Predestination or free wiil.

[trofimus]

Notice what it does not say: it does not say he chose us to be in him. Calvinists like to rewrite the Bible to fit their agenda. The spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in v3 is the context. These blessing were placed in Christ. God would choose to give these heavenly blessings to those in him, in Christ. The word "according" at the beginning of v4 put the context back to the previous verse.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I am not sure what you think calvinists say about this verse... can you quote someone?

Also "trying to rewrite Bible to fit the agenda" is a problem of all Christians, not just of one specific group, be just.

 

[John146]

I am not sure what you think calvinists say about this verse... can you quote someone?

Also "trying to rewrite Bible to fit the agenda" is a problem of all Christians, not just of one specific group, be just.

Calvinists use verse 4 to say that they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Talk to any Calvinist and that's how they read it. I've been in several debates over this issue. It's certainly nothing new.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its not like that in calvinism.

IM not a calvinist but how they teach it is:

You are first REGENERATED, and while we may consider regeneration, new birth, salvation, all the same package. They dont.

So you are first regenerated and then you are able and willing to have faith, at which point you are then saved and sealed unto the day of redemption.

The proof-text for this that they use is
1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

To all calvinists, Is this (what I bolded) true? Just asking for confirmation before I make a statement,

 

[John146]

granted, it may not say it chose us to "BE" in him, but it has the same meaning. there is no difference

And it also says what he chose us to be, Holy and without blame in Love.

when? From before the foundation of the world

That's part of the spiritual blessings in heavenly places that are found in Christ. Before the foundation of the world, God chose these spiritual blessings to be given to those in Christ. No one was placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. If that's the case, then they fell out of Christ at the fall and were enemies of Christ until the new birth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Calvinists use verse 4 to say that they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Talk to any Calvinist and that's how they read it. I've been in several debates over this issue. It's certainly nothing new.

That would not make sense, it would mean we were already saved then, That's not what that is saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's part of the spiritual blessings in heavenly places that are found in Christ. Before the foundation of the world, God chose these spiritual blessings to be given to those in Christ. No one was placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. If that's the case, then they fell out of Christ at the fall and were enemies of Christ until the new birth.

It still says their salvation was already known By God. and was just as assured as if they were already saved.

What was given again was what was said,

we were chosen IN HIM to be holy and without blame, ie, our salvation was assured. We were predestined to be saved or holy and without blame.

This part I agree with the calvinist, what I do not agree with is WHY we were predestined or how.

 

[John146]

It still says their salvation was already known By God. and was just as assured as if they were already saved.

What was given again was what was said,

we were chosen IN HIM to be holy and without blame, ie, our salvation was assured. We were predestined to be saved or holy and without blame.

This part I agree with the calvinist, what I do not agree with is WHY we were predestined or how.

Yes, us in him, those of us in Christ. However, one doesn't get in Christ until they hear and believe the gospel of Christ not anytime before. The spiritual blessings were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. Christ was the way God was going to bless the world, especially to them that believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, us in him, those of us in Christ. However, one doesn't get in Christ until they hear and believe the gospel of Christ not anytime before. The spiritual blessings were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. Christ was the way God was going to bless the world, especially to them that believe.

I am not arguing this point, I know it is not actually received until we receive Jesus

I am stating a fact. Jesus KNEW WHO WE WOULD BE before the foundation. ie. Our salvation was secured before that foundation.

The passage says we (I) was PREDESTINED before the world to be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME.

My salvation was already assured, it is not somethign that just popped up the moment I had faith. Thats why I have hope in God, Because God knew from the begining..

 

[John146]

I am not arguing this point, I know it is not actually received until we receive Jesus

I am stating a fact. Jesus KNEW WHO WE WOULD BE before the foundation. ie. Our salvation was secured before that foundation.

The passage says we (I) was PREDESTINED before the world to be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME.

My salvation was already assured, it is not somethign that just popped up the moment I had faith. Thats why I have hope in God, Because God knew from the begining..

The passage does not say we were predestinated before the world to be holy and without blame.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Those who are in him, in Christ, have been predestinated unto the adoption. The adoption is a future even known as the redemption of our bodies.

 

[JaumeJ]

We are not predestined for anything other than to seek truth. When we are so we are at the doorstep of being truthful when we learn it.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life……..no plainer can it be said.

 

[Jackson123]

Im not a calvinist but here is the deal:

the whosoever believes is the elect. because John 6:44 no man can come unless Father draws and God will raise them up at the last day.

The deal with calvinism is that its logically an airtight package. You can never pin these guys down on anything, its an ever moving goalpost.
Once you get them to struggle to explain a couple of verses, they revert to philosophical arguments like "Is faith pleasing to God? Well yeah, so therefore nobody can believe unless God grants them because it says no one in the flesh can do anything to please God" and so on.

This is the reason they love to debate, because they always win by default. The rest of us have no moving goalposts, we have to dig our heels into free will. They say they believe in "free will" as does Matt Slick, while at the same time denying free will, and teaching predestination. Its a "free will within the sinful nature" kind of deal.

Thank bro,

No man come unless father draws.

I believe loving Father draws everybody, because loving Father do not want people go to hell. The problem is not every body accept or agree to be draws by Father.

Draws in this case is invite, the invitation letter is john 3:16

Targeting whosoever believe. Seem to me whosoever mean every body, so the invitation is open to everybody. Up to our free will to accept or respon to the invitation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The passage does not say we were predestinated before the world to be holy and without blame.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

It says Chose US, that WE (same people) Should be holy and without blame.

Not sure why you keep saying it says something does not say it certainly does say

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Again, Predestined US (who is us? that woudl be a group I am part of) To be adopted. what happens to those who are adopted? They are holy and without blame...

Those who are in him, in Christ, have been predestinated unto the adoption. The adoption is a future even known as the redemption of our bodies.

That future even is predestined to occur, Nothing can stop it. It is set in stone. It will happen.. Because God foreknew and those who foreknew he did predestined to also be conformed to the image of God..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are not predestined for anything other than to seek truth. When we are so we are at the doorstep of being truthful when we learn it.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life……..no plainer can it be said.

You need to read this passage and every passage about predestination. Because it says so much more than this..

it does not say I was predestned to seek truth. where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[Jackson123]

Thank bro,

No man come unless father draws.

I believe loving Father draws everybody, because loving Father do not want people go to hell. The problem is not every body accept or agree to be draws by Father.

Draws in this case is invite, the invitation letter is john 3:16

Targeting whosoever believe. Seem to me whosoever mean every body, so the invitation is open to everybody. Up to our free will to accept or respon to the invitation.

Cow is animal, it doesn't mean animal is cow. Animal can be cow or snake etc.

Believer is because draws by Father, it doesn't mean Father not draws non believer. Father may draws non believer, but non believer refused it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Cow is animal, it doesn't mean animal is cow. Animal can be cow or snake etc.

Believer is because draws by Father, it doesn't mean Father not draws non believer. Father may draws non believer, but non believer refused it.

Many are called few are chosen

 

[Jackson123]

Many are called few are chosen

Matt 22
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

God chose people not on random bases. God chose the one that on the wedding garment.

Before the foundation of the world, God create Eden for Adam and his offspring.

But if Adam and his offspring refused His plan Than do not blame God and say God only love some.

Bible say

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To me love the world in this verse mean love all. But only whosoever believe will be save.

Yes there is election, but this verse tell the reason to be elect, and the requairment is believe.

 

[John146]

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

It says Chose US, that WE (same people) Should be holy and without blame.

Not sure why you keep saying it says something does not say it certainly does say

Chose us "in him"...

God chose us who are in Christ. To be part of God's choosing, one must be in Christ. In order to be in Christ, one must know the way in Christ. And that way is through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

When does God know us? When we trust the gospel and are found in Christ. God knows us at salvation.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Chose us "in him"...

God chose us who are in Christ. To be part of God's choosing, one must be in Christ. In order to be in Christ, one must know the way in Christ. And that way is through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

When does God know us? When we trust the gospel and are found in Christ. God knows us at salvation.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

He could not chose us in him before the foundation of the world. Based on his foreknowledge, if he did not know who “us” would be.

 

[Lafftur]

Can anyone here show me where in the Bible is the idea of free wii. Everything about scripture indicates that God knows and plans everything. It makes sense that God plans everything since He knows all.

Hello RDK,

I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:

Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.

So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."

Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.

I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.

On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.

So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.

 

[John146]

He could not chose us in him before the foundation of the world. Based on his foreknowledge, if he did not know who “us” would be.

My thoughts exactly. Allowing Scripture to speak for itself. When did God know you? Before or after salvation?

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?