A place for rapture questions

Wall · Sep 20, 2018

No need to look into the book of revelation to find the "LAST TRUMPET"

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here in Matt. 24 we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. It is the "last trumpet" to be blown. His people gathered {in the twinkling of an eye}. When does this take place? Sun darkened! Moon no light!

JOEL 2 [31] The SUN shall be turned into darkness, and the MOON into blood, BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN BECAME BLACK as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON BECAME AS BLOOD;

Pretty simple

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 20, 2018

The phrase "the moon shall not give her light" (Matt24:29) is completely distinct from "the moon into blood/became as blood" (Joel2:31/Rev6:12), in both DESCRIPTION and TIMING.

The one is "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (which included the "For THEN shall be GREAT tribulation" following the v.15 incident [mid-trib incident]); whereas the other one is said to be "BEFORE the GREAT and terrible" aspect (per the previous parenthetical description, above [that is, this one will occur IN THE FIRST half of the entire 7-yr trib, BEFORE the mid-trib incident and second half]).

"shall not give her light" is completely distinct from "into blood/became as blood"

Ahwatukee · Sep 20, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Good day Hevosmies,

I can answer that one for you. First of all, understand that the word "first" resurrection does not mean "only" resurrection. Here is list of the resurrections mentioned:

* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing - (John 14:1-3, I Thes.4:13-18, I Cor.15:51-53)
* The Male Child/144,0000 - (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11)
* The great tribulation saints - (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above belong to the first resurrection. It just so happens that the designation of "first resurrection" is referred to regarding the great tribulation saints. There are phases or stages to the first resurrection, which are listed above. The first resurrection could be better understood as, "any and all resurrections which take place prior to the end of the thousand years." The on-going problem with expositors, is that when they read the word "first" they interpret it as "only," i.e. only one resurrection. But as you can see from the list above, there are stages to the first resurrection.

If you will notice in Rev.20:6 when speaking of the great tribulation saints and including the previous resurrections which are also apart of the first resurrection, it says "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them." Those whom the second death does have power over are those who do not take part in the first resurrection, which are those of whom the scripture says, "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete." This group that comes to life (resurrects) at the end of the millennial period, will be those who were not worthy of the first resurrection, those who died in their sins. These are unrighteous dead throughout all of history who are being resurrected out of Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne for judgment of their sins.

Consider this, if the great tribulation saints are only to be considered as belonging to the first resurrection, then what resurrection do all those in the list above belong to who are resurrected before them? Remember, Jesus is the first fruits of those who rise from the dead. The church is next. The first resurrection has phases/stages.

Just a correction also, the Male Child being caught up is technically not resurrected, but will be changed and caught up in the same manner as the living church when Christ appears.

Ahwatukee · Sep 20, 2018

Wall said:

Greetings Wall,

Two different trumpet events are being mentioned above. The "last trumpet" is for the gathering of the church and the "great sound of a trumpet" blown when Christ returns to the earth to end the age which signals his angels to gather his elect. They are both different types of trumpets. By making the "last trumpet" and the "great trumpet" the same, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of the God. In addition, the scripture states that the Lord will send his angels with the sound of a "great trumpet" signaling His angels to gather His elect. The elect is referring to those great tribulation saints who will have made it through the seven years alive. These are also those who will go into the millennial period and repopulate the earth, along with Israel. Who the angels will not be gathering is the church. The gathering of the elect is synonymous with the parable of the weeds and the wheat of Matt.13. At the end of the age, the angels go out and "first" collect the weeds to be burned in the furnace (Matt.13:30). After that, they gather the wheat and bring it into the Lord's barn.

That trumpet blown in Matt.24:31 is not the "last trumpet" that Paul was speaking about. Just because the word "trumpet" is used in scripture, it does not mean that the same trumpet is in view. There are many different types of trumpets with different purposes. That said, you and others are erroneously making the "last trumpet" of I Cor.15:52 which calls up the church, with the "loud trumpet" of Matt.24:31 which is used to send out the angels to gather the elect from every corner of the earth, which are those who will have made it through that seven years alive. The angels will be gathering living people, not resurrected people.

The sun being darkened and the moon being turned the color of blood which takes place at the 6th seal, has nothing to do with either the "last trumpet" where the church is gathered, nor with the "loud trumpet" which is sounded when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The 6th seal is apart of the God's wrath, which takes place after the "last trumpet" and before the "loud trumnpet." So, not so simple, as your conclusion is wrong.

Hevosmies · Sep 20, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Good day Hevosmies,

I can answer that one for you. First of all, understand that the word "first" resurrection does not mean "only" resurrection. Here is list of the resurrections mentioned:

* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing - (John 14:1-3, I Thes.4:13-18, I Cor.15:51-53)
* The Male Child/144,0000 - (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11)
* The great tribulation saints - (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above belong to the first resurrection. It just so happens that the designation of "first resurrection" is referred to regarding the great tribulation saints. There are phases or stages to the first resurrection, which are listed above. The first resurrection could be better understood as, "any and all resurrections which take place prior to the end of the thousand years." The on-going problem with expositors, is that when they read the word "first" they interpret it as "only," i.e. only one resurrection. But as you can see from the list above, there are stages to the first resurrection.

If you will notice in Rev.20:6 when speaking of the great tribulation saints and including the previous resurrections which are also apart of the first resurrection, it says "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them." Those whom the second death does have power over are those who do not take part in the first resurrection, which are those of whom the scripture says, "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete." This group that comes to life (resurrects) at the end of the millennial period, will be those who were not worthy of the first resurrection, those who died in their sins. These are unrighteous dead throughout all of history who are being resurrected out of Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne for judgment of their sins.

Consider this, if the great tribulation saints are only to be considered as belonging to the first resurrection, then what resurrection do all those in the list above belong to who are resurrected before them? Remember, Jesus is the first fruits of those who rise from the dead. The church is next. The first resurrection has phases/stages.

Just a correction also, the Male Child being caught up is technically not resurrected, but will be changed and caught up in the same manner as the living church when Christ appears.

Thanks for that. Yeah the first resurrection clearly isnt just "one".

I have a couple more questions:

What about when Jesus says "at the last day"? He will raise us up?

Revelation 16:15 we are deep in the tribulation era and its still saying Jesus will come as athief! Its still future. Oy vey!

Ahwatukee · Sep 20, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Good day Hevosmies,

In answer to your question, I personally don't believe that Jesus was specifying a particular day, but His meaning as to the "last day" would cover or include the entire time period of the last days. Similar to the "Day of the Lord" not referring to just one day, but the entire time of God's wrath. Jesus also refers to the entire time of God's wrath as the "hour of trial" which is also not an hour in length. If I was to paraphrase the scripture above, it would go something like the following:

"and I will raise him up during the last times."

All of the resurrections previously listed take place during the last days. Here again, if Jesus was saying that He would raise the church up at the last day, that being when He returns to the earth to end the age, we are again faced with the other scriptures that we have already gone over which would be in conflict. For it would put the church through the entire wrath of God which believers are not appointed to suffer. And, we would then be hard-pressed to explain how the bride/church is seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses as found in Rev.19:6-8, 14.

garee · Sep 21, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

The last trump (7th) is the loud trump as the voice of many waters.(the word of God) Its the end of the world the last day and not last times.The same day in the twinkling of the eye that the Sun and moon as temporal time keepers are under the feet of the chaste virgin bride of Christ the church pictured in Revelation 12. We can see that by looking at the context in the previous chapter 11. Come up hither. And the whole body of Christ the church ascended up to heaven in a cloud. The third woe cometh quickly -( The last of the series). The day the first death is cast into the lake of fire the second death. The same day believer will receive their new promised incorruptible bodies. the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of God. God shall reign for ever and ever.

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever Revelation 11:12- 15

I would offer. It is clealy last day (singular) and not days or times (plural.)

It is not the last times those times began at the time of the reformation . We can not replace the phrase last day for last times. They are different words just as latter day, and latter days. Change the meaning of one word change the direction of the gospel and therefore violate the law of interpretation in Deuteronomy 4.

Job was given the understanding of the last day the end of the world.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Daniel 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

The time of tribulation that the church is in today will last until the last day or the day of the Lord when He will come as a thief in the night.

There is a difference between last times and last day .

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Six times in the book of John the phrase last day and not last times appears.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Below the final execution of judgemt is the last day.(singular) Not days or times

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I would suggest there is no need to add time to the calendar that God has prepared.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 21, 2018

I believe "the Day of the Lord [time period]" includes ALL THREE of the following:

1) the 7-yr [70th-Wk] tribulation period upon the earth (the "DARK" portion ["IN THE NIGHT"])
2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)
3) the 1000-yr earthly Millennial Kingdom (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion)

It commences at the first SEAL (the "whose coming/ARRIVAL/presence/advent/parousia" of "the man of sin," which equals the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3], which equals the first of the plural "BEGINNING of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus referred to in Matt24:4 and Mark 13:5: the "G5100 - tis - 'a certain one' "... so that 2Th2:9a's "whose coming" [man of sin] refers to the same thing that Dan9:27a(26) does, that is, at the BEGINNING of the 7-yr/70th-Wk; 2Th2:3-9 covering the full 7 years just as Dan9:27[26b] does). This is the "DARK"/"IN THE NIGHT" portion (Dan7:7; etc). All such prophetic days START "the evening before" (i.e. approx. at sundown; at DARK).

In viewing how Hosea 5:15-6:3 speaks of "after two days" and "in the third day" (and speaking in reference to Israel), "the third day" seems to be equivalent to the [overall/wider aspect] "7th Day" (see Ex31:13,17's word "sign" and in relation to whom and what), which is also "The Last Day" (the sabbatismos; the time starting when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" [Rev4-5] and carries on forward via His governmental ruling throughout the earthly MK age... This is what I believe the verses in the above poster's post refer to

[not to a singular 24-hr day] ).

garee · Sep 21, 2018

I believe it would then be written as..... "days (plural) of the Lord" a long time period, and not day as the last. Its the end of temporal time. The Sun and moon as temporal time keepers are under the feet of the bride of Christ the church. She is clothed with the glory of God the righteousness thereof.

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.Revelation 21:22-25

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 21, 2018

garee said:

Well, but I'm saying it STARTS at the "DARK"/"IN THE NIGHT" aspect [the 70th-Wk/7-yrs], then turns to the "SUN...ARISE"/"GLORIOUS" aspect [His "RETURN" to the earth and glorious reign].

The "after two days" and "in the third day" [Hos5:15-6:3] are "Three Days" (though not three 24-hr days), the final one [3rd] of which is "The Last Day" (again, not a 24-hr day). Just like John 5:25 is not referring to a singular, 60-minute "hour".

[1Cor15:28=Eph1:10 (not describing "the here and now" but following the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom which commences upon His "return" to the earth [Lk12:36-37,40,42-44 and Lk19:12,15,17,19--the earthly-located MK (NOT "the Marriage" itself involving "the Bride/Wife [singular]" which will have already taken place IN HEAVEN before His "return"/Rev19/Rev16:14-16/Isa24:21-23 [<--the sequence in this passage agrees: His "return" then the "after many days" [i.e. the MK] shall they "be visited/punished" [GWTj/final carrying out of the sentence])

Ahwatukee · Sep 22, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

I believe "the Day of the Lord [time period]" includes ALL THREE of the following:

1) the 7-yr [70th-Wk] tribulation period upon the earth (the "DARK" portion ["IN THE NIGHT"])
2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)
3) the 1000-yr earthly Millennial Kingdom (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion)

Greetings TheDivineWatermark,

I would have to disagree with your conclusion regarding the day of the Lord including the millennial period and that because we are told what the day of the Lord represents which is as follows:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wail, for the Day of the LORD is near; it will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will fall limp, and every man’s heart will melt. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. - Isa.13:6-9

See, the day of the LORD is coming --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-- to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it."

The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. - Isa.13:9-13

"The great day of the Lord is near—near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry. That day will be a day of wrath—a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness—a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers. “I will bring such distress on all people that they will grope about like those who are blind, because they have sinned against the Lord. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the Lord’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end off all who live on the earth. (Zeph.1:14-18)

"Woe to you who long
for the day of the Lord!
Why do you long for the day of the Lord?
That day will be darkness, not light.

It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.

Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light—
pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness? - Amos 5:18-20

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you can see, the day of the Lord is referring to the time period of God's wrath, which ends with Jesus' return to the earth to end the age. The thousand years, on the other hand, is a time of peace, where according to scripture, a child will be able to play near a Cobra's den and put his hand into a vipers nest and not be harmed. It will be a time when nations will beat their weapons into plowshares and pruning hooks and will not train for war any more, because the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. - Isa.11:6-9

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.

The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

The day of the Lord is then referring to the time of God's wrath and does not include the millennial period.

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

I believe you were originally asking for the pre-trib viewpoint on this. If that is the case (and I am pre-trib), thank you for asking.

I will try to make this as brief as I can, but endeavor to explain as much as possible as I go...)

1Cor15:23 - "[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (means there is an ORDER/SEQUENCE to it, and that there doesn't remain only a singular [so called] "general" resurrection.

1) the Resurrection OF LIFE - JESUS 32ad (1Cor15:20 [fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON Firstfruit]):

--the "many" who, as Matt27:53 says, "came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" (which I believe I already stated that I believe they represent OT saints that will [future] be "resurrected" [that is, to stand again on the earth--see the fourth entry under this section, below]--A LOT happened on this day [Jesus' Resurrection Day/FIRSTFRUIT], and this is just ONE of the things that did; another thing was His "[ACTIVE] ascension" [distinct from the 40-day-later "[passive] went up" into heaven that was VISIBLE, Acts 1:9-11 and context])

--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:19,20-23] (the "DEAD IN CHRIST" portion OF IT who HAVE DIED)--these together [DEAD IN Christ "resurrected"... ALONG WITH we which are ALIVE and remain] alone/solely are "raptured/caught up [harpagēsometha] together [AS ONE]/The Departure *FIRST*/the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR/our episynagōgēs [noun] UNTO HIM"; ...Of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," 2Th2:13 [in some translations] says "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireó] you firstfruit [aparche]"--The "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireó]" is a different Greek word to the usual "chosen" word used when it speaks of God's chosen/choice, and is "probably akin to" (according to some lexicons or concordances) the "G142 - airo" word ("I raise, lift up, take away, remove"); https://biblehub.com/greek/138.htm (scroll down to where it says "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" and the highlighted "airo" which will take you to THAT definition)--Again, this is the ONLY entity ['the Church which is His body'] of which the "Rapture" pertains (not to all other saints of all other time periods--but your question has to do with "resurrection," so back to that...)

--the Two Witnesses (Rev11:11-14; at the time of the [6th Trumpet events]/2nd Woe--which I believe is approx. 3/4 of the way through the 7-yr trib, according to how I've seen the chronology--these ALSO "ascend up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them")

--OT Saints (Daniel 12:13 "at the END of the days [the end of the days referred to in that context, vv.1,6-7, that is, AT THE END of the trib]"; I believe Job 19:25-27 shows this; I believe Matthew 8:11 and parallel indicates this, for the G347 "shall sit down" indicates the Meal, which is the promised and prophesied earthly MK; ALL saints of all times will be present there, none left out [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"... aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, commencing upon His 'RETURN' there]"])

--Saints Who Die/are Martyred in the TRIB (Rev20:4b/Rev13:15/13:7a/Dan7:20b-21)

[ALL THESE ^ are the "Blessed and holy is he that hath A PART IN the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." Rev20:6 (they will be alive to enjoy the promised and prophesied earthly MK--no saints will be left out!)]

2) the Resurrection of damnation/judgment (Rev20:11-13--involves the "[unsaved/unrighteous] dead" of all times)

--Rev20:11-15 (GWTj--eternal separation from God; second death)

--Isaiah 24:21-23 (as I already mentioned, the second part of verse 22, which says, "and AFTER MANY DAYS, they shall be visited/PUNISHED"--this is after their initial punishment [judgment/imprisonment] back at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, 1000-yrs previous to this [these are living ppl at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19:19/16:14-16, but who are against Him, i.e. they die at this point in time... and are given the final sentence carried out at the later GWTj])

The ot saints were raised out of graves as you say at Jesus' resurrection. They left paradise. Went to heaven with Jesus. They are firstfruits. No need for them to be raised again.
The 144k are firstfruit Jews and are in heaven in rev 14. Thats why they are called firstfruit Jews. They precede those Jews gathered with a sickle later in rev 14.
Those 2 components, when added in make a patriarch resurrection after the GT pretty far fetched and outside obvious interpretation.

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2018

DiscipleDave said:

Nobody (except He that has ascended to Heaven, Jesus) is in Heaven, nor in Hell right now. Those who have died in Christ are sleeping right now, and know no time. For them it will be as if they died and Christ is Here raising them from their sleep, to them it will be seconds, even though many years have passed. sleep knows no time.

True. When the New Heaven and New Earth are being created, and the old Heaven and old Earth has passed away, is when Jesus will return and all the dead in Christ will rise first, then Jesus will collect all the living on the planet.

You do error saying "Which occurs {according to scriptures} after the great tribulation" When in Truth, what Scriptures plainly and clearly teaches is Christ will return after the great tribulation OF THOSE DAYS described in the previous verses. leaving that out, is to believe a false doctrine that He Returns at the very end of the Great Tribulation Period, which it does NOT SAY, and He does not do. Jesus will return to set up His Kingdom and Rapture the Church, MID TRIBULATION, not prior to the Great Tibulation Period, not after the Great Tribulation Period, but He will return Mid Tribulation. And there is not one verse contrary to that.

7 year Tribulation Period. 6 trumpets are blown, very bad tribulation period, so great that it was not that bad before nor ever will be again, very bad. When the 6 trumpets are blown is when our Atmosphere (Heaven) and our Earth are destroyed, pass away, it is during the 6 trumpets that the New Earth and New Heaven are being created. Heaven and Earth destroyed and created new during the same time frame. The 7th Trumpet Jesus Returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom of Earth to rule over all those who were not taken up in the Rapture, He will make them worship Him for the following 3 1/2 years (Zech 14) The following 3 1/2 years After Jesus sets up His Kingdom on Earth the 7 vials/bowels will be poured out upon the Earth, for the sole purpose to purge all those who were not taken up in the Rapture off the planet. The 7 Trumpets and the 7 vials is "The Great Tribulation Period" Jesus Christ comes during the 7th Trumpet sounding, the kingdoms of this world will then at that time belong to Him, He will be KING of all the Kings of all the kingdoms on Earth, Hence the reason He is called King of Kings. Which He has never been as of yet, but will be when He Returns. Great Tribulation Period = 7 years = 7 trumpets + 7 vials. Jesus returns at the 7th Trumpet = MID TRIBULATION. These things are what God told me, and nothing He told me contradicts the Word of God. Contradicts the word of men, yes for sure, but not the Word of God.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Read where the ac kills all who refuse the mark. Your scenario makes no provision for that. There are no christians alive mid trib. NONE.
Unless you find some cave dwellers or amazonian natives somewhere.
Just going by the word of God.

You invoke infallibility. You need to stop doing that. You are easily in error.
Doing damage to God's reputation.

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

Basically yes.
A single harvest with 4 parts. ( 3 if corners and gleaners are combined)

But other harvest/s because there is one after the millineum. Where the 2nd death is fulfilled

Wall said:

Then Jesus was wrong when he told the disciples they would be in heaven with him. The innumerable number are in heaven during the GT. 1 thes has the dead in Christ resurrected FIRST, followed by living saints. Rev 14 has a gathering TO HEAVEN,during the GT.
That makes ONLY PRETRIB possible.
Pretrib is the only plausable position.

Test fit. Take all positions,test fit them all.
It is ridiculous to remove the only plausable position.
That concept is called "condemnation before investigation"

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

This is a perfect example of what you and others who resist the truth of God's word do. You discredit the scriptures that are presented and then you ask for proof. Regarding 2 Cor.5:6 the verse means exactly what it says, "to be absent from the body, i.e. our spirit, is to be in the presence of the Lord. It is also supported by what Paul said in Phil.1:22-24

"But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

Well, as I have told you many times, it is not my opinion, but God-Breathed. In the scripture above, Paul he is torn between his spirit departing and being with the Lord vs. remaining in the body to be a benefit to the Philippians. His desire to be with Christ is inferring immediacy, as there is nothing in the scripture that would suggest him going to sleep in the dust of the earth first before he goes to be with Christ. For the believer, at the moment of death, the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.

Regarding the above, Jesus is the only One who came from heaven and then ascended back up into heaven (now pay attention to the following) in a resurrected body! Therefore, when a believer dies and their spirit departs to be in the presence of the Lord, that is not a resurrection. In fact those who depart and are in spirit with the Lord are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies, just like we who are still alive are waiting for the blessed hope, when we will be changed into our immortal bodies and caught up. If you want an example of that, you only need to look at the 5th seal martyrs under the altar in heaven. Another example, which I'm sure that you have parablized, is the event of the rich man and Lazarus. We also have Jesus telling the man next to Him that "today you will be with me in paradise. However, you are probably one of those who claim that the comma is in the wrong place. You people go to a lot of lengths to discredit the truth of God's word. You don't think so now, but you find you soon enough.

No, but that is not the point that Paul was making. Paul is stating that to be absent from the body is to be in the Lord's presence in spirit. I guarantee you that from the time Paul died, as well as all of the other believers who have died since then and up to this very day, their spirits have entered into heaven where they await the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies, where they are conscious and aware. Eccl.9:5 dose not say what you think it says.

That is amazing that you would say that, because that is exactly what scripture says. Otherwise it would say, "to be absent from the body is to be buried and wait for the resurrection in the tomb.

I would add to that,that Jesus as an embodied spirit ate and drank.
Disembodied spirits do not.
He told the disciples they and He would again do passover in heaven (as ,obviously,embodied spirits)

Again,making pretrib the ONLY plausable position

Hevosmies · Sep 22, 2018

Absolutely said:

If there are no christians alive mid-trib. Who populates the millenium? Some do persevere to the end.

Hevosmies · Sep 22, 2018

I got questions for post-tribbers: If the rapture occurs at the second coming:

1. Who populates the millenium? In the parable of wheat and tares, the tares are gathered first, in a post-trib model this would mean there is no one left to populate the millenium. All the saved are in glorified bodies, and all the wicked are destroyed. (2 thess 1:5-8 and matthew 13:30)
2. In Zechariah 14 the Israelites are escaping when the Lord returns to the mount of olives with His saints (ok those are angels, not people, i've heard that argument before lets go with that), the problem is if the rapture is at the second coming, these israelites would not NEED to escape, they would be translated and raptured as Jesus is returning.
3. How do you deal with all the imminent return passages where we are told to await the Lord, the coming is near, soon etc. When all along it wasn't near, we needed to see the antichrist, the rebuilt temple, the apostasy, all kinds of things?
4. What/who is the restrainer talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2?

I also got a couple of questions for pre-tribbers:

1. Why does Jesus say to His disciples "when YOU see" the abomination of desolation, instead of "They", insinuating they would see it, the believers in Christ, and it says they are killed for their faith in Jesus.
2. When does Matthew 25 sheep and goats judgment take place, in light of the parable of the wheat and tares Matt 13:30?
3. Why is there no kind of advice, or warnings (Or are there?) given to people that are "Left behind", how are they supposed to know what to do, and what bible verses to read, and which apply to them?
4. If the rapture is imminent, could it have happened before Peter died, since Jesus said to him he would? Meaning there was no way the rapture could of happened before Peter died, because Jesus spoke the truth.

Im playing two sides of the field here, I hope I get answers from both sides!

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2018

I am pretrib....change my mind.
Show me the gathering (1 thes 4) resurrection of saints AFTER the gathering in rev 14 of saints making 1 thes 4 in error.
Read 1 thes 4 first. Make it a baseline, then show me that gathering of dead saints/rapture after rev 14.
Pretrib rapture it is.
BTW,there is no resurrection in rev 20.
Read it real slow. It is referring to previous resurrections.

Am i wrong???
Show me

Hevosmies said:

Jesus returns with billions of resurreced saints at the end of the GT.
Add to that the heathen and rebellious jews already on earth. Thats is the population of the millineum.

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2018

Hevosmies said:

I got questions for post-tribbers: If the rapture occurs at the second coming:

1. Who populates the millenium? In the parable of wheat and tares, the tares are gathered first, in a post-trib model this would mean there is no one left to populate the millenium. All the saved are in glorified bodies, and all the wicked are destroyed. (2 thess 1:5-8 and matthew 13:30)
2. In Zechariah 14 the Israelites are escaping when the Lord returns to the mount of olives with His saints (ok those are angels, not people, i've heard that argument before lets go with that), the problem is if the rapture is at the second coming, these israelites would not NEED to escape, they would be translated and raptured as Jesus is returning.
3. How do you deal with all the imminent return passages where we are told to await the Lord, the coming is near, soon etc. When all along it wasn't near, we needed to see the antichrist, the rebuilt temple, the apostasy, all kinds of things?
4. What/who is the restrainer talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2?

I also got a couple of questions for pre-tribbers:

1. Why does Jesus say to His disciples "when YOU see" the abomination of desolation, instead of "They", insinuating they would see it, the believers in Christ, and it says they are killed for their faith in Jesus.
2. When does Matthew 25 sheep and goats judgment take place, in light of the parable of the wheat and tares Matt 13:30?
3. Why is there no kind of advice, or warnings (Or are there?) given to people that are "Left behind", how are they supposed to know what to do, and what bible verses to read, and which apply to them?
4. If the rapture is imminent, could it have happened before Peter died, since Jesus said to him he would? Meaning there was no way the rapture could of happened before Peter died, because Jesus spoke the truth.

Im playing two sides of the field here, I hope I get answers from both sides!

The tares are thrown into fire. That judgement is after the millineum. The second death.

Absolutely · Sep 22, 2018

Hevosmies said:

The purpose of the AC is to complete the main harvest. Harvest the nominal Christian.
That is why it says " ...and POWER Was given him to overcome the saints"

He does his job with power. Kills saints. Kills them all. It even says " every man woman and child....all all all take the mark"

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