“About The Great Tribulation”

[iamsoandso]

Indeed there is only one day each year with 77 minutes in each hour and only one with 42 minutes in an hour in the night. But hey everyone knows cellphones are not real because there not in the bible if so we could just look at it and tell time like the Hebrews.

 

[Dino246]

Perhaps you can make your point clear.

Here is my point, stated clearly (as it was in my first post):

If you are writing a study on "the great tribulation" and don't address the events in Jerusalem of AD 66 to 70, your study is incomplete.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If you are writing a study on "the great tribulation" and don't address the events in Jerusalem of AD 66 to 70, your study is incomplete.

What happened in the first century has no bearing on the Great Tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Matthew 24:21.

• A Period of Great Persecution of the Saints: “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues and nations”—Revelation 13:7 (see also Daniel 8:24).
  
  Another prominent feature of the great tribulation is an unusual persecution of the Church. Yes, the church and saints of God of all ages have been persecuted and even martyred in large scale. But the persecution of the saints at the great tribulation will be far greater.

Good day emekrus,

I was in agreement with you up until the last section above. First of all, it is important to understand that there is difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would experience for His name sake and the word of God vs. God's coming, unprecedented wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

To make a correction, Daniel identifies that time of tribulation as being seven years in duration, which begins when the antichrist makes his seven year covenant. That seven year period is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven (see Dan.9:27). That said, in Matt.24:15 Jesus identifies the great tribulation as beginning from the setting up of the abomination and lasting throughout that last 3 1/2 years. The setting up of the abomination is when the beast/antichrist stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God - (see 2 Thess.2:4). It is the setting up of the abomination which also causes the woman/Israel to flee from Jerusalem and Judea, which is the desolation (See Matt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6, 14).

In further support that the church cannot be here during the time of God's tribulation, scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and the Lord also promised that those who keep His command to endure patiently He will keep them out of that hour of trial - (see Rom.5:9, I Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10).

Aside from the scriptures, the underlying principle of this is that, Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely and therefore His wrath no longer rests on the believer. The wrath of God which is coming will be poured out upon a Christ rejecting world and the church (who have already received Christ) will not be exposed to that coming wrath. Furthermore, when one believes in Christ, they ae credited with righteousness and reconciled to God and have been seated in heavenly places with Christ. And you think that God is going to send them through His wrath?

In chapters 1 thru 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "hagios" translated as "saints." Likewise, after chapter 4 onward you will not see the word ekklesia/church, but only the word hagios/saints. Because of the separation of these two words, a distinction is being made here. Rev.4:1-2 is what I call a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up in relation to the chronological order of Revelation, which is why the word "church" no longer appears within the narrative of God's wrath which follows. That "voice that sounds like a trumpet" in Rev.4:1 is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" mentioned in I Thes.4:16 where the church is caught up.

So, who are the hagios/saints mentioned beginning in Rev.5:8? They are the great tribulation saints who are from every nation, tribe, people and language, introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches, then in the elder asks John, "these in white robes who are they and where did they come from?" The very fact that the elder is asking John who they are demonstrates that they are not the church, which John just wrote to. John then responds with "Sir, you are the one who knows," meaning that John didn't know who they were. The elder then says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb." Therefore, everywhere that you see the word "saints" after chapter 4, is referring to the great tribulation saints. These are those who will come to believe in Christ after the church has been removed and during that seven years, the time of God's wrath.

A Period of God’s Wrath: The final stage of the great tribulation is a period of unusual disaster from God (Revelation 16:1-14). And this last phase of the great tribulation will happen after the rapture of the Church at the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The bible says the true believers will not partake of God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So amidst the great tribulation, Christ will come and rapture his church and after that, the remaining inhabitants of the earth will face the wrath of God as it was in the days of Noah.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is what God is going to use to carry out His wrath. The bowl judgments found in Rev.16 are said to be "last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." Since the bowl judgments are "last" then other wrath would have to come before them. If I am last in line to buy tickets for concert, then it means that there were other people buying tickets in front of me. It is the same here: since the bowls are said to be last and complete God's wrath, then other wrath would have to come before them, namely the seals and trumpets. It is shortly after the pouring out of the 7th bowl that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Furthermore, when Christ returns to end the age the church, those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up prior to the first seal being opened, will be following Christ out of heaven.

Revelation 19:6-8 reveals the bride/church being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean and this during the time of God's wrath upon the earth. Then in verse 14 the armies of heaven follow the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that will have previously been given to the bride/church. In further support of the church returning to the earth with the Lord, we also have Rev.17:14:

"They (the beast and ten kings) will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful followers.”

To better understand this fact, the words of our Lord Jesus give us an eye-opener. Here are his exact words: “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered the ark; and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”—Matthew 24:37-39.

As I have made known so many times, those who are of the "one taken" group is not representing those being caught up in the rapture. But those of the "one taken" group are being compared to those being taken away in the flood. Therefore, the comparison is wicked to wicked. In support of this, in the parable of the weeds and wheat, the harvesters/angels will be sent out to "first gather the weeds." It is the weeds/wicked who are of the "one taken" group. Matt.37-36-41 has nothing to do with the gathering of the church. In addition and as I have already mentioned, by putting the church as being gathered when the Lord returns to end the age, it would put the church through the entire wrath of God, which again we are not appointed to suffer.

With the above three features of the great tribulation, it is very clear that the saints or believers will partake of the great tribulation. Especially the periods of great deception and persecution. But the believers will not partake of the last phase of the great tribulation which is the wrath of God or the judgement of God.

Only the great tribulation saints and the rest of the inhabitants of the earth will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues from the two witnesses. The church will have been removed prior to the opening of the 1st seal, which is why the church is not mentioned beyond chapter 4.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The old protestants run rings around the understanding of the dispen-sensationalists.

The old Protestants tried to allegorize and spiritualize everything since they accepted the Catholic notion that the prophecies of Revelation were already fulfilled. Adam Clarke is as unreliable as the Pope in this matter.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I agree with Nehemiah6's "What happened in the first century has no bearing on the Great Tribulation."

I believe the word "therefore [G3767 - oun]" in Matthew 24:15 is very important:

[quoting, from Bible Hub]

"3767 oún (a conjunction) – therefore, now then, accordingly so. 3767 (oún) occurs 526 times in the NT and is typically translated "therefore" which means, "By extension, here's how the dots connect." "

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]


This has everything to do with the CHRONOLOGY issues I spelled out in a different post (and perhaps a different thread altogether).

Matthew 24:4-8 / Mark 13:5-8 / AND Luke 21:8-11 ALL tell of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (and parallel the SEALS of Rev6).

But Luke 21:12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" [i.e. BEFORE all these beginning of birth pangs... then proceeds to say the 70ad events must come to pass BEFORE those (vv.12-24a with 24b following on from there)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ … and Matthew 22:7-8 provides the SAME SEQUENCE, with v.7 referring to the 70ad events ('when the king heard thereof, he was wroth [see Lk21:23 "wrath upon this people" in the 70ad section]: and he sent forth his armies [see Lk21:20], and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city"), and then verse 8 goes on to say, "THEN SAITH HE to His servants" (He did this in the 95ad writings of "The Revelation," where v.1 states, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [4:1, the FUTURE things (of this Book)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (NOT things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 yrs).

 

[Ahwatukee]

Here is my point, stated clearly (as it was in my first post):

If you are writing a study on "the great tribulation" and don't address the events in Jerusalem of AD 66 to 70, your study is incomplete.

Hello Dino,

As Nehemiah pointed out, "the great tribulation" has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

In Matt.24:15, Jesus quotes from Daniel 9:27 saying "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel." He then inserts (let the reader understand), which is pointing to the fact that according to Dan.9:27, the abomination is set up in the middle of the seven years. At the end of that seven years is when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. Therefore, the time of God's wrath spans that last seven years with the setting up of the abomination and that last 3 1/2 years representing the great tribulation period.

By Jesus saying "when you see standing in the holy place" it would infer that He was speaking in the future tense, i.e. the setting up of the abomination was still future from the time He quoted it. Consequently, from the time Jesus said this until the time that the temple was destroyed, Daniel 9:27 was not fulfilled and is therefore still future. The great tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, is directly linked to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Therefore, it would have nothing to do with AD 70.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The generation that shall not pass away before the end comes, are they who live through and witness all the events described in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Hello Luigi,

I totally agree with what you say above. Many, specifically preterists, love to use "this generation" to mean the generation that Jesus was living in. The generation that would not pass away would have to be the one that is existing when all of those signs take place. The comparison is as follows:

When you see the trees blossoming = Summer is near

When you see all of these things taking place = The end of the age is near, right at the door

Therefore, it is the generation that witnesses all of those events that is in view and not Jesus' generation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1) Most of the Wailing Wall was built after the Temple was destroyed. Regardless of when it was built, THE WAILING WALL WAS NEVER A WALL OF THE TEMPLE.

2) Your claim makes Jesus a liar. Jesus said there will not be one stone left onto of another of "these buildings". Where are those buildings now? They were torn down, but some stones still remain on another.

3) Your eschatology is a hopeless mess of nonsense and blasphemy. People who claim Jesus' prophesy is still the future often argue "this generation" is one future generation in which everything Jesus said will come to pass. If part of the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and the rest 2000 years later, that's a longer span than one generation.

You got owned, dude. But, it won't phase you.

Jesus was not including the destruction of the temple as being apart of the signs leading up to the Lord's return to end the age. The focus was on the last part of the what the disciples had asked i.e. "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"

Since the Lord quoted Dan.9:27 and none of those events have taken place, then they must yet be fulfilled in the future. The signs that the Lord mentioned such as nation rising against nation (red horse), famines and earthquakes (black horse) and the setting up of the abomination, which takes place in the middle of the seven years, will be those signs that take place directly leading up to the Lord's return to end the age.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe "stars shall fall from heaven" to have a figurative, spiritual meaning. You think that makes me guilty of believing "ABSOLUTE NONSENSE AND TOTAL FANTASY. " If I want to avoid nonsense, I'd have to believe that the stars, all suns, of the sky will literally fall from the sky, and that some or all people won't even be killed by that? Excuse me while a barf and laugh at the same time.

The stars falling from heaven, which are events that Revelation mentions will take place a couple of different time, will take place literally and has no spiritual connotation. Since the sun and moon are both mentioned, if the stars falling to the earth was spiritual, then the sun and moon would have to also have spiritual meanings. However, the fact that both the sun and moon are mentioned would infer that literal stars are in view, which are most likely referring to meteorites or asteroids.

Revelation 1:16 that stars refer to angels “The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches...

Revelation 12:4, the stars refer to the evil angels

Genesis 37:9, the stars are Joseph's parents and brothers.

But, those verses must be absolute nonsense and total fantasy, to you. Excuse me while a barf and laugh at the same time, again.

You are correct in your interpretation of the use of word "stars" above. The interpretation of the word "stars" would be dependent upon its context.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What is that supposed to mean? It looks like a misquotation of 2 Peter 1:20.



Here are two more:

Mark 13:30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Luke 21:32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

This generation = the one where those signs begin to take place, which hasn't happened yet.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But, those verses must be absolute nonsense and total fantasy, to you. Excuse me while a barf and laugh at the same time, again.

So you have joined the scoffers who will come in the last days. Good for you. Keep barfing and laughing and YOU WILL LEARN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Keep believing nonsense and fantasy and you will never understand the Bible.

 

[Hevosmies]

If the stars falling are spiritual. WHAT are the symbolic OF?

This is my biggest pet-peeve with the allegorical view often times its said to be spiritual, but then its not explained what it actually is. The situation becomes even more awkward when different expositors of the Bible offer DIFFERENT symbolic meanings.

Alternatively with preterism its always 70AD.

"Greater tribulation than has EVER faced the earth. Well what about WWII? (lost family in the camps btw)?" -"well yeah 70AD"
"Sun and moon going dark, stars falling, third of ships sinking, fish dying, water turning to blood, I dont remember this happening in history?" -"well 70AD, spiritually fulfilled"
"Nation shall rise against nation, yet during 70AD the area of Judea was under roman control, and since then we've had world wars much worse..." -"nope, 70AD"
"The mount of olives will be split, that clearly hasnt happened yet." -"Sure it has. in 70AD spiritually"
"It says here Jesus will come in the clouds and gather His elect from the four winds of heaven, all eyes shall see him all tribes of the earth shall mourn. When did this happen?" -"70AD spiritually fulfilled."

SERIOUSLY? You expect me to believe that? Was Jesus the roman armies? Absurd.

 

[Locutus]

Adam Clarke's commentary:

Nation shall rise against nation - This portended the dissensions, insurrections and mutual slaughter of the Jews, and those of other nations, who dwelt in the same cities together; as particularly at Caesarea, where the Jews and Syrians contended about the right of the city, which ended there in the total expulsion of the Jews, above 20,000 of whom were slain. The whole Jewish nation being exasperated at this, flew to arms, and burnt and plundered the neighboring cities and villages of the Syrians, making an immense slaughter of the people. The Syrians, in return, destroyed not a less number of the Jews. At Scythopolis they murdered upwards of 13,000. At Ascalon they killed 2,500. At Ptolemais they slew 2000, and made many prisoners. The Tyrians also put many Jews to death, and imprisoned more: the people of Gadara did likewise; and all the other cities of Syria in proportion, as they hated or feared the Jews. As Alexandria the Jews and heathens fought, and 50,000 of the former were slain. The people of Damascus conspired against the Jews of that city, and, assaulting them unarmed, killed 10,000 of them. See Bishop Newton, and Dr. Lardner.


Kingdom against kingdom - This portended the open wars of different tetrarchies and provinces against each other.

1. 1st. That of the Jews and Galileans against the Samaritans, for the murder of some Galileans going up to the feast of Jerusalem, while Cumanus was procurator.
   
   

2ndly. That of the whole nation of the Jews against the Romans and Agrippa, and other allies of the Roman empire; which began when Gessius Florus was procurator.

1. 3dly. That of the civil war in Italy, while Otho and Vitellius were contending for the empire.
   
   It is worthy of remark, that the Jews themselves say, "In the time of the Messiah, wars shall be stirred up in the world; nation shall rise against nation, and city against city." Sohar Kadash. "Again, Rab. Eleasar, the son of Abina, said, When ye see kingdom rising against kingdom, then expect the immediate appearance of the Messiah." Bereshith Rabba, sect. 42.
2. The Third sign, pestilence and famine.
   
   It is farther added, that There shall be famines, and pestilences - There was a famine foretold by Agabus, ( Acts 11:28, which is mentioned by Suetonius, Tacitus, and Eusebius; which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar, and was so severe at Jerusalem that Josephus says (Ant. b. xx. c. 2). many died for lack of food. Pestilences are the usual attendants of famines: as the scarcity and badness of provisions generally produce epidemic disorders.
3. The Fourth sign, earthquakes or popular commotions.
   
   Earthquakes, in divers places - If we take the word σεισμοι from σειω to shake, in the first sense, then it means particularly those popular commotions and insurrections which have already been noted; and this I think to be the true meaning of the word: but if we confine it to earthquakes, there were several in those times to which our Lord refers; particularly one at Crete in the reign of Claudius, one at Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos. See Grotius. One at Rome, mentioned by Tacitus; and one at Laodicea in the reign of Nero, in which the city was overthrown, as were likewise Hierapolis and Colosse. See Tacit. Annal. lib. xii. and lib. xiv. One at Campania, mentioned by Seneca; and one at Rome, in the reign of Galba, mentioned by Suetonius in the life of that emperor. Add to all these, a dreadful one in Judea, mentioned by Josephus (War, b. iv. c. 4). accompanied by a dreadful tempest, violent winds, vehement showers, and continual lightnings and thunders; which led many to believe that these things portended some uncommon calamity.

 

[Dino246]

What happened in the first century has no bearing on the Great Tribulation.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Thanks for your opinion.

You are more than welcome.

What every Christian should understand is that when it comes to Bible prophecies, far too many theologians and scholars have been MISLEADING Christians for centuries, if not for millennia. There are a vast number of prophecies to be fulfilled in the future, and we have been told that they have already been fulfilled. That is a great disservice to those who seek to know Bible truth.

 

[luigi]

If the stars falling are spiritual. WHAT are the symbolic OF?

In Daniel 8:10, the little horn that emerges from one of four seceded horns of the he-goat casts some of heavens stars to the ground.
The stars that are cast to the ground are then explained in Daniel 8:12 with it casting truth to the ground.
As such I then recognize the Lords angels who illumine us with truth, as the stars that the little horn, aka the Antichrist will cast to the ground.

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 

[Dino246]

You are more than welcome.

What every Christian should understand is that when it comes to Bible prophecies, far too many theologians and scholars have been MISLEADING Christians for centuries, if not for millennia. There are a vast number of prophecies to be fulfilled in the future, and we have been told that they have already been fulfilled. That is a great disservice to those who seek to know Bible truth.

Far less so than the attempt to discourage inquiry, investigation, and examination of relevant information. The truth has nothing to fear from study.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The word "stars" in Revelation are used in the following manner:

* The stars in the Lord's right hand represent the seven angels (pastors/overseers) of the seven churches - Rev.1:20

* Jesus as the Morning Star - Rev.2:26

* Meteorites/asteroids referred to as stars - Rev.6:12-13

* A Star representing an unknown object which contaminates the waters at the 3rd trumpet - Rev.8:10-11

* Stars representing literal stars because the sun and the moon are also in the context- Rev.8:12

* A star representing an angel who opens the Abyss at the 5th trumpet - Rev.9:1-2

* Stars representing the twelve tribes of Israel - Rev.12:1/Gen.37:9-10

* Stars representing Satan's angels - Rev.12:3-4, 7-9

It is the context that will reveal however the star or any word is being used symbolically. Therefore, we cannot apply the same meaning every time we see the word star. In other words, just because scripture states that the "stars fell to the earth" does not mean that they are fallen angels.