Master Keys to Holiness

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

Brother Dino and Mailmandan,

Putting aside every other references. Let's make a simple analogy here.

Going back to the dog and goat issue...

If I say...
follow dog, and goat else (without which) none of you shall see me

I believe if I issued such a command even to 'total donkeys' they should understand clearly that if they don't follow dog and goat, they won't be able to see me. Or don't you agree?

Then Mr. Mailmandan. The instruction of the scripture doesn't say sinless perfection but rather, follow after. All that is requires is to pursue it as a lifestyle.

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

Dino246 said:

With regard to English grammar, I was not able to locate a good online reference, but I did find this:

As a pronoun to refer back to one single noun or to a whole idea:
a. Referring to one single word:
A week ago I bought a cashmere sweater which cost $150. (The word which is “re-naming” the sweater.)

b. Referring to a whole idea or phrase:
In 2005, we took a vacation to Walt Disney World, which helped to bond our family members together. (The word which is referring to the taking of the family vacation.)
(source: https://www.jalc.edu/files/uploads/...nter_tutorials/48_the_proper_use_of_which.pdf)

"Without which" is a prepositional phrase, so we also must consider the proper use in this context. The same source has several examples. In every case the "which" refers to a single noun, not the whole idea.

In the case of your key verse, the "which" cannot refer to the whole idea. The reason for this is that the "follow" in the KJV precedes "peace with all men". Our "seeing the Lord" would then depend on us striving to be at peace with all men as well as pursuing holiness. "Which" must therefore refer only to the single noun that precedes it: holiness.

With regard to the Scripture itself, BibleGateway lists 59 translations in English; of these, 39 clarify that "without which no-one will see the Lord" refers specifically to "holiness", not to the pursuit of it.
(source: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 12:14).

And Brother Dino,

I forgot to ask. If you agree that 'follow' applies to both peace and holiness...
Whatever detached the 'follow' from the 'holiness', when it got to the point of 'without which no man shall see the Lord'?

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

theanointedsinner said:

Sorry. But if you could give a little more detail in your question, and the backdrop, perhaps I could be able to explain.

theanointedsinner · Oct 17, 2018

emekrus said:

how to trust that God see us as children of God?

meditate on God's love,
and enjoy God's love?

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

theanointedsinner said:

Well,

The answer is Faith.
Our faith in God and his words enables us trust that God sees us as his children.

Then to be able to meditate on God's love and enjoy his love, faith is also required. Faith is required to activate God's love in our hearts.

And however, the love of God actually dawns in our spirit through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. The Love of God can be studied and talked about. But the experience of his love is actually a work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

mailmandan · Oct 17, 2018

emekrus said:

Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

Are you connecting Hebrews 12:14 with progressive or ongoing sanctification in regards to pursuing holiness as a lifestyle? Is your implication that some Christians will pursue it and see the Lord and some Christians will not pursue it and will not see the Lord? Do you believe that we are saved by grace through faith? Or faith plus our best efforts to pursue holiness as a lifestyle?

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

And of course, we've been through this before.

Yes Hebrews 12:14 as you can clearly see talks about the progressive or ongoing sanctification. It says without us following peace with all men and the sanctification(ongoing) no man shall see the Lord. Please note that this scripture was written to believers, already sanctified by faith. If it was needless, there shouldn't be any more need writing it to the already sanctified.

I didn't write it. The bible clearly say so.

And of course, James seconds that. James says we are not justified by faith only but also by works ( which will include the progressive sanctification).

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

Are you connecting Hebrews 12:14 with progressive or ongoing sanctification in regards to pursuing holiness as a lifestyle? Is your implication that some Christians will pursue it and see the Lord and some Christians will not pursue it and will not see the Lord? Do you believe that we are saved by grace through faith? Or faith plus our best efforts to pursue holiness as a lifestyle?

Sorry. I forgot to ask. With regard to the coloured part of your post. What do you think necessitates the remaining need for the practical, progressive holiness?

If after all, its of no consequence?

mailmandan · Oct 17, 2018

emekrus said:

Are you using Hebrews 12:14 as a warning passage to Christians that they had better pursue peace with all men and holiness or else they will not see the Lord? I've heard numerous people in the NOSAS camp quote that verse before with that implication and they also go on to quote verse 15 in the KJV, which says - Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God.. to imply that such a person failed and lost their salvation. Yet in the NASB, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. The NIV says - ..falls short of the grace of God and the ESV says - ..fails to obtain the grace of God..

Created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in (Ephesians 2:10) is part of our progressive sanctification.

Do you realize that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous?" James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

mailmandan · Oct 17, 2018

emekrus said:

The remaining need for practical, progressive holiness is for Christian growth and maturity in Christ. If we are truly born again then we will grow in the Lord (some faster than others) and we will produce fruit (some more than others). There are certain believers, as these mentioned in Corinth who were stagnant in their growth, yet Paul still refers to them as babes in Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:1 - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

It's not about must reach entire sanctification in this lifetime or else we won't be saved. That is not the consequence.

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

Firstly, I believe the first part of your question should be directed to the author of the book of Hebrews. We oft to accept what the word of God says to be on the safer side. And of course, you just quoted what it says exactly.

The verse says verbatim, without any opinion tainting :

Follow Peace with all men and Holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

It is undilutedly, as clear as whistle. No opinion there.

You say James meant "accounted as righteous" with the word 'justified'. And with such exegesis, one would ask: 'how did you arrive at that conclusion?'

How come in other places in the scripture where 'justified' was used, it didn't mean the same as you say is used by James here?

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

The remaining need for practical, progressive holiness is for Christian growth and maturity in Christ. If we are truly born again then we will grow in the Lord (some faster than others) and we will produce fruit (some more than others). There are certain believers, as these mentioned in Corinth who were stagnant in their growth, yet Paul still refers to them as babes in Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:1 - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

It's not about must reach entire sanctification in this lifetime or else we won't be saved. That is not the consequence.

Well,

With this your position. Suppose someone chooses not to pursue the progressive holiness, because he is not interested in that growth stuff. What now happens?

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

The major issue here is not must reach entire sanctification in this lifetime or else we won't be saved.

The position of the scripture is that, we must pursue sanctification in this lifetime or else we may loose our salvation.

They are two different things.

mailmandan · Oct 17, 2018

emekrus said:

The NASB (literal word for word translation) reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. So just how "sufficiently" must we pursue peace with all men and ongoing sanctification/practical progressive holiness "in addition to being justified and sanctified/set apart/made holy" (positionally in Christ) before we can confidently say we will see the Lord? Is that salvation through faith or salvation by works?

Paul uses the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:2-3; 5:1) and James uses the term "justified" to mean "shown to be righteous." (James 2:24) It's all about CONTEXT.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was "shown to be righteous". God does not need to be "accounted as righteous" because He already is righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

mailmandan · Oct 17, 2018

emekrus said:

Not interested in growth at all/does not pursue progressive holiness at all, demonstrates that someone is not born of God. In 1 John 3:7-10, we see a CONTRAST between children of God and children of the devil.

I just knew that's where you were headed with this. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have "sufficiently" pursued progressive sanctification and will not lose your salvation?

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

The NASB (literal word for word translation) reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. So just how "sufficiently" must we pursue peace with all men and ongoing sanctification/practical progressive holiness "in addition to being justified and sanctified/set apart/made holy" (positionally in Christ) before we can confidently say we will see the Lord? Is that salvation through faith or salvation by works?

Paul uses the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:2-3; 5:1) and James uses the term "justified" to mean "shown to be righteous." (James 2:24) It's all about CONTEXT.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was "shown to be righteous". God does not need to be "accounted as righteous" because He already is righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

And of course, I don't see any difference between KJV and NASB. They are saying exactly the same thing. But the question should be directed to the verse author not me.

Great hermeneutics of the word 'justified'.

Can you now point your hermeneutics to the book of James under discuss?

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

Great.
That's why we have the Holy Spirit, and regenerated hearts. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit.

If we are missing it, he convicts us. If we are right on track, our hearts will be pure without any guilt or condemnation.

Remember if we judge ourselves, God won't need to judge us.

mailmandan · Oct 17, 2018

emekrus said:

Do you believe that "fail of the grace of God" (KJV) means fail to "maintain it" or fail to "obtain it?" -- "comes short/falls short/fails to obtain" (NASB; NIV; ESV) the grace of God.

What exactly would you like to discuss about the book of James?

emekrus · Oct 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

Well,

There are many in this category. And you dare not tell them they are not born of God. Because according to them, they already have positional righteousness and holiness.

justpassinthrough · Oct 17, 2018

emekrus said:

I think you meant to say, that we are to become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

The principle of righteousness is thus:

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

The righteousness of faith is predicated upon obedience.

JLB

Master Keys to Holiness

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