Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

[preacher4truth]

It has become necessary to post this here since we have this false doctrine being peddled on CC of late. Believe it or not, I care about people and wish to help protect the flock from error! Please note and take time to read Acts 20:28-30 and other Scriptures provided.

Please do not be deceived by the "Conditional Time Salvation" heresy promoted and peddled by Primitive Baptists otherwise known as "Hardshells" or "Hardshell Baptists". They are merely seeking converts to their teaching while at the same time being anti-evangelistic. There has to be another outlet when one turns to such false teaching, and it extends itself in them trying to reach others with their false gospel and to make "converts."

Nearly every post will be about this heresy, they focus on this to poison the well and deceive others.

Understand who this is coming from, and realize that Hardshells or Primitive Baptists are against these things:

1) That preaching the Gospel is God's means to save his people with an eternal salvation in Christ; 1 Corinthian 1:18; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 1, 2 &c.

2) They are against missionary work.

3) They stand against contextual eternal salvation as revealed in the NT Scriptures.

These deny what they call "means salvation" (their terminology) and will ridicule others for their "Gospel means" preaching, in other words for believing Scripture that God uses this preaching to save his people, eternally. Note Romans 10:13-17 for example. So they would call others who believe this in Romans "Gospel means" preachers or "means preachers" and it is meant to be derogatory.

The logical conclusion of their teaching is hyper-Calvinism, and is totally anti-evangelistic, anti-missionary, anti-Gospel. The latter they will deny because they've truncated the Gospel into their meaning of "gospel," making it completely false; note Galatians 1:8-10. They will also deny they are in any fashion "Calvinistic" but only to avoid the fitting label of "hyper-Calvinism."

Please read these excerpts that explain this better than I can. I will provide a link at the end or further reading:

"Secrecy" of some sort is a characteristic of a cult. Christians have their "secrets" (Psa. 25:14; Prov. 3:32), but the distinctive secrets of the Hardshell cult are not the secrets of God or of His kingdom."

"Their primary "secret" revelation concerns the doctrine they call "Time Salvation." You have to be trained in Hardshell "dogma" to know all that the words convey. What the Hardshells believe the terminology, "Time Salvation," represents would never cross the average Bible reader's mind. You have to hear it from a Hardshell to be introduced to and informed in the meaning of its theological “jargon.”

"It is an integral part of the Hardshell DEFENSE and APOLOGETIC, for their "Spirit Alone" and "No-Means Regeneration" theories, to get their opponents or would be "converts" to inbibe <sic> all the teachings involved in this doctrine of "Time Salvation."

"It will become obvious to most who read this essay on Hardshellism, that these Hardshells, who have historically opposed any thing "new," i.e. "inventions," have themselves, ironically and hypocritically, introduced many new things under the Baptist and Christian name, at least in doctrine."

Read more here.

 

[tourist]

That sums it up in a nutshell.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here is some more concerning this cultic teaching. Keep in mind, I am not saying these folks are lost, that's "above my pay grade."

They are however, peddling a false gospel. These are also known as "Old School Baptist's".

Here is another link:

http://www.the-remnant.com/conditional1.htm

 

[Hevosmies]

I will be quite honest. I still dont understand what is time salvation I think i'm just too dumb. Could you translate it from english to simpleton?

WHAT is time salvation?

Also, if they dont believe in preaching the gospel, how do they handle Matthew 28:19-20? Ive never heard of this group before. There are tons of verses about evangelizing, what do they do with that?

Also, how do they know if someone is elect without preaching to them and see if they respond?

 

[preacher4truth]

I will be quite honest. I still dont understand what is time salvation I think i'm just too dumb. Could you translate it from english to simpleton?

WHAT is time salvation?

Also, if they dont believe in preaching the gospel, how do they handle Matthew 28:19-20? Ive never heard of this group before. There are tons of verses about evangelizing, what do they do with that?

Also, how do they know if someone is elect without preaching to them and see if they respond?

That's LOT'S of questions bro! LOL!!!!!!!!! Good ones.

Did you read the articles?

Time salvation denies the fact that our salvation is eternal, and will culminate in glorification as its end result. They speak of only a deliverance here on earth, denying the context of Scripture. It would be against the reality of Philippians 1:6 for all the saved.

They are against evangelising, so they must twist those passages to fir their theology. God saves people mystically, without man doing a thing. For instance I know of one who talks about Ghandi, and says even though he doesn't know it, he's born again and will be "in heaven" because he can tell he's saved. So, they look at a person who does good deeds and deem them regenerate. Things along those lines.

 

[Hevosmies]

That's LOT'S of questions bro! LOL!!!!!!!!! Good ones.

Did you read the articles?

Time salvation denies the fact that our salvation is eternal, and will culminate in glorification as its end result. They speak of only a deliverance here on earth, denying the context of Scripture. It would be against the reality of Philippians 1:6 for all the saved.

They are against evangelising, so they must twist those passages to fir their theology. God saves people mystically, without man doing a thing. For instance I know of one who talks about Ghandi, and says even though he doesn't know it, he's born again and will be "in heaven" because he can tell he's saved. So, they look at a person who does good deeds and deem them regenerate. Things along those lines.

Wow. Thats ridicilous and unbiblical.

How are people getting into these dumb beliefs? Its not even a smart deception. My goodness.

Can you tell me how they twist Matthew 28:19-20? Because i just dont see ANY WAY to twist it to say "dont evangelize". Thats some next level twisting.

 

[preacher4truth]

Wow. Thats ridicilous and unbiblical.

How are people getting into these dumb beliefs? Its not even a smart deception. My goodness.

Can you tell me how they twist Matthew 28:19-20? Because i just dont see ANY WAY to twist it to say "dont evangelize". Thats some next level twisting.

I believe they look at that mandate as for a different era, but not for now.

 

[Hevosmies]

I believe they look at that mandate as for a different era, but not for now.

Sounds good but it says Jesus would be with them till the end of the world. OH WELL. Heresies dont major on rightly dividing the word of truth nor truth.

I am too curious and I will actually listen to some primitive baptist sermons and see HOW on earth do they navigate the scriptures without their congregation going "HEY!"

 

[preacher4truth]

Sounds good but it says Jesus would be with them till the end of the world. OH WELL. Heresies dont major on rightly dividing the word of truth nor truth.

I am too curious and I will actually listen to some primitive baptist sermons and see HOW on earth do they navigate the scriptures without their congregation going "HEY!"

They're typically very small congregations which believe they have the monopoly on truth. The infamous Westboro Baptist Churchclaims to be PB, but, I don't know if they are truly.

People are shocked generally when they hear of conditional time salvation heresy.

Well, that's because it isn't true, and the church has never heard of it before in some 2000 years. That right there? Huge red flag.

Very very proud group as I've pointed out to another on here, lot's of "I's" if you know what I mean, yet, speak oft' of their humility. Pet peeve of mine, I mean, why be proud of your humility, doesn't that cancel it out?

 

[Hevosmies]

They're typically very small congregations which believe they have the monopoly on truth. The infamous Westboro Baptist Churchclaims to be PB, but, I don't know if they are truly.

People are shocked generally when they hear of conditional time salvation heresy.

Well, that's because it isn't true, and the church has never heard of it before in some 2000 years. That right there? Huge red flag.

Very very proud group as I've pointed out to another on here, lot's of "I's" if you know what I mean, yet, speak oft' of their humility. Pet peeve of mine, I mean, why be proud of your humility, doesn't that cancel it out?

Id hate to repeat myself but after reading all the articles I still dont understand conditional time salvation lol. English isnt my first language.

does it mean that they believe you cant know you are saved until eternity? Or does it mean you can be saved in time like, from a backpain? but then eternal salvation is a different thing?
Or does it mean basically WORKS SALVATION?

 

[SpoonJuly]

I have been told that these people tend to be rural and somewhat uneducated.
Hate they use the name Baptist because they are not Baptist.

 

[preacher4truth]

Id hate to repeat myself but after reading all the articles I still dont understand conditional time salvation lol. English isnt my first language.

does it mean that they believe you cant know you are saved until eternity? Or does it mean you can be saved in time like, from a backpain? but then eternal salvation is a different thing?
Or does it mean basically WORKS SALVATION?

Pretty much they deny that salvation in the NT is eternal. It is only a salvation "in time" or a deliverance "in time" only. Thus all "true" eternal salvation only takes place mystically -- God does it, and saves the person eternally. This is a total denial of the Gospel means of salvation that God decreed and of which we see in the NT.

As far as works are concerned, one whom I spoke with on numerous occasions would not come out and directly state his beliefs, but would offer links to their heretical teachings. Very coy and secretive. If you cannot come out and state your beliefs openly, then you're in a cult. You see this nowhere practiced by any NT apostle or disciple. The Gospel was plainly preached, the elect were brought in.

Back on the works thing, he would also quote Romans 2, which in the way he misused it he made the Scripture there speak as though we are saved by works. He was using this as his proof text. Keep in mind several cults do this with Romans 2. But, Romans 2 is about judgment, and the indictment by Paul in Romans 3 is that none have ever done the things in Romans 2, all the world is guilty. He does this to shut the mouths of the Jews and prove they too are guilty and need eternal salvation.

If you want the real inside scoop of PB's you'd have to join them and gain trust I suppose.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

It boils down to their interpretation of ‘sozo’.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It has become necessary to post this here since we have this false doctrine being peddled on CC of late. Believe it or not, I care about people and wish to help protect the flock from error! Please note and take time to read Acts 20:28-30 and other Scriptures provided.

Please do not be deceived by the "Conditional Time Salvation" heresy promoted and peddled by Primitive Baptists otherwise known as "Hardshells" or "Hardshell Baptists". They are merely seeking converts to their teaching while at the same time being anti-evangelistic. There has to be another outlet when one turns to such false teaching, and it extends itself in them trying to reach others with their false gospel and to make "converts."

Nearly every post will be about this heresy, they focus on this to poison the well and deceive others.

Understand who this is coming from, and realize that Hardshells or Primitive Baptists are against these things:

1) That preaching the Gospel is God's means to save his people with an eternal salvation in Christ; 1 Corinthian 1:18; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 1, 2 &c.

2) They are against missionary work.

3) They stand against contextual eternal salvation as revealed in the NT Scriptures.

These deny what they call "means salvation" (their terminology) and will ridicule others for their "Gospel means" preaching, in other words for believing Scripture that God uses this preaching to save his people, eternally. Note Romans 10:13-17 for example. So they would call others who believe this in Romans "Gospel means" preachers or "means preachers" and it is meant to be derogatory.

The logical conclusion of their teaching is hyper-Calvinism, and is totally anti-evangelistic, anti-missionary, anti-Gospel. The latter they will deny because they've truncated the Gospel into their meaning of "gospel," making it completely false; note Galatians 1:8-10. They will also deny they are in any fashion "Calvinistic" but only to avoid the fitting label of "hyper-Calvinism."

Please read these excerpts that explain this better than I can. I will provide a link at the end or further reading:

"Secrecy" of some sort is a characteristic of a cult. Christians have their "secrets" (Psa. 25:14; Prov. 3:32), but the distinctive secrets of the Hardshell cult are not the secrets of God or of His kingdom."

"Their primary "secret" revelation concerns the doctrine they call "Time Salvation." You have to be trained in Hardshell "dogma" to know all that the words convey. What the Hardshells believe the terminology, "Time Salvation," represents would never cross the average Bible reader's mind. You have to hear it from a Hardshell to be introduced to and informed in the meaning of its theological “jargon.”

"It is an integral part of the Hardshell DEFENSE and APOLOGETIC, for their "Spirit Alone" and "No-Means Regeneration" theories, to get their opponents or would be "converts" to inbibe <sic> all the teachings involved in this doctrine of "Time Salvation."

"It will become obvious to most who read this essay on Hardshellism, that these Hardshells, who have historically opposed any thing "new," i.e. "inventions," have themselves, ironically and hypocritically, introduced many new things under the Baptist and Christian name, at least in doctrine."

Read more here.

This forum is scriptural exercise to me. We do not convert people to the church. God adds to the church daily such as should be delivered (saved=delivered) timely, of course. Acts 20:28 (preacher4truth) is the instruction as to what the duties of a preacher is; To feed the church (regenerated children of God). It is not a preachers duty to go outside of the church and try to convert (eternally save) souls. God doesen't need any help in doing that, in fact, he took care of that task by his Son going to the cross. The bible is an instruction book telling his children how he prefers them to live their lives while here on earth. It also informs his children how that they were eternally delivered on the cross. 1 Cor 1:18 - Explains who we should be feeding, which are those that are saved because preaching to the natural man that has not been born of the Spirit would think Jesus's doctrine is foolish (1 Cor 2:14). We teach the flock the good news, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which gives them confidence of their eternal deliverance. Rom 1:16 - The gospel is the power of God unto deliverance from the lack of knowledge to every one that believeth. Romans 10 touches on the same topic when Paul, speaking to Israel, those that have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge an are going about trying to establish their own righteousness, much like some on this forum. The book of Ephesians is loaded with Jesus's doctrine. We preach the whole truth of the doctrine of Jesus. All scriptures must harmonize [ ALL SCRIPTURE]. Sense you know us so well, you should know that the book of Romans is heavy loaded with the doctrinal truths of Jesus. We do not avoid any of the scriptures and I have never heard of the terminology of "Means preachers". That must be some outside language and I do not reference other men's writings. Rom 1:8-10 - There are untold numbers of different doctrines in the world today, but only one of those doctrines is the doctrine of Jesus. One thing for sure, if it is up to man having a helping hand in his eternal deliverance, it is not eternal deliverance by God's grace. As long as man is relying upon himself to get eternal salvation, God will not allow the Holy Ghost to reveal the doctrine of Jesus to him until he denies himself.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

This forum is scriptural exercise to me. We do not convert people to the church. God adds to the church daily such as should be delivered (saved=delivered) timely, of course. Acts 20:28 (preacher4truth) is the instruction as to what the duties of a preacher is; To feed the church (regenerated children of God). It is not a preachers duty to go outside of the church and try to convert (eternally save) souls. God doesen't need any help in doing that, in fact, he took care of that task by his Son going to the cross. The bible is an instruction book telling his children how he prefers them to live their lives while here on earth. It also informs his children how that they were eternally delivered on the cross. 1 Cor 1:18 - Explains who we should be feeding, which are those that are saved because preaching to the natural man that has not been born of the Spirit would think Jesus's doctrine is foolish (1 Cor 2:14). We teach the flock the good news, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which gives them confidence of their eternal deliverance. Rom 1:16 - The gospel is the power of God unto deliverance from the lack of knowledge to every one that believeth. Romans 10 touches on the same topic when Paul, speaking to Israel, those that have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge an are going about trying to establish their own righteousness, much like some on this forum. The book of Ephesians is loaded with Jesus's doctrine. We preach the whole truth of the doctrine of Jesus. All scriptures must harmonize [ ALL SCRIPTURE]. Sense you know us so well, you should know that the book of Romans is heavy loaded with the doctrinal truths of Jesus. We do not avoid any of the scriptures and I have never heard of the terminology of "Means preachers". That must be some outside language and I do not reference other men's writings. Rom 1:8-10 - There are untold numbers of different doctrines in the world today, but only one of those doctrines is the doctrine of Jesus. One thing for sure, if it is up to man having a helping hand in his eternal deliverance, it is not eternal deliverance by God's grace. As long as man is relying upon himself to get eternal salvation, God will not allow the Holy Ghost to reveal the doctrine of Jesus to him until he denies himself.

People are saved by God, all believers agree with this my friend. However, God uses the gospel to save the lost. No gospel = no salvation. 1 Cor. 1:21, Romans 1:16, Romans 10:8ff, Eph. 1:13.

 

[preacher4truth]

This forum is scriptural exercise to me. We do not convert people to the church. God adds to the church daily such as should be delivered (saved=delivered) timely, of course. Acts 20:28 (preacher4truth) is the instruction as to what the duties of a preacher is; To feed the church (regenerated children of God). It is not a preachers duty to go outside of the church and try to convert (eternally save) souls. God doesen't need any help in doing that, in fact, he took care of that task by his Son going to the cross. The bible is an instruction book telling his children how he prefers them to live their lives while here on earth. It also informs his children how that they were eternally delivered on the cross. 1 Cor 1:18 - Explains who we should be feeding, which are those that are saved because preaching to the natural man that has not been born of the Spirit would think Jesus's doctrine is foolish (1 Cor 2:14). We teach the flock the good news, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which gives them confidence of their eternal deliverance. Rom 1:16 - The gospel is the power of God unto deliverance from the lack of knowledge to every one that believeth. Romans 10 touches on the same topic when Paul, speaking to Israel, those that have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge an are going about trying to establish their own righteousness, much like some on this forum. The book of Ephesians is loaded with Jesus's doctrine. We preach the whole truth of the doctrine of Jesus. All scriptures must harmonize [ ALL SCRIPTURE]. Sense you know us so well, you should know that the book of Romans is heavy loaded with the doctrinal truths of Jesus. We do not avoid any of the scriptures and I have never heard of the terminology of "Means preachers". That must be some outside language and I do not reference other men's writings. Rom 1:8-10 - There are untold numbers of different doctrines in the world today, but only one of those doctrines is the doctrine of Jesus. One thing for sure, if it is up to man having a helping hand in his eternal deliverance, it is not eternal deliverance by God's grace. As long as man is relying upon himself to get eternal salvation, God will not allow the Holy Ghost to reveal the doctrine of Jesus to him until he denies himself.

My point proven: The above is hyper-calvinism and another gospel.

Note how they've changed its meaning in the above bold piece? The gospel to them is what they've made it, not what Scripture states it to be. Nothing in Scripture backs up FGC's claim.

All missionaries, according to them? Wasting their time. Wow.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

This forum is scriptural exercise to me. We do not convert people to the church. God adds to the church daily such as should be delivered (saved=delivered) timely, of course. Acts 20:28 (preacher4truth) is the instruction as to what the duties of a preacher is; To feed the church (regenerated children of God). It is not a preachers duty to go outside of the church and try to convert (eternally save) souls. God doesen't need any help in doing that, in fact, he took care of that task by his Son going to the cross. The bible is an instruction book telling his children how he prefers them to live their lives while here on earth. It also informs his children how that they were eternally delivered on the cross. 1 Cor 1:18 - Explains who we should be feeding, which are those that are saved because preaching to the natural man that has not been born of the Spirit would think Jesus's doctrine is foolish (1 Cor 2:14). We teach the flock the good news, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which gives them confidence of their eternal deliverance. Rom 1:16 - The gospel is the power of God unto deliverance from the lack of knowledge to every one that believeth. Romans 10 touches on the same topic when Paul, speaking to Israel, those that have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge an are going about trying to establish their own righteousness, much like some on this forum. The book of Ephesians is loaded with Jesus's doctrine. We preach the whole truth of the doctrine of Jesus. All scriptures must harmonize [ ALL SCRIPTURE]. Sense you know us so well, you should know that the book of Romans is heavy loaded with the doctrinal truths of Jesus. We do not avoid any of the scriptures and I have never heard of the terminology of "Means preachers". That must be some outside language and I do not reference other men's writings. Rom 1:8-10 - There are untold numbers of different doctrines in the world today, but only one of those doctrines is the doctrine of Jesus. One thing for sure, if it is up to man having a helping hand in his eternal deliverance, it is not eternal deliverance by God's grace. As long as man is relying upon himself to get eternal salvation, God will not allow the Holy Ghost to reveal the doctrine of Jesus to him until he denies himself.

18-21 The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It’s written,

I’ll turn conventional wisdom on its head,
I’ll expose so-called experts as crackpots.

So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn’t God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb—preaching, of all things!—to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation.(1 Corinthians 1)

16-17 It’s news I’m most proud to proclaim, this extraordinary Message of God’s powerful plan to rescue everyone who trusts him, starting with Jews and then right on to everyone else! God’s way of putting people right shows up in the acts of faith, confirming what Scripture has said all along: “The person in right standing before God by trusting him really lives.”(Romans 1)

13-14 It’s in Christ that you, once you heard the truth and believed it (this Message of your salvation), found yourselves home free—signed, sealed, and delivered by the Holy Spirit. This signet from God is the first installment on what’s coming, a reminder that we’ll get everything God has planned for us, a praising and glorious life.(Ephesians 1)


14-17 But how can people call for help if they don’t know who to trust? And how can they know who to trust if they haven’t heard of the One who can be trusted? And how can they hear if nobody tells them? And how is anyone going to tell them, unless someone is sent to do it? That’s why Scripture exclaims,

A sight to take your breath away!
Grand processions of people
telling all the good things of God!

But not everybody is ready for this, ready to see and hear and act. Isaiah asked what we all ask at one time or another: “Does anyone care, God? Is anyone listening and believing a word of it?” The point is: Before you trust, you have to listen. But unless Christ’s Word is preached, there’s nothing to listen to.(Romans 10)

Everyone saved has to hear the word.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

This forum is scriptural exercise to me. We do not convert people to the church. God adds to the church daily such as should be delivered (saved=delivered) timely, of course. Acts 20:28 (preacher4truth) is the instruction as to what the duties of a preacher is; To feed the church (regenerated children of God). It is not a preachers duty to go outside of the church and try to convert (eternally save) souls. God doesen't need any help in doing that, in fact, he took care of that task by his Son going to the cross. The bible is an instruction book telling his children how he prefers them to live their lives while here on earth. It also informs his children how that they were eternally delivered on the cross. 1 Cor 1:18 - Explains who we should be feeding, which are those that are saved because preaching to the natural man that has not been born of the Spirit would think Jesus's doctrine is foolish (1 Cor 2:14). We teach the flock the good news, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which gives them confidence of their eternal deliverance. Rom 1:16 - The gospel is the power of God unto deliverance from the lack of knowledge to every one that believeth. Romans 10 touches on the same topic when Paul, speaking to Israel, those that have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge an are going about trying to establish their own righteousness, much like some on this forum. The book of Ephesians is loaded with Jesus's doctrine. We preach the whole truth of the doctrine of Jesus. All scriptures must harmonize [ ALL SCRIPTURE]. Sense you know us so well, you should know that the book of Romans is heavy loaded with the doctrinal truths of Jesus. We do not avoid any of the scriptures and I have never heard of the terminology of "Means preachers". That must be some outside language and I do not reference other men's writings. Rom 1:8-10 - There are untold numbers of different doctrines in the world today, but only one of those doctrines is the doctrine of Jesus. One thing for sure, if it is up to man having a helping hand in his eternal deliverance, it is not eternal deliverance by God's grace. As long as man is relying upon himself to get eternal salvation, God will not allow the Holy Ghost to reveal the doctrine of Jesus to him until he denies himself.

My friend, what is your interpretation of ‘sozo’?

 

[Hevosmies]

My point proven: The above is hyper-calvinism and another gospel.

Note how they've changed its meaning in the above bold piece? The gospel to them is what they've made it, not what Scripture states it to be. Nothing in Scripture backs up FGC's claim.

All missionaries, according to them? Wasting their time. Wow.

The irony here is that: without missionaries they wouldnt have a bible in their hands to twist lol.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That's LOT'S of questions bro! LOL!!!!!!!!! Good ones.

Did you read the articles?

Time salvation denies the fact that our salvation is eternal, and will culminate in glorification as its end result. They speak of only a deliverance here on earth, denying the context of Scripture. It would be against the reality of Philippians 1:6 for all the saved.

They are against evangelising, so they must twist those passages to fir their theology. God saves people mystically, without man doing a thing. For instance I know of one who talks about Ghandi, and says even though he doesn't know it, he's born again and will be "in heaven" because he can tell he's saved. So, they look at a person who does good deeds and deem them regenerate. Things along those lines.

Your quote; "they speak of only a deliverance here on earth". If you have read our articles of faith, you know that statement is not true. We preach a deliverance into heaven. I have posted many post explaining the difference in the deliverance here on earth and the deliverance into heaven. Anytime that a child of God sins and repents of that sin, and God forgives him, he has been delivered (saved) here on earth. Salvation according to the Greek means "a deliverance". If you are going to rebuke Jesus's doctrine, at least be honest about it.