word of God your PB theology, it is not in the text. I am still waiting for you to prove this from the text. Show us all that it is in the text that salvation here is only "in time." Thank you.
The text I gave says so that they too can be saved, and this saved is contextually eternal life, as throughout the epistle, not simply so they can live a good life on earth. Again, you're adding what you've been indoctrinated with into Scripture, so what you believe is just not there.
So, the happy hunting ground and them leaving the hearts of animals in the forest so that their spirits could freely roam means they’re regenerated?
Where does it say they knew God came as a man, lived a sinless life, was betrayed into the hands of wicked men, crucified after being tortured, was buried, three days later rose from the grave and then ascended to the Father and is sitting at His right hand?
You are preaching another gospel my friend. Most religious cults believe in a hearafter. I guess those Pagan Egyptians went to heaven because they took their animals with them(their pets were killed and buried with their owners when they died) to be in the afterlife?
Please repent of this false gospel my friend.
Where does it say they knew God came as a man, lived a sinless life, was betrayed into the hands of wicked men, crucified after being tortured, was buried, three days later rose from the grave and then ascended to the Father and is sitting at His right hand?
You are preaching another gospel my friend. Most religious cults believe in a hearafter. I guess those Pagan Egyptians went to heaven because they took their animals with them(their pets were killed and buried with their owners when they died) to be in the afterlife?
Please repent of this false gospel my friend.
Yes, The deliverance we receive here on earth is by our good works in obeying the instructions that God has given his children, which is what the inspired word of God is. There is a difference in being delivered here on earth by our good works and being delivered eternally which is by God's grace, without the works of man. I don't know where you are getting your information of the Primitive Baptist from, because you don't sound like you know what we believe. Yes, belief is the cause of conversion and belief and conversion follows regeneration. Deliverance here in the world (which does not relate to eternal deliverance) is only given to those that are already God's children, when they repent, accept, confess, come unto an understanding of the gospel. and do any of the other things that God commands them to do. If you want a list of all of the timely salvation just list all the scriptures that you believe to be referring to eternal salvation and you will have you a complete list. Deliverance (salvation) is throughout the scriptures but I doubt if God will reveal it to you until you give up on your ability to understand it. Pride is at the top of the list of seven things that God hates.
Nope. Sorry.
You keep saying this, the above, to ad nauseam, post after post after post after post after post. But I get it, it's what you have been indoctrinated with by PB's and this is what you all go on about incessantly.
You skip over incidences in Scripture that I've given you which contextually prove your theory false, showing the salvation contrast of eternal salvation via Gospel belief, or damnation for unbelief. A far cry from some temporary deliverance nonsense you and other PB's came up with not too long ago -- something not seen within the church once until you all dreamed it up.
The sentence for the belief or disbelief are eternal in their consequences, that's what the context shows, but you deny it.
That, and you've provided zero Scripture to support your time salvation theory.
Not one.
And, you've yet to provide any Scripture that proves native Americans were regenerate.
Every one of your posts on CC have been leading and lending themselves to "time salvation." It is all you care to speak of.
Wonder why that is, that you perpetually repeat yourself, fail to look at any refutation or address them contextually, and, time after time fail to offer any Biblical evidence to support your theories? You do realize what groups that deny context and take Scripture out of context to develop doctrine on them are called, correct?
Bro, you are thoroughly hoodwinked.
You keep saying this, the above, to ad nauseam, post after post after post after post after post. But I get it, it's what you have been indoctrinated with by PB's and this is what you all go on about incessantly.
You skip over incidences in Scripture that I've given you which contextually prove your theory false, showing the salvation contrast of eternal salvation via Gospel belief, or damnation for unbelief. A far cry from some temporary deliverance nonsense you and other PB's came up with not too long ago -- something not seen within the church once until you all dreamed it up.
The sentence for the belief or disbelief are eternal in their consequences, that's what the context shows, but you deny it.
That, and you've provided zero Scripture to support your time salvation theory.
Not one.
And, you've yet to provide any Scripture that proves native Americans were regenerate.
Every one of your posts on CC have been leading and lending themselves to "time salvation." It is all you care to speak of.
Wonder why that is, that you perpetually repeat yourself, fail to look at any refutation or address them contextually, and, time after time fail to offer any Biblical evidence to support your theories? You do realize what groups that deny context and take Scripture out of context to develop doctrine on them are called, correct?
Bro, you are thoroughly hoodwinked.
I guess you and I do not believe as much alike as I thought. It surprises me that you list all of these conditions that man has to know before God can save him eternally, such as, to know that God came as a man, lived a sinless life, was betrayed into the hands of wicked men, crucified after being tortured, was buried three days later, rose from the grave and then ascended to the Father and is sitting at his right hand. Where does that leave all of the old testament saints that were given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Christ Jesus's death on the cross saved (eternally delivered) all of the elect, in covenant. Eternal salvation was accomplished on the cross. After the elect are born into this world as spiritually dead because of Adams sin, sometime between their natural birth and their natural death, God regenerates them to be born of the Holy Spirit. God's eternal deliverance is by his grace without any conditions of man. After regeneration and coming unto a knowledge of the truth, they began to understand all of these conditions you have listed.
I believe that I have responded to all of the scriptures that you have given me that you think debunks my belief. If there are any debunk scriptures that I have not responded to, it is just my oversight. I try to deflate them as they are given to me. Sorry if I missed any. Call my attention to them, and I will respond.
It's there, you just fail to see it. Could be because of your dependence upon yourself for your eternal deliverance.
It's there, you just fail to see it. Could be because of your dependence upon yourself for your eternal deliverance.
You are giving the natural man as described in 1 Cor 2:14 the ability to believe in spiritual things and that is just not what this scripture says. Who believes spiritual things = those who have been regenerated and given the Holy Spirit. Those who do not believe spiritual things is the natural man, void of the Holy Spirit. It's that simple. Believing the gospel is not the cause of your eternal salvation, but the evidence that you already have eternal salvation.
You keep saying that over and over to ad nauseam and it doesn't make it true by repeating it. Do you think if you keep repeating the same old thing it becomes true bro? That is not what I believe.
The real issue is that YOU make spiritually dead people regenerate in your false gospel of CTS and that's a fact. You have it completely backwards as to who has the 1 Corinthians 2:14 person all wrong. Another fact.
The real issue is that YOU make spiritually dead people regenerate in your false gospel of CTS and that's a fact. You have it completely backwards as to who has the 1 Corinthians 2:14 person all wrong. Another fact.
God spoke to the OT saints personally, we both agree here my friend. However, Hebrews 1 remedies that as now if God speaks to us, it is solely via His word. God no longer speaks to people like He did in the OT.
Romans 10:8ff tells us how the elect are saved. I will insert my exegesis with parentheses inside the verses.
Romans 10:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?(Paul begins asking a bunch of rhetorical questions and the obvious answer(s) are they can not) and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?(they can not) and how shall they hear without a preacher?(they can not)
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?(they can not) as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!(here we see how wonderful it is to witness to the lost. No one my friend, who has never had a bible, never had someone witness to them, can know the gospel, which saves people from their sins. God uses means, the gospel is that means, to save people)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.(here is where the proverbial rubber meets the road my friend. Faith does not come from believing in an hereafter, such as a happy hunting ground, a nirvana, an ill-perceived paradise to go to after death, but from God’s word. Seeing the lost are justified by faith, and faith come solely from the word of God, no one who dies without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, dies regenerate, as your group believes. It’s an anti-biblical stance you’re taking to hold up your false gospel my friend.)
Romans 10:8ff tells us how the elect are saved. I will insert my exegesis with parentheses inside the verses.
Romans 10:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?(Paul begins asking a bunch of rhetorical questions and the obvious answer(s) are they can not) and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?(they can not) and how shall they hear without a preacher?(they can not)
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?(they can not) as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!(here we see how wonderful it is to witness to the lost. No one my friend, who has never had a bible, never had someone witness to them, can know the gospel, which saves people from their sins. God uses means, the gospel is that means, to save people)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.(here is where the proverbial rubber meets the road my friend. Faith does not come from believing in an hereafter, such as a happy hunting ground, a nirvana, an ill-perceived paradise to go to after death, but from God’s word. Seeing the lost are justified by faith, and faith come solely from the word of God, no one who dies without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, dies regenerate, as your group believes. It’s an anti-biblical stance you’re taking to hold up your false gospel my friend.)
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Here is the gist of it all if we take up and believe the false gospel of CTS and join in with the PB's:
We can all sit back, sip lemonade, and determine who the elect are, and who they aren't, and know that they are already on their way to heaven, even having never heard of Christ or the Gospel. Heck, some of them are even on the broad road that leads to destruction.
We can also decide whether or not we want to preach the Gospel. Naw, no need for that! Add in a little mockery of missionaries and say they are only out there for "love of fame."
We can then sit back all smug. And humble. Yes, we can sit back and watch it all on God's big screen -- we have all the answers and know the secrets, and know who the elect are. We can tell -- we're Primitive Baptists, and we're humble, just ask us.
If you think that is over-reacting or a straw man, think again. It is exactly what it is.
We can all sit back, sip lemonade, and determine who the elect are, and who they aren't, and know that they are already on their way to heaven, even having never heard of Christ or the Gospel. Heck, some of them are even on the broad road that leads to destruction.
We can also decide whether or not we want to preach the Gospel. Naw, no need for that! Add in a little mockery of missionaries and say they are only out there for "love of fame."
We can then sit back all smug. And humble. Yes, we can sit back and watch it all on God's big screen -- we have all the answers and know the secrets, and know who the elect are. We can tell -- we're Primitive Baptists, and we're humble, just ask us.
If you think that is over-reacting or a straw man, think again. It is exactly what it is.
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Oh con'traire P4T! Con'traire!
Although, I'm not very "theologically indoctrinated", so, very much of what I've learned concerning God's grace, hyper, or not, of calvinism, hyper or not, baptist, primitive, hard shell OR soft shell
, or many other denominationalists traditions of man, comes from what I read in this here BDF forum! (true story)Nothing in Scripture backs up FGC's claim. To this? And, THIS comes right from the Savior's lips, to John's ears!
Luke 9
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Now? To whom is Jesus referring to here?
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are "NOT of THIS fold": them ALSO I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
To me? Jesus is referring to the "elect", or "Remnant." (or) Those who have been "placed" within the same "flesh bodies" as that of "natural man!" These? Are of the Father's fold, if you will. Same flesh bodies as every one! Save for one unique difference, which keeps us at odds, with Natural man. A Memory! A memory, whether it comes through while dreaming, or, "just a feeling!" Of, some time past, where we STOOD WITH God, in warring against the ATTEMPTED overthrow of our Father's throne!
Oh con'traire P4T! Con'traire!
Although, I'm not very "theologically indoctrinated", so, very much of what I've learned concerning God's grace, hyper, or not, of calvinism, hyper or not, baptist, primitive, hard shell OR soft shell, or many other denominationalists traditions of man, comes from what I read in this here BDF forum! (true story)
Nothing in Scripture backs up FGC's claim. To this? And, THIS comes right from the Savior's lips, to John's ears!
Luke 9
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Now? To whom is Jesus referring to here?
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are "NOT of THIS fold": them ALSO I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
To me? Jesus is referring to the "elect", or "Remnant." (or) Those who have been "placed" within the same "flesh bodies" as that of "natural man!" These? Are of the Father's fold, if you will. Same flesh bodies as every one! Save for one unique difference, which keeps us at odds, with Natural man. A Memory! A memory, whether it comes through while dreaming, or, "just a feeling!" Of, some time past, where we STOOD WITH God, in warring against the ATTEMPTED overthrow of our Father's throne!
Although, I'm not very "theologically indoctrinated", so, very much of what I've learned concerning God's grace, hyper, or not, of calvinism, hyper or not, baptist, primitive, hard shell OR soft shell
, or many other denominationalists traditions of man, comes from what I read in this here BDF forum! (true story)Nothing in Scripture backs up FGC's claim. To this? And, THIS comes right from the Savior's lips, to John's ears!
Luke 9
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Now? To whom is Jesus referring to here?
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are "NOT of THIS fold": them ALSO I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
To me? Jesus is referring to the "elect", or "Remnant." (or) Those who have been "placed" within the same "flesh bodies" as that of "natural man!" These? Are of the Father's fold, if you will. Same flesh bodies as every one! Save for one unique difference, which keeps us at odds, with Natural man. A Memory! A memory, whether it comes through while dreaming, or, "just a feeling!" Of, some time past, where we STOOD WITH God, in warring against the ATTEMPTED overthrow of our Father's throne!
Wow, you've missed the point entirely bro! Obviously you don't know what we're discussing or you're thoroughly confused, or both?
What makes you think that I don't believe God's elect are out there? This doesn't mean they are now regenerate. The Scriptures you've provided don't back up conditional time salvation or FGC's teachings. Luke 9:49-50 is almost always misapplied, and you're doing this yourself.
The point is that the elect are not regenerate prior to hearing the Gospel. He stated the Gospel is conveying deliverance through the lack of knowledge. Like in: they don't know they're born from above already, but we let them know this by telling them the "gospel." That's what you're agreeing with whether you know it or not.
It's all summed up in one word: Baloney.
So you're agreeing with that nonsense, or you're not smelling what you just stepped in?
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