Predestination or free wiil.
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You have stated that I have falsely accused you, then you turn around and falsely accuse me. I have never told you that God did not give man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, in fact, I have posted it on several of my posts. I could go back and pull up some of your posts that say slanderous things about me, but I wont.
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Any time that there is a requirement for man to do to have eternal life, then it is a work depending on man's action. Eph 2:5 says when the natural man is regenerated he is still spiritually dead in his sins and cannot respond, such as, accept, repent, confess, believe, these are all spiritually discerned responses. But you go ahead and slander me as you have been and I will not get mad and retaliate.
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This is the calvinist moving of goalposts I talked about earlier:
They claim misrepresentation and move the goalposts, case in point. Forestgreen said "I have never told you that God did not give man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth"
If forestgreen you are a calvinist you dont believe in free will. Some say they do, but dont, they claim man freely sins and he can only desire to sin because we are only free to choose according to our NATURE (sin nature in this case). So by saying this, now whatever eternally-grateful comes back with, you can reply :"Man can choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, and everyone just wants to live in sin because they are sinners unregenerate"
Am i right? Or are you not a calvinist at all. If thats the case i apologize already, if not, im stickin to my statement
They claim misrepresentation and move the goalposts, case in point. Forestgreen said "I have never told you that God did not give man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth"
If forestgreen you are a calvinist you dont believe in free will. Some say they do, but dont, they claim man freely sins and he can only desire to sin because we are only free to choose according to our NATURE (sin nature in this case). So by saying this, now whatever eternally-grateful comes back with, you can reply :"Man can choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, and everyone just wants to live in sin because they are sinners unregenerate"
Am i right? Or are you not a calvinist at all. If thats the case i apologize already, if not, im stickin to my statement
Hello RDK, 
I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:
Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.
So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."
Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.
I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.
On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.
So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.
I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:
Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.
So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."
Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.
I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.
On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.
So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.
We are told about predestination, but if we try to mold our thinking with that in mind we will mess up. Such things are for God to fully understand and share with us once we quit looking through glass darkly (1 Cor. 13:12).
I particularly liked your analogy of seeing predestination as an end of path factor. We need not worry because our lives have become Christ's work, not ours.
Heb. 12:2 "looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right of the throne of God."
With our path secure, let's get about making the right choices and quit worrying about how predestination fits into it. Like you said, God wants our love, not automatons.
E
Thats your problem. Faith is not a requirement IT IS A CONDITION.
A work is something you do to earn earn something. You can not earn something by simply trusting in someone else to do the work for you because you are unabel.
Jesus said faith is not our work but it is the work of God (it is the WORK OF GOD you BELIEVE IN THE ONE HE SENT (John 6)
Paul reminds us abraham wa funded on faith (he believed God) abd it was not of works lest abraham have the ability to boast of earning a wage. But not before God. What does it say? HE BELIEVED GOD and GOD credited to his acount RIGHTEOUSNESS (also known as Justification) Rom 4...
And I can name many other pasages I am sure.. which proves it is not a work to come to a point of faith in God. And it is our FAITH which causes our justification which in turn makes us alive in christ.
We are made alive because our sins are forgiven. Not because we someohow magically were regenerated by God because we are special people.
A work is something you do to earn earn something. You can not earn something by simply trusting in someone else to do the work for you because you are unabel.
Jesus said faith is not our work but it is the work of God (it is the WORK OF GOD you BELIEVE IN THE ONE HE SENT (John 6)
Paul reminds us abraham wa funded on faith (he believed God) abd it was not of works lest abraham have the ability to boast of earning a wage. But not before God. What does it say? HE BELIEVED GOD and GOD credited to his acount RIGHTEOUSNESS (also known as Justification) Rom 4...
And I can name many other pasages I am sure.. which proves it is not a work to come to a point of faith in God. And it is our FAITH which causes our justification which in turn makes us alive in christ.
We are made alive because our sins are forgiven. Not because we someohow magically were regenerated by God because we are special people.
E
Keep it up.
I will go by what the bible says
He chose ME before the foundaion of the world. To be holy and blameless.
He knew me, and then he predestined me to be conformed to the image of God
He knew me, and because he knew me he predestined me, and because he predestined me, he chose me, and because he chose me, he justified me, and because he justified me he WILL glorify me
He predestined me to be adopted as his child
I have obtained an inheritance having been predestined.
You go by whatever you think it says, I will stick wiht the word.
Ps. Knowing OF ME, (knowing who I am and what I would do in the future which is the cause of my predestination or chosing) and knowing me personally (after I am saved( are two different things, But nice try.
I will go by what the bible says
He chose ME before the foundaion of the world. To be holy and blameless.
He knew me, and then he predestined me to be conformed to the image of God
He knew me, and because he knew me he predestined me, and because he predestined me, he chose me, and because he chose me, he justified me, and because he justified me he WILL glorify me
He predestined me to be adopted as his child
I have obtained an inheritance having been predestined.
You go by whatever you think it says, I will stick wiht the word.
Ps. Knowing OF ME, (knowing who I am and what I would do in the future which is the cause of my predestination or chosing) and knowing me personally (after I am saved( are two different things, But nice try.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (referring to those in Christ)with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According (referring back to the spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ) as he hath chosen us in him (Calvinists focus on the us, while the context focuses on in him, in Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we (those in Christ) should be holy and without blame before him in love: (God's choosing was not us, but the method in Christ in which he would bestow spiritual blessings in the heavenly places)
5 Having predestinated us (those in Christ) unto the adoption (future glory of the redemption of the body, Romans 8:23) of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved (in Christ is the context of this entire passage).
7 In whom (in Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself (in Christ):
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom (in Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (those in Christ) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we (those in Christ) should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ (to be in Christ you've got to first trust in Christ).
13 In whom (in Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
In order to be in Christ, you've got to hear the gospel, trust the gospel, and then you are sealed by the Holy Spirit that guarantees the future redemption to those in Christ. That's the entire context of this passage. IN CHRIST! Amen! No one is in Christ before the foundation of the world. It's just not there! The spiritual blessings and redemption was placed in Christ! Christ is God's method for man to receive these blessings.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
*God knows those that are His by the seal of the Holy Spirit He has placed within every believer. God does not know you before you believe upon the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you never trust in Jesus you will hear the words, "depart from me...I never knew you."
Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God (you are known of God after you trust the gospel of Jesus Christ and God places His seal, the Holy Spirit in you), how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (referring to those in Christ)with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According (referring back to the spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ) as he hath chosen us in him (Calvinists focus on the us, while the context focuses on in him, in Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we (those in Christ) should be holy and without blame before him in love: (God's choosing was not us, but the method in Christ in which he would bestow spiritual blessings in the heavenly places)
5 Having predestinated us (those in Christ) unto the adoption (future glory of the redemption of the body, Romans 8:23) of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved (in Christ is the context of this entire passage).
7 In whom (in Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself (in Christ):
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom (in Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (those in Christ) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we (those in Christ) should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ (to be in Christ you've got to first trust in Christ).
13 In whom (in Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
In order to be in Christ, you've got to hear the gospel, trust the gospel, and then you are sealed by the Holy Spirit that guarantees the future redemption to those in Christ. That's the entire context of this passage. IN CHRIST! Amen! No one is in Christ before the foundation of the world. It's just not there! The spiritual blessings and redemption was placed in Christ! Christ is God's method for man to receive these blessings.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
*God knows those that are His by the seal of the Holy Spirit He has placed within every believer. God does not know you before you believe upon the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you never trust in Jesus you will hear the words, "depart from me...I never knew you."
Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God (you are known of God after you trust the gospel of Jesus Christ and God places His seal, the Holy Spirit in you), how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
I merely pointed out that the word "of" was added to the verse by the KJV translators, and some versions translate the words pisteōs Christou Iēsou in Gal 2:16 as "faith in Jesus Christ" as opposed to "faith of Jesus Christ" as shown in the KJV.
That you conclude my clarification of what is written in the Greek to mean I "want to translate it to mean that man plays a part in his eternal salvation by his works" is nothing but blustering on your part because you are unable to invalidate the fact that the word "of" was added to the text.
Rather than address the point that the word "of" was added to the text, you turn to ad hominem attack.
What's up with that???
That you conclude my clarification of what is written in the Greek to mean I "want to translate it to mean that man plays a part in his eternal salvation by his works" is nothing but blustering on your part because you are unable to invalidate the fact that the word "of" was added to the text.
Rather than address the point that the word "of" was added to the text, you turn to ad hominem attack.
What's up with that???
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Because of God's foreknowledge (Ps 53:2-3), The three in one Godhead made a covenant agreement to elect, before the foundation of the world, and make secure, by the sacrifice of his Son, a people that would praise and honor him (Eph 1). All mankind, including his elect people, are born into this world, by natural birth, as depraved because of Adam's sin (Eph 2). Sometime between their natural birth and their natural death God will regenerate his elect. In the process of regeneration God will quicken them, even when they were dead in sins, together with Christ and give them a new heart along with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.(Eph 2:4-5).
Here, the elect are enemies of the gospel...
Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
E
1. I am not Calvinist
2. You ignore US. It does not matter if (And I agree) the focus is in him, but you ignore us.
3. If you ignore us, the verse means nothing.
But hey, I understand you can believe in predestination as scripturally found, because you would have to admit in eternal security. Because of we are predestined (which we are) we also are eternally secure.
2. You ignore US. It does not matter if (And I agree) the focus is in him, but you ignore us.
3. If you ignore us, the verse means nothing.
But hey, I understand you can believe in predestination as scripturally found, because you would have to admit in eternal security. Because of we are predestined (which we are) we also are eternally secure.
I don't ignore the "us", it's just not the context of the passage as Calvinists believe. The "us" are those who would be found in Christ after they hear the gospel and believe the gospel, not anytime before.
I absolutely beyond a doubt believe in eternal security. I've trusted in Christ. God placed His seal upon my soul, sealing my future redemption. It's not about my obedience, but my one time trust in Jesus' shed blood alone for the forgiveness of my sins. Amen!
I absolutely beyond a doubt believe in eternal security. I've trusted in Christ. God placed His seal upon my soul, sealing my future redemption. It's not about my obedience, but my one time trust in Jesus' shed blood alone for the forgiveness of my sins. Amen!
Wonder what that feels like, since I have never experienced it (I guess I am not saved)
One moment I am a sinner, totally unable to understand anything about Jesus even his death on the cross. Or the fact that I am a sinner and deserving of condemnation. I have no desire to have christ, I am his enemy, and the mere thought of recieving him makes me sick as I give him the finger and tell him where to put his gospel.
A second later, it is like a light came on. And all spiritual knowledge is all of a sudden given to me, where I have complete understanding, I suddenly want to recieve christ, I close my fist and stop giving God the finger and telling him where he can put his gift, and ask him to give that gift to me. I get on my knees and I ask him to come into my life (even though he already did)
Yeah, that makes total sense.
One moment I am a sinner, totally unable to understand anything about Jesus even his death on the cross. Or the fact that I am a sinner and deserving of condemnation. I have no desire to have christ, I am his enemy, and the mere thought of recieving him makes me sick as I give him the finger and tell him where to put his gospel.
A second later, it is like a light came on. And all spiritual knowledge is all of a sudden given to me, where I have complete understanding, I suddenly want to recieve christ, I close my fist and stop giving God the finger and telling him where he can put his gift, and ask him to give that gift to me. I get on my knees and I ask him to come into my life (even though he already did)
Yeah, that makes total sense.
E
It may be harsh, But its true, and somewtimes reality can be quite harsh
God gets all the glory.
1. He died on the cross not me
2. He sent the Spirit to convict me of my sin, I did nto convince myself
3. He caused me to see my plight, I did not just see it of my own power
4. He did the work of helping me understand the gospel, I could not understand it on my own
5. He offered me his gift of eternal life based 100% on his work. I ofered myself eternal death based on my sin.
All I did was in faith say yes lord. And God gave me his GIFT.
You do not earn a gift, you recieve it in faith,
You think that is work. You do not know what work is.
God gets all the glory.
1. He died on the cross not me
2. He sent the Spirit to convict me of my sin, I did nto convince myself
3. He caused me to see my plight, I did not just see it of my own power
4. He did the work of helping me understand the gospel, I could not understand it on my own
5. He offered me his gift of eternal life based 100% on his work. I ofered myself eternal death based on my sin.
All I did was in faith say yes lord. And God gave me his GIFT.
You do not earn a gift, you recieve it in faith,
You think that is work. You do not know what work is.
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Oy vey! No obedience? Where do I sign up for this salvation package?
Last time I checked the bible teaches no obedience equals no salvation. No need to get into whether its you obeying or God causing you to obey or influencing you to obey or sanctifying you, doesnt matter. No matter how you slice and dice it, the Bible teaches obedience is required.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
And on and on it goes. Hundreds of passages!
Last time I checked the bible teaches no obedience equals no salvation. No need to get into whether its you obeying or God causing you to obey or influencing you to obey or sanctifying you, doesnt matter. No matter how you slice and dice it, the Bible teaches obedience is required.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
And on and on it goes. Hundreds of passages!
If you are accused of being a Calvinist, you are accused of studying and conforming to his teachings. I have never referenced Calvin's writings or any other man's interpretations. I use the study of the scriptures to prove themselves, in which they do. I believe the scriptures to teach that God has given man a free will to choose how man wants to live his life here on earth, but his eternal destination is totally by God's grace, without the help or consent of man. Man's nature, because of Adam, is to lust after sinful things. Even though we have been regenerated, we still carry the baggage of our sinful nature. Paul references his sinful nature in Gal 5.
The bible was not written to The unregenerate natural man, because he cannot discern spiritual things. It was written to those who are already his children as instructions on how God wants them to live their lives here on earth and that is why we have hundreds of passages about obedience. Scriptures that use the words, repent, confess, believe, accept etc. are instructions to God's disobedient children. There are scriptures telling God's children how that they were saved, but there are no scriptures telling how the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, what he must do to save himself eternally. Where most of God's children get side tracked is their lack of knowledge that salvation, according to Strong's meaning is "a deliverance". When a disobedient child of God repents of a sin that they commit and God forgives them, they have experienced a salvation (deliverance) here on earth.