Master Keys to Holiness

[emekrus]

Do you believe that "fail of the grace of God" (KJV) means fail to "maintain it" or fail to "obtain it?" -- "comes short/falls short/fails to obtain" (NASB; NIV; ESV) the grace of God.



What exactly would you like to discuss about the book of James?

I mean the contextual meaning of justified as used in the book of James under discuss. Point your hermeneutics there.

 

[emekrus]

I think you meant to say, that we are to become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.


For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21


The principle of righteousness is thus:


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7



The righteousness of faith is predicated upon obedience.




JLB

Dear,

The scripture teaches that righteousness is a gift. The 'might' in the scripture you quoted talks about choice.

We get righteous by faith in Christ Jesus. Only that we need to live it out in our daily lives else we could loose it.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Dear,

The scripture teaches that righteousness is a gift. The 'might' in the scripture you quoted talks about choice.

We get righteous by faith in Christ Jesus. Only that we need to live it out in our daily lives else we could loose it.

Yes it’s a choice to practice righteousness, rather than practicing the works of the flesh.


Again, the principle of righteousness is those who practice righteousness are righteous.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7



JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Yes it’s a choice to practice righteousness, rather than practicing the works of the flesh.

Again, the principle of righteousness is those who practice righteousness are righteous.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

JPT

Which is descriptive of children of God and not children of the devil (1 John 3:7-10).

 

[mailmandan]

I mean the contextual meaning of justified as used in the book of James under discuss. Point your hermeneutics there.

I thought that I already did.

 

[emekrus]

Yes it’s a choice to practice righteousness, rather than practicing the works of the flesh.


Again, the principle of righteousness is those who practice righteousness are righteous.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7



JPT

Yes in the sense of the above scripture, the practice of righteousness is an evidence of righteousness.

And if this evidence is lacking, it quickly shows there is something wrong somewhere with the believer. It doesn't add up anymore.

 

[emekrus]

I thought that I already did.

The context doesn't say what you explained earlier. You said James meant 'accounted to be righteous' with the word 'justified'. Yet I can't see anything that suggests that in the context. So I want you to lay the scripture on the table and show your hermeneutics and how you came to your conclusion.

 

[justpassinthrough]

The context doesn't say what you explained earlier. You said James meant 'accounted to be righteous' with the word 'justified'. Yet I can't see anything that suggests that in the context. So I want you to lay the scripture on the table and show your hermeneutics and how you came to your conclusion.

Who are you referring to?


I will be glad to show what James teaches concerning faith;
The justification according to faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:21-26


Key Verse:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?


The “work” James is Referring to is the action of obedience.


It’s called the obedience of faith.


Without this corresponding act of obedience, faith remains dormant, inactive, and dead.


Just as a body without a spirit is dead, so faith without obedience is dead.



JPT

 

[mailmandan]

The context doesn't say what you explained earlier. You said James meant 'accounted to be righteous' with the word 'justified'. Yet I can't see anything that suggests that in the context. So I want you to lay the scripture on the table and show your hermeneutics and how you came to your conclusion.

I said Paul uses the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:2-3; 5:1) and James uses the term "justified” to mean “shown to be righteous” (James 2:24) and I showed my hermeneutics in post #34.

*Compare Romans 4:2-3 with James 2:24 and you will see the difference.

 

[emekrus]

Who are you referring to?


I will be glad to show what James teaches concerning faith;
The justification according to faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:21-26


Key Verse:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?


The “work” James is Referring to is the action of obedience.


It’s called the obedience of faith.


Without this corresponding act of obedience, faith remains dormant, inactive, and dead.


Just as a body without a spirit is dead, so faith without obedience is dead.



JPT

I was actually referring to Mailmandan. I totally agree with your down to earth interpretation. Because that's exactly what the scripture says.

 

[emekrus]

I said Paul uses the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:2-3; 5:1) and James uses the term "justified” to mean “shown to be righteous” (James 2:24) and I showed my hermeneutics in post #34.

*Compare Romans 4:2-3 with James 2:24 and you will see the difference.

Your post #34 doesn't quote the exact scripture in James it talks about the meaning of 'justified' in many context. Now let me help out with the scripture let's discuss:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

How did you come about the fact that in the context of the above verse, justified means 'shown to be righteous'?

 

[mailmandan]

Your post #34 doesn't quote the exact scripture in James it talks about the meaning of 'justified' in many context. Now let me help out with the scripture let's discuss:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

How did you come about the fact that in the context of the above verse, justified means 'shown to be righteous'?

See post #4 from the link below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/faith-and-deeds.166701/

 

[emekrus]

See post #4 from the link below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/faith-and-deeds.166701/

I just read the post you directed me to and you are repeating the same idea.

You differentiate between genuine faith and empty/ dead faith.

But like I said before, the people who believe like you do, won't take it from anyone if they are told they have dead faith because of lack of works.

What would be their reason?

'our works doesn't matter'. Which is exactly what you are preaching.

 

[Dino246]

Brother Dino and Mailmandan,

Putting aside every other references. Let's make a simple analogy here.

Going back to the dog and goat issue...

If I say...
follow dog, and goat else (without which) none of you shall see me

I believe if I issued such a command even to 'total donkeys' they should understand clearly that if they don't follow dog and goat, they won't be able to see me. Or don't you agree?

Then Mr. Mailmandan. The instruction of the scripture doesn't say sinless perfection but rather, follow after. All that is requires is to pursue it as a lifestyle.

No translator with a sound understanding of English would render such a sentence. However, as you have written it, even the total donkeys would be confused, because the comma is in the wrong place, implying that "goat" is a verb.

Further, replacing "without which" with "else" changes the structure sufficiently to change the whole conversation. I'm not going there.

I do find it somewhat amusing that you asked me for references, and in your first response after I provide them, you brush them aside.

And Brother Dino,

I forgot to ask. If you agree that 'follow' applies to both peace and holiness...
Whatever detached the 'follow' from the 'holiness', when it got to the point of 'without which no man shall see the Lord'?

I don't agree that "follow" applies to both peace and holiness. I think I've made that adequately clear.

The rules of English grammar make the meaning clear. Only those who don't understand them or refuse to accept them will misinterpret the sentence to mean that either "follow" or "peace with all men" are included in "which".

"Which" refers to a noun. It really is that simple. In the case of an idea, the idea as a whole is the noun. The sentence structure in the KJV does not allow that interpretation of the verse in question.

 

[mailmandan]

I just read the post you directed me to and you are repeating the same idea.

You differentiate between genuine faith and empty/ dead faith.

But like I said before, the people who believe like you do, won't take it from anyone if they are told they have dead faith because of lack of works.

What would be their reason?

'our works doesn't matter'. Which is exactly what you are preaching.

I never said that works don’t matter. Just because we are saved through faith and not by works does not mean that works don’t matter at all. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No works at all demonstrates there is no root. So good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

 

[emekrus]

I don't agree that "follow" applies to both peace and holiness. I think I've made that adequately clear.
.

Brother Dino,

Sequel to your quote above...

I don't understand... Because you actually wrote this...

"The "follow" part (pursue, in the NIV), applies to both peace and holiness ("dog" and "goat"). I have made no issue with this".

I actually find the reconciliation of the two statements ambiguous...

Perhaps you could help out.

 

[emekrus]

I never said that works don’t matter. Just because we are saved through faith and not by works does not mean that works don’t matter at all. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No works at all demonstrates there is no root. So good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

Then the implication of your exegesis is that works is actually good for nothing to the person who is only interested in salvation and nothing else.

 

[mailmandan]

Then the implication of your exegesis is that works is actually good for nothing to the person who is only interested in salvation and nothing else.

That is a straw man argument. Just because works are not the means of our salvation does not mean that works are good for nothing to the believer. We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10) and good works are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) and good works glorify our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16). That does not sound like good for nothing to me.

 

[emekrus]

That is a straw man argument. Just because works are not the means of our salvation does not mean that works are good for nothing to the believer. We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10) and good works are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8) and good works glorify our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16). That does not sound like good for nothing to me.

And you would agree with me, there are gazillion of straw men in Christendom. And I tell you, with your position about works. Good works definitely sounds very loud to them as good for nothing.

 

[preacher4truth]

So which is it: "without holiness, no man shall see the Lord", or, "without the pursuit of holiness, no man shall see the Lord"?

They definitely aren't the same thing.

It's both.