A place for rapture questions
- Thread starter Wall
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I believe you were originally asking for the pre-trib viewpoint on this. If that is the case (and I am pre-trib), thank you for asking. 
I will try to make this as brief as I can, but endeavor to explain as much as possible as I go...)
1Cor15:23 - "[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (means there is an ORDER/SEQUENCE to it, and that there doesn't remain only a singular [so called] "general" resurrection.
1) the Resurrection OF LIFE - JESUS 32ad (1Cor15:20 [fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON Firstfruit]):
--the "many" who, as Matt27:53 says, "came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" (which I believe I already stated that I believe they represent OT saints that will [future] be "resurrected" [that is, to stand again on the earth--see the fourth entry under this section, below]--A LOT happened on this day [Jesus' Resurrection Day/FIRSTFRUIT], and this is just ONE of the things that did; another thing was His "[ACTIVE] ascension" [distinct from the 40-day-later "[passive] went up" into heaven that was VISIBLE, Acts 1:9-11 and context])
--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:19,20-23] (the "DEAD IN CHRIST" portion OF IT who HAVE DIED)--these together [DEAD IN Christ "resurrected"... ALONG WITH we which are ALIVE and remain] alone/solely are "raptured/caught up [harpagēsometha] together [AS ONE]/The Departure *FIRST*/the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR/our episynagōgēs [noun] UNTO HIM"; ...Of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," 2Th2:13 [in some translations] says "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireó] you firstfruit [aparche]"--The "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireó]" is a different Greek word to the usual "chosen" word used when it speaks of God's chosen/choice, and is "probably akin to" (according to some lexicons or concordances) the "G142 - airo" word ("I raise, lift up, take away, remove"); https://biblehub.com/greek/138.htm (scroll down to where it says "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" and the highlighted "airo" which will take you to THAT definition)--Again, this is the ONLY entity ['the Church which is His body'] of which the "Rapture" pertains (not to all other saints of all other time periods--but your question has to do with "resurrection," so back to that...)
--the Two Witnesses (Rev11:11-14; at the time of the [6th Trumpet events]/2nd Woe--which I believe is approx. 3/4 of the way through the 7-yr trib, according to how I've seen the chronology--these ALSO "ascend up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them")
--OT Saints (Daniel 12:13 "at the END of the days [the end of the days referred to in that context, vv.1,6-7, that is, AT THE END of the trib]"; I believe Job 19:25-27 shows this; I believe Matthew 8:11 and parallel indicates this, for the G347 "shall sit down" indicates the Meal, which is the promised and prophesied earthly MK; ALL saints of all times will be present there, none left out [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"... aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, commencing upon His 'RETURN' there]"])
--Saints Who Die/are Martyred in the TRIB (Rev20:4b/Rev13:15/13:7a/Dan7:20b-21)
[ALL THESE ^ are the "Blessed and holy is he that hath A PART IN the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." Rev20:6 (they will be alive to enjoy the promised and prophesied earthly MK--no saints will be left out!)]
2) the Resurrection of damnation/judgment (Rev20:11-13--involves the "[unsaved/unrighteous] dead" of all times)
--Rev20:11-15 (GWTj--eternal separation from God; second death)
--Isaiah 24:21-23 (as I already mentioned, the second part of verse 22, which says, "and AFTER MANY DAYS, they shall be visited/PUNISHED"--this is after their initial punishment [judgment/imprisonment] back at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, 1000-yrs previous to this [these are living ppl at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19:19/16:14-16, but who are against Him, i.e. they die at this point in time... and are given the final sentence carried out at the later GWTj])
I will try to make this as brief as I can, but endeavor to explain as much as possible as I go...)1Cor15:23 - "[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (means there is an ORDER/SEQUENCE to it, and that there doesn't remain only a singular [so called] "general" resurrection.
1) the Resurrection OF LIFE - JESUS 32ad (1Cor15:20 [fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON Firstfruit]):
--the "many" who, as Matt27:53 says, "came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" (which I believe I already stated that I believe they represent OT saints that will [future] be "resurrected" [that is, to stand again on the earth--see the fourth entry under this section, below]--A LOT happened on this day [Jesus' Resurrection Day/FIRSTFRUIT], and this is just ONE of the things that did; another thing was His "[ACTIVE] ascension" [distinct from the 40-day-later "[passive] went up" into heaven that was VISIBLE, Acts 1:9-11 and context])
--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:19,20-23] (the "DEAD IN CHRIST" portion OF IT who HAVE DIED)--these together [DEAD IN Christ "resurrected"... ALONG WITH we which are ALIVE and remain] alone/solely are "raptured/caught up [harpagēsometha] together [AS ONE]/The Departure *FIRST*/the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR/our episynagōgēs [noun] UNTO HIM"; ...Of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," 2Th2:13 [in some translations] says "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireó] you firstfruit [aparche]"--The "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireó]" is a different Greek word to the usual "chosen" word used when it speaks of God's chosen/choice, and is "probably akin to" (according to some lexicons or concordances) the "G142 - airo" word ("I raise, lift up, take away, remove"); https://biblehub.com/greek/138.htm (scroll down to where it says "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" and the highlighted "airo" which will take you to THAT definition)--Again, this is the ONLY entity ['the Church which is His body'] of which the "Rapture" pertains (not to all other saints of all other time periods--but your question has to do with "resurrection," so back to that...)
--the Two Witnesses (Rev11:11-14; at the time of the [6th Trumpet events]/2nd Woe--which I believe is approx. 3/4 of the way through the 7-yr trib, according to how I've seen the chronology--these ALSO "ascend up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them")
--OT Saints (Daniel 12:13 "at the END of the days [the end of the days referred to in that context, vv.1,6-7, that is, AT THE END of the trib]"; I believe Job 19:25-27 shows this; I believe Matthew 8:11 and parallel indicates this, for the G347 "shall sit down" indicates the Meal, which is the promised and prophesied earthly MK; ALL saints of all times will be present there, none left out [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"... aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, commencing upon His 'RETURN' there]"])
--Saints Who Die/are Martyred in the TRIB (Rev20:4b/Rev13:15/13:7a/Dan7:20b-21)
[ALL THESE ^ are the "Blessed and holy is he that hath A PART IN the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." Rev20:6 (they will be alive to enjoy the promised and prophesied earthly MK--no saints will be left out!)]
2) the Resurrection of damnation/judgment (Rev20:11-13--involves the "[unsaved/unrighteous] dead" of all times)
--Rev20:11-15 (GWTj--eternal separation from God; second death)
--Isaiah 24:21-23 (as I already mentioned, the second part of verse 22, which says, "and AFTER MANY DAYS, they shall be visited/PUNISHED"--this is after their initial punishment [judgment/imprisonment] back at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, 1000-yrs previous to this [these are living ppl at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19:19/16:14-16, but who are against Him, i.e. they die at this point in time... and are given the final sentence carried out at the later GWTj])
Okay, first off, do you see the place where I'd written "[re: resurrection]… but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (what do you believe "IN HIS OWN ORDER" means, that there remains only a SINGULAR ['general'] RESURRECTION?)
… and then do you see where the "1)" and the "2)" are (in my post), and what they involve?
[Rev20:6 "has a part in"--THIS falls under the "1)" only]
By the way, your question doesn't exactly take into consideration the above-mentioned "IN HIS OWN ORDER" (i.e. strawman to say "how many GENERAL resurrections?")
… and then do you see where the "1)" and the "2)" are (in my post), and what they involve?
[Rev20:6 "has a part in"--THIS falls under the "1)" only]
By the way, your question doesn't exactly take into consideration the above-mentioned "IN HIS OWN ORDER" (i.e. strawman to say "how many GENERAL resurrections?")
1 Corinthians 15:20-24 (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Sure as my dog has fleas, scripture says its a general resurrection for all those who are in Christ. Its at the coming of Christ. And looky looky....... There not goin to heaven as the Rapturist claim. We are headin for the kingdom. The 1000 yr period of rest.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Sure as my dog has fleas, scripture says its a general resurrection for all those who are in Christ. Its at the coming of Christ. And looky looky....... There not goin to heaven as the Rapturist claim. We are headin for the kingdom. The 1000 yr period of rest.
The reason i ask this question and the reason the Rapturist wont directly answer that question is the Word of God says there are only 2 general resurrections left to happen.
EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
So which one is this one? Clearly a resurrection. Clearly going to Israel and not heaven as the Rapturist claim. Clearly not the Great White Throne resurrection. Only one left. Yup. Its the 1Cor.15 event. It'll happen in the twinkling of an eye.
EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
So which one is this one? Clearly a resurrection. Clearly going to Israel and not heaven as the Rapturist claim. Clearly not the Great White Throne resurrection. Only one left. Yup. Its the 1Cor.15 event. It'll happen in the twinkling of an eye.
First of all (and I'll try to get to some other points a bit later, if not here), take note of the following concept (in a cpl verses):
Jeremiah 49:36 -
"36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come." [note these people are "scattered to the four winds," which is "into all nations"]
Hosea 2:23a [distinct from 23b about different ppl (the Gentiles)]; this being about Israel -
"23[a] And I will sow her unto me in the earth..."
Then note the distinction I [think I] already showed, between Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10-11/Hosea 2:23a (about Israel) and that of Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b (about the Gentiles).
Then notice that Hosea 5:15 - 6:3 is about Israel (their FUTURE; at a specific time).
Then notice that Daniel 12:1-4,10 is about Israel (their FUTURE; at a specific time) and that this is distinct from the literal/physical "resurrection [not 'rapture']" in Daniel 12:13 (said to be "at the END of the days [the END of the days of that context; so, at the END of the future trib]"). Notice what "the WISE" [of them] go on TO DO, once they come up out of the "dust of the earth" (not literal dirt graves, but "the graveyard of nations" where scattered).
Then notice Romans 11:15 (in the context of Israel's FUTURE), "For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD." [then read again Hosea 5:15-6:3 as well as Ezekiel 37:12-14, 20-23, and note that verse 11 had said, "...Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and OUR HOPE IS LOST: we are cut off for our parts." [this is not a literal/bodily/physical scene here of physically dead people, but of a nation (singular)]
Note the other two passages I supplied (in light of this): Isa26:16-21 (about their "birth pangs") and Jn6:39 (distinct from Jn6:40).
Note that verse 21 says, "I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen [Gentile nations], whither they be gone, and will gather them of every side, and will bring them into their own land" and verse 23 states, "... I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God." [again note Rom9:26/Hos1:10-11/Hos2:23a about Israel (which is distinct from Rom9:25/Hos23:b [about the Gentiles])--this is Israel's FUTURE]
Then note what I'd put about how Matt24:29-31 (at END of trib) is what Isaiah 27:12-13 (note "who" and "where to" [also Isa24:21-23 and ITS TIMING when compared with Rev19:19/16:14-16 (END of trib)]) and "how": "ye [Israel] shall be gathered ONE BY ONE [not 'AS ONE' as 'His BODY' will be]. This is NOT the Rapture (which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods).
Note again that the list of passages I supplied that refer to Israel coming up out of the graveyards of nations is not referring to a physical/bodily resurrection of formerly physically/bodily dead persons [Rom11:15 (25), quoted above]
Jeremiah 49:36 -
"36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come." [note these people are "scattered to the four winds," which is "into all nations"]
Hosea 2:23a [distinct from 23b about different ppl (the Gentiles)]; this being about Israel -
"23[a] And I will sow her unto me in the earth..."
Then note the distinction I [think I] already showed, between Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10-11/Hosea 2:23a (about Israel) and that of Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b (about the Gentiles).
Then notice that Hosea 5:15 - 6:3 is about Israel (their FUTURE; at a specific time).
Then notice that Daniel 12:1-4,10 is about Israel (their FUTURE; at a specific time) and that this is distinct from the literal/physical "resurrection [not 'rapture']" in Daniel 12:13 (said to be "at the END of the days [the END of the days of that context; so, at the END of the future trib]"). Notice what "the WISE" [of them] go on TO DO, once they come up out of the "dust of the earth" (not literal dirt graves, but "the graveyard of nations" where scattered).
Then notice Romans 11:15 (in the context of Israel's FUTURE), "For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD." [then read again Hosea 5:15-6:3 as well as Ezekiel 37:12-14, 20-23, and note that verse 11 had said, "...Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and OUR HOPE IS LOST: we are cut off for our parts." [this is not a literal/bodily/physical scene here of physically dead people, but of a nation (singular)]
Note the other two passages I supplied (in light of this): Isa26:16-21 (about their "birth pangs") and Jn6:39 (distinct from Jn6:40).
Note that verse 21 says, "I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen [Gentile nations], whither they be gone, and will gather them of every side, and will bring them into their own land" and verse 23 states, "... I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God." [again note Rom9:26/Hos1:10-11/Hos2:23a about Israel (which is distinct from Rom9:25/Hos23:b [about the Gentiles])--this is Israel's FUTURE]
Then note what I'd put about how Matt24:29-31 (at END of trib) is what Isaiah 27:12-13 (note "who" and "where to" [also Isa24:21-23 and ITS TIMING when compared with Rev19:19/16:14-16 (END of trib)]) and "how": "ye [Israel] shall be gathered ONE BY ONE [not 'AS ONE' as 'His BODY' will be]. This is NOT the Rapture (which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods).
Note again that the list of passages I supplied that refer to Israel coming up out of the graveyards of nations is not referring to a physical/bodily resurrection of formerly physically/bodily dead persons [Rom11:15 (25), quoted above]
Hello Wall,
On what grounds are saying that "They're not goin to heaven as the Rapturist claim?"
There are phasse or stages to the first resurrection. Everyone who takes part in those phases belong to the first resurrection. There will also be two groups who will be caught up:
Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection = 1 Cor.15:20
The church at the Lord's appearing = John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, I Cor.15:51-53
The Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 which unbelieving Israel gives birth to = Rev.12:5
The two witnesses = Rev.11:11-12
The great tribulation saints = Rev.20:4-6
All of the above belong to the first resurrection. Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years are those who do not belong to the first resurrection, these are those whom the second death has power over, the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. For they will be released from Sheol/Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. Regarding "They're not going to heaven" John 14:1-3 indeed shows the church will be resurrected and taken back to heaven:
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."
In the scripture above, Jesus said that His Father's has many rooms, i.e. dwelling places and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He would come back and take us to be where He is. The Father's could be none other than heaven and that is where Jesus is coming from to get us. In support of Jesus being heaven, scripture does state that He ascended to the right hand of the Father where He makes intercession for believers. I would make note of what Jesus said at the end of that scripture "You know the way to the place where I am going." The place where He was going would infer heaven, since that is where the Father's house is and as previously mention, is also where Christ ascend to at the right hand of the Father.
In further support that the church is going to be gathered and taken back to the Father's house in heaven, scripture shows that the bride/church as being heaven being present at the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven as He returns to the earth to end the age - Rev.19:6-8, 14.
In I Cor.15:26-27 Paul says that "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." Death is not destroyed until the great throne judgment which takes place after the thousand year reign of Christ and therefore cannot be referring to the beginning of the thousand years. Therefore, Paul is generalizing, and not speaking sequentially. In other words the resurrection does not take place just prior to the end.
The next phase of the first resurrection will be the church being gathered according the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, with I Thes.4:13-18 being the detailed account of that event. Following that will be the revealing of the antichrist and the initiation of that last seven years during which time the wrath of God will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
On what grounds are saying that "They're not goin to heaven as the Rapturist claim?"
There are phasse or stages to the first resurrection. Everyone who takes part in those phases belong to the first resurrection. There will also be two groups who will be caught up:
Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection = 1 Cor.15:20
The church at the Lord's appearing = John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, I Cor.15:51-53
The Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 which unbelieving Israel gives birth to = Rev.12:5
The two witnesses = Rev.11:11-12
The great tribulation saints = Rev.20:4-6
All of the above belong to the first resurrection. Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years are those who do not belong to the first resurrection, these are those whom the second death has power over, the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. For they will be released from Sheol/Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. Regarding "They're not going to heaven" John 14:1-3 indeed shows the church will be resurrected and taken back to heaven:
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."
In the scripture above, Jesus said that His Father's has many rooms, i.e. dwelling places and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He would come back and take us to be where He is. The Father's could be none other than heaven and that is where Jesus is coming from to get us. In support of Jesus being heaven, scripture does state that He ascended to the right hand of the Father where He makes intercession for believers. I would make note of what Jesus said at the end of that scripture "You know the way to the place where I am going." The place where He was going would infer heaven, since that is where the Father's house is and as previously mention, is also where Christ ascend to at the right hand of the Father.
In further support that the church is going to be gathered and taken back to the Father's house in heaven, scripture shows that the bride/church as being heaven being present at the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven as He returns to the earth to end the age - Rev.19:6-8, 14.
In I Cor.15:26-27 Paul says that "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." Death is not destroyed until the great throne judgment which takes place after the thousand year reign of Christ and therefore cannot be referring to the beginning of the thousand years. Therefore, Paul is generalizing, and not speaking sequentially. In other words the resurrection does not take place just prior to the end.
The next phase of the first resurrection will be the church being gathered according the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, with I Thes.4:13-18 being the detailed account of that event. Following that will be the revealing of the antichrist and the initiation of that last seven years during which time the wrath of God will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if everyone would who has been deceived by so many of these false teachings would just set those teachings aside and read the word of God in the plain literal sense while also recognizing where symbolism is being used. Regarding the Lord's coming for His church, God's word says:
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well
"Therefore encourage one another with these words."
"as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
"You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming."
If believers in Christ were to go through the time of God's wrath, our hearts would indeed be troubled, we could not encourage one another with the Lord's promise of coming to get us, it would be no blessed hope and we would certainly would have no desire to speed its coming. Here's something else for all who continue to resist the scriptures and therefore the Lord's promise to gather His church before His wrath is poured out and not after:
In 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul gives us a detailed account of the Lord's promise regarding His promise in John 14:1-3 when He comes to gather His church. Following that, He says the following:
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."
In verse 1 in the scripture above, in speaking about the resurrection and the living in Christ being changed and caught up, Paul says, "about those times and dates we do not to write to you" and that because Paul had previously taught them that the Lord would come like a thief in the night. Then He follows regarding those people (unbelievers) who will be saying "peace and safety" that destruction would come upon them suddenly, which is referring to God's time of wrath. Notice that the chronological order of these events is first, Paul's description of the catching up of the church, which is then followed by the fate of unbelievers which will be sudden destruction, i.e. God's wrath upon the earth. Regarding the gathering and the coming destruction, Paul then goes on to say the following:
"and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
Notice that right after Paul says "and they will not escape" he says, "But you brothers." With just those three words it would infer the opposite of not escaping, i.e. "but you brothers will escape." He goes on to say that "we are not in darkness that this day should surprise you like a thief." That said, if both those of the light and those who belong to the darkness (righteous and the wicked) go through the same time of destruction, what difference would there be between the two? What benefit would there be for believers if they suffered the same fate as the wicked? Also, going back, notice that Paul uses the word "escape", as in, "they will not escape." It infers that "you brothers will escape." How do they escape? by exactly what Paul previously wrote about regarding the Lord descending to the sky and calling up His church and taking them back to His Father's house. The reason that the wicked will not escape, is because they are not believers and therefore will not be worthy of the resurrection of the church and will be trapped during the time of God's wrath. There is another scripture that Jesus spoke of to His disciples and to all believers which I believe is hinting at the gathering of the church:
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
I believe that the reference to "that day will close on you like a trap" is synonymous with "and they will not escape." Jesus said, at that time, when all that is about to happen, i.e. God's wrath, will come upon the whole world and they we may be able to escape. I believe that the escape that the Lord was speaking of is hinting at the event of the church being gathered. Otherwise, what difference would it make to be careful with not partying, getting drunk and having our focus on the things of this earth and on this life, which is what the wicked do, if both groups were to suffer the same wrath?
And for those who would say, "God is going to protect the church of believers during the time of His wrath" then they do not understand the severity and magnitude of that coming wrath, because it is going to decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human government. This is supported regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, when He said, "It will be a time of great tribulation (God's) unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth."
I know that you know all of this Nehemiah6, because I see that you study by your postings and responses, so this information is to them, even though I know that they will continue to resist it.
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well
"Therefore encourage one another with these words."
"as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
"You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming."
If believers in Christ were to go through the time of God's wrath, our hearts would indeed be troubled, we could not encourage one another with the Lord's promise of coming to get us, it would be no blessed hope and we would certainly would have no desire to speed its coming. Here's something else for all who continue to resist the scriptures and therefore the Lord's promise to gather His church before His wrath is poured out and not after:
In 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul gives us a detailed account of the Lord's promise regarding His promise in John 14:1-3 when He comes to gather His church. Following that, He says the following:
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."
In verse 1 in the scripture above, in speaking about the resurrection and the living in Christ being changed and caught up, Paul says, "about those times and dates we do not to write to you" and that because Paul had previously taught them that the Lord would come like a thief in the night. Then He follows regarding those people (unbelievers) who will be saying "peace and safety" that destruction would come upon them suddenly, which is referring to God's time of wrath. Notice that the chronological order of these events is first, Paul's description of the catching up of the church, which is then followed by the fate of unbelievers which will be sudden destruction, i.e. God's wrath upon the earth. Regarding the gathering and the coming destruction, Paul then goes on to say the following:
"and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
Notice that right after Paul says "and they will not escape" he says, "But you brothers." With just those three words it would infer the opposite of not escaping, i.e. "but you brothers will escape." He goes on to say that "we are not in darkness that this day should surprise you like a thief." That said, if both those of the light and those who belong to the darkness (righteous and the wicked) go through the same time of destruction, what difference would there be between the two? What benefit would there be for believers if they suffered the same fate as the wicked? Also, going back, notice that Paul uses the word "escape", as in, "they will not escape." It infers that "you brothers will escape." How do they escape? by exactly what Paul previously wrote about regarding the Lord descending to the sky and calling up His church and taking them back to His Father's house. The reason that the wicked will not escape, is because they are not believers and therefore will not be worthy of the resurrection of the church and will be trapped during the time of God's wrath. There is another scripture that Jesus spoke of to His disciples and to all believers which I believe is hinting at the gathering of the church:
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
I believe that the reference to "that day will close on you like a trap" is synonymous with "and they will not escape." Jesus said, at that time, when all that is about to happen, i.e. God's wrath, will come upon the whole world and they we may be able to escape. I believe that the escape that the Lord was speaking of is hinting at the event of the church being gathered. Otherwise, what difference would it make to be careful with not partying, getting drunk and having our focus on the things of this earth and on this life, which is what the wicked do, if both groups were to suffer the same wrath?
And for those who would say, "God is going to protect the church of believers during the time of His wrath" then they do not understand the severity and magnitude of that coming wrath, because it is going to decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human government. This is supported regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, when He said, "It will be a time of great tribulation (God's) unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth."
I know that you know all of this Nehemiah6, because I see that you study by your postings and responses, so this information is to them, even though I know that they will continue to resist it.
-
1
- Show all
Nobody (except He that has ascended to Heaven, Jesus) is in Heaven, nor in Hell right now. Those who have died in Christ are sleeping right now, and know no time. For them it will be as if they died and Christ is Here raising them from their sleep, to them it will be seconds, even though many years have passed. sleep knows no time.
True. When the New Heaven and New Earth are being created, and the old Heaven and old Earth has passed away, is when Jesus will return and all the dead in Christ will rise first, then Jesus will collect all the living on the planet.
You do error saying "Which occurs {according to scriptures} after the great tribulation" When in Truth, what Scriptures plainly and clearly teaches is Christ will return after the great tribulation OF THOSE DAYS described in the previous verses. leaving that out, is to believe a false doctrine that He Returns at the very end of the Great Tribulation Period, which it does NOT SAY, and He does not do. Jesus will return to set up His Kingdom and Rapture the Church, MID TRIBULATION, not prior to the Great Tibulation Period, not after the Great Tribulation Period, but He will return Mid Tribulation. And there is not one verse contrary to that.
7 year Tribulation Period. 6 trumpets are blown, very bad tribulation period, so great that it was not that bad before nor ever will be again, very bad. When the 6 trumpets are blown is when our Atmosphere (Heaven) and our Earth are destroyed, pass away, it is during the 6 trumpets that the New Earth and New Heaven are being created. Heaven and Earth destroyed and created new during the same time frame. The 7th Trumpet Jesus Returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom of Earth to rule over all those who were not taken up in the Rapture, He will make them worship Him for the following 3 1/2 years (Zech 14) The following 3 1/2 years After Jesus sets up His Kingdom on Earth the 7 vials/bowels will be poured out upon the Earth, for the sole purpose to purge all those who were not taken up in the Rapture off the planet. The 7 Trumpets and the 7 vials is "The Great Tribulation Period" Jesus Christ comes during the 7th Trumpet sounding, the kingdoms of this world will then at that time belong to Him, He will be KING of all the Kings of all the kingdoms on Earth, Hence the reason He is called King of Kings. Which He has never been as of yet, but will be when He Returns. Great Tribulation Period = 7 years = 7 trumpets + 7 vials. Jesus returns at the 7th Trumpet = MID TRIBULATION. These things are what God told me, and nothing He told me contradicts the Word of God. Contradicts the word of men, yes for sure, but not the Word of God.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
True. When the New Heaven and New Earth are being created, and the old Heaven and old Earth has passed away, is when Jesus will return and all the dead in Christ will rise first, then Jesus will collect all the living on the planet.
You do error saying "Which occurs {according to scriptures} after the great tribulation" When in Truth, what Scriptures plainly and clearly teaches is Christ will return after the great tribulation OF THOSE DAYS described in the previous verses. leaving that out, is to believe a false doctrine that He Returns at the very end of the Great Tribulation Period, which it does NOT SAY, and He does not do. Jesus will return to set up His Kingdom and Rapture the Church, MID TRIBULATION, not prior to the Great Tibulation Period, not after the Great Tribulation Period, but He will return Mid Tribulation. And there is not one verse contrary to that.
7 year Tribulation Period. 6 trumpets are blown, very bad tribulation period, so great that it was not that bad before nor ever will be again, very bad. When the 6 trumpets are blown is when our Atmosphere (Heaven) and our Earth are destroyed, pass away, it is during the 6 trumpets that the New Earth and New Heaven are being created. Heaven and Earth destroyed and created new during the same time frame. The 7th Trumpet Jesus Returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom of Earth to rule over all those who were not taken up in the Rapture, He will make them worship Him for the following 3 1/2 years (Zech 14) The following 3 1/2 years After Jesus sets up His Kingdom on Earth the 7 vials/bowels will be poured out upon the Earth, for the sole purpose to purge all those who were not taken up in the Rapture off the planet. The 7 Trumpets and the 7 vials is "The Great Tribulation Period" Jesus Christ comes during the 7th Trumpet sounding, the kingdoms of this world will then at that time belong to Him, He will be KING of all the Kings of all the kingdoms on Earth, Hence the reason He is called King of Kings. Which He has never been as of yet, but will be when He Returns. Great Tribulation Period = 7 years = 7 trumpets + 7 vials. Jesus returns at the 7th Trumpet = MID TRIBULATION. These things are what God told me, and nothing He told me contradicts the Word of God. Contradicts the word of men, yes for sure, but not the Word of God.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Could you show me Scriptures that teach what you are saying here, or is this just your opinion? i know there are Scriptures that teach we return to dust, but i don't know of any Scriptures whatsoever that teach that someone other than Jesus ONLY has ascended up to Heaven where the Father is. Oh, and please don't try to use the verse:
2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
i also would rather be absent from this body and present with the Lord, does NOT make it so, now does it. To assume that if a person is absent from the Body they are present with the Lord is to ADD to the Word of God, which simply is not there to begin with. Only one has ascended up to the Father and that is Jesus. Scriptures plainly teach that one day that Jesus will Return and it is on that day that the church is Raptured up, it is ONLY on that Day that the Book of Life is opened to determine who will go to Heaven and who will not go to Heaven, but ONLY on that Day. So you teach that Job's spirit is in the presence of the Lord, can you reveal the Scriptures that teach that, or is that your opinion?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
i also would rather be absent from this body and present with the Lord, does NOT make it so, now does it. To assume that if a person is absent from the Body they are present with the Lord is to ADD to the Word of God, which simply is not there to begin with. Only one has ascended up to the Father and that is Jesus. Scriptures plainly teach that one day that Jesus will Return and it is on that day that the church is Raptured up, it is ONLY on that Day that the Book of Life is opened to determine who will go to Heaven and who will not go to Heaven, but ONLY on that Day. So you teach that Job's spirit is in the presence of the Lord, can you reveal the Scriptures that teach that, or is that your opinion?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
i agree with most of what you say above, except the very last line. Where in Scriptures does it teach or say the Day of the Lord takes place AFTER all the tribulations that happen during the 7 year Tribulation Period. You are not understanding this verse at all:
Mat_24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Here is what you are seeing when you read the above verse:
Mat_24:29 Immediately after the tribulation shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
That is NOT what Scriptures are teaching, but is what you are teaching. Because you omit "of those days" changes the verse to mean AFTER the entire Tribulation Period. You do error, and do not understand the TRUTH. Jesus will come back immediately after the tribulation OF THOSE DAYS described in the previous verses 5-28. A particular time during the Great Tribulation Period. Pay attention how Matthew and Mark say:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark sums it up also, stating plainly and clearly that it is only that part of the entire tribulation period, and not the entire Tribulation Period like you are teaching.
You are teaching that Christ Returns AFTER the entire Tribulation Period. The Apostle Matthew teaches, He Returns after the Tribulation of those days that Jesus just got done describing in verses 6-28, which is NOT the whole Tribulation Period, but just a description of the worst part of the Great Tribulation Period. The Apostle Mark teaches the exact same thing by saying "in Those Days, after that tribulation" NOT AFTER the Great Tribulation Period like you are teaching falsely.
Jesus Christ Returns to set up His Kingdom on Earth at the 7th Trumpet sounding. AFTER that 7 vials/bowels are poured out upon the Earth, which is also a part of the Great Tribulation Period. Now granted the worst part of that Great Tribulation Period is going to be the first 3 1/2 years of it, during the 6 trumpets being blown. IF Jesus does not come when He does at the 7th Trumpet, all life on the planet Earth would cease to exist period, because those times are so bad. But the 7 trumpets are NOT the entirety of the Great Tribulation Period. The first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year Great Tribulation period will be the worst ever, never to be repeated again. it is during that time that the Earth and our Atmosphere is transformed into a NEW Earth and NEW Atmosphere, Everything on Fire, lakes boiling, and the such. Lo, i have told you the Truth concerning this, but i can't take credit for this Truth, but will give it to whom it belongs to, despite this generation thinking i am nuts because i says so, but God told me these things. He deserves all the credit for the TRUTHS which HE told me to tell this generation who would not believe it. Yeah He told me that also.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Mat_24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Here is what you are seeing when you read the above verse:
Mat_24:29 Immediately after the tribulation shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
That is NOT what Scriptures are teaching, but is what you are teaching. Because you omit "of those days" changes the verse to mean AFTER the entire Tribulation Period. You do error, and do not understand the TRUTH. Jesus will come back immediately after the tribulation OF THOSE DAYS described in the previous verses 5-28. A particular time during the Great Tribulation Period. Pay attention how Matthew and Mark say:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mark sums it up also, stating plainly and clearly that it is only that part of the entire tribulation period, and not the entire Tribulation Period like you are teaching.
You are teaching that Christ Returns AFTER the entire Tribulation Period. The Apostle Matthew teaches, He Returns after the Tribulation of those days that Jesus just got done describing in verses 6-28, which is NOT the whole Tribulation Period, but just a description of the worst part of the Great Tribulation Period. The Apostle Mark teaches the exact same thing by saying "in Those Days, after that tribulation" NOT AFTER the Great Tribulation Period like you are teaching falsely.
Jesus Christ Returns to set up His Kingdom on Earth at the 7th Trumpet sounding. AFTER that 7 vials/bowels are poured out upon the Earth, which is also a part of the Great Tribulation Period. Now granted the worst part of that Great Tribulation Period is going to be the first 3 1/2 years of it, during the 6 trumpets being blown. IF Jesus does not come when He does at the 7th Trumpet, all life on the planet Earth would cease to exist period, because those times are so bad. But the 7 trumpets are NOT the entirety of the Great Tribulation Period. The first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year Great Tribulation period will be the worst ever, never to be repeated again. it is during that time that the Earth and our Atmosphere is transformed into a NEW Earth and NEW Atmosphere, Everything on Fire, lakes boiling, and the such. Lo, i have told you the Truth concerning this, but i can't take credit for this Truth, but will give it to whom it belongs to, despite this generation thinking i am nuts because i says so, but God told me these things. He deserves all the credit for the TRUTHS which HE told me to tell this generation who would not believe it. Yeah He told me that also.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
lol if i said this is what I believe, that you would believe, but if i tell you the TRUTH that God told me, then that is spiritual arrogance. lol
Which of the prophets of God were not killed by those who believed they did NOT hear from God?
tool of satan: Get people to believe prophets don't exist, for when they do show up in the last days who will believe that God speaks to them. lol.
Doesn't Scriptures plainly teach to try the spirits, you have not done this, you merely cast judgment on me because i said "God told me" Why is that? What, because God did not speak to you, He must not speak to anyone? How is that not in itself spiritual arrogance?
If i were arrogant, i would claim these Truths that i teach as coming from me, that i am the one that came up with these truths. But i tell you the TRUTH, and give God the credit for what He has told me, and you accuse me of spiritual arrogance. Know you not that calling that which is good evil is not of God? What then, i am evil because i tell you the TRUTH, that i have had many conversations with God, if i lie, then may all those that i love and that love me, die a horrible painful longsuffering death. my mom yet lives, my dad yet lives, my children yet live, my siblings yet live. If i am lying let me burn in hell for all eternity.
Spiritual Arrogance is for those who believe God doesn't speak to people, because He does not speak to them.
Still love you, though, even though you judged me falsely.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Which of the prophets of God were not killed by those who believed they did NOT hear from God?
tool of satan: Get people to believe prophets don't exist, for when they do show up in the last days who will believe that God speaks to them. lol.
Doesn't Scriptures plainly teach to try the spirits, you have not done this, you merely cast judgment on me because i said "God told me" Why is that? What, because God did not speak to you, He must not speak to anyone? How is that not in itself spiritual arrogance?
If i were arrogant, i would claim these Truths that i teach as coming from me, that i am the one that came up with these truths. But i tell you the TRUTH, and give God the credit for what He has told me, and you accuse me of spiritual arrogance. Know you not that calling that which is good evil is not of God? What then, i am evil because i tell you the TRUTH, that i have had many conversations with God, if i lie, then may all those that i love and that love me, die a horrible painful longsuffering death. my mom yet lives, my dad yet lives, my children yet live, my siblings yet live. If i am lying let me burn in hell for all eternity.
Spiritual Arrogance is for those who believe God doesn't speak to people, because He does not speak to them.
Still love you, though, even though you judged me falsely.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
This is a perfect example of what you and others who resist the truth of God's word do. You discredit the scriptures that are presented and then you ask for proof. Regarding 2 Cor.5:6 the verse means exactly what it says, "to be absent from the body, i.e. our spirit, is to be in the presence of the Lord. It is also supported by what Paul said in Phil.1:22-24
"But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
Well, as I have told you many times, it is not my opinion, but God-Breathed. In the scripture above, Paul he is torn between his spirit departing and being with the Lord vs. remaining in the body to be a benefit to the Philippians. His desire to be with Christ is inferring immediacy, as there is nothing in the scripture that would suggest him going to sleep in the dust of the earth first before he goes to be with Christ. For the believer, at the moment of death, the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.
Regarding the above, Jesus is the only One who came from heaven and then ascended back up into heaven (now pay attention to the following) in a resurrected body! Therefore, when a believer dies and their spirit departs to be in the presence of the Lord, that is not a resurrection. In fact those who depart and are in spirit with the Lord are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies, just like we who are still alive are waiting for the blessed hope, when we will be changed into our immortal bodies and caught up. If you want an example of that, you only need to look at the 5th seal martyrs under the altar in heaven. Another example, which I'm sure that you have parablized, is the event of the rich man and Lazarus. We also have Jesus telling the man next to Him that "today you will be with me in paradise. However, you are probably one of those who claim that the comma is in the wrong place. You people go to a lot of lengths to discredit the truth of God's word. You don't think so now, but you find you soon enough.
No, but that is not the point that Paul was making. Paul is stating that to be absent from the body is to be in the Lord's presence in spirit. I guarantee you that from the time Paul died, as well as all of the other believers who have died since then and up to this very day, their spirits have entered into heaven where they await the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies, where they are conscious and aware. Eccl.9:5 dose not say what you think it says.
That is amazing that you would say that, because that is exactly what scripture says. Otherwise it would say, "to be absent from the body is to be buried and wait for the resurrection in the tomb.
"But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
Well, as I have told you many times, it is not my opinion, but God-Breathed. In the scripture above, Paul he is torn between his spirit departing and being with the Lord vs. remaining in the body to be a benefit to the Philippians. His desire to be with Christ is inferring immediacy, as there is nothing in the scripture that would suggest him going to sleep in the dust of the earth first before he goes to be with Christ. For the believer, at the moment of death, the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.
Regarding the above, Jesus is the only One who came from heaven and then ascended back up into heaven (now pay attention to the following) in a resurrected body! Therefore, when a believer dies and their spirit departs to be in the presence of the Lord, that is not a resurrection. In fact those who depart and are in spirit with the Lord are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies, just like we who are still alive are waiting for the blessed hope, when we will be changed into our immortal bodies and caught up. If you want an example of that, you only need to look at the 5th seal martyrs under the altar in heaven. Another example, which I'm sure that you have parablized, is the event of the rich man and Lazarus. We also have Jesus telling the man next to Him that "today you will be with me in paradise. However, you are probably one of those who claim that the comma is in the wrong place. You people go to a lot of lengths to discredit the truth of God's word. You don't think so now, but you find you soon enough.
No, but that is not the point that Paul was making. Paul is stating that to be absent from the body is to be in the Lord's presence in spirit. I guarantee you that from the time Paul died, as well as all of the other believers who have died since then and up to this very day, their spirits have entered into heaven where they await the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies, where they are conscious and aware. Eccl.9:5 dose not say what you think it says.
That is amazing that you would say that, because that is exactly what scripture says. Otherwise it would say, "to be absent from the body is to be buried and wait for the resurrection in the tomb.
-
1
- Show all
Not a salvation issue .More of how can we hear God who hides his spiritual understanding in parables. Without parable He spoke not.
The Son of God, Christ came in the Spirit and left in the Spirit . God is not a man as us . He used the flesh of man typified as sinful to put away sin in the flesh as a one time demonstration of spiritual work not seen(Romans 8:3)The pouring out of his unseen Spirit
Some did know him after the flesh for short that time period .(2 Corinthians 5:16) The Spirit of Christ informs us we know him no more forever more in that way . God is Spirit as the faithful Creator without form.
The first resurrection that was promised to the old testament saints began when their graves were opened all of those who had been in Abrahams bosom (the presence of God) as a temporal holding place until the demonstration (the veil was rent ). They arose to mansion Christ had ben preparing called the New Jerusalem (the bride of Christ the church ).
Ezekiel 37:13And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Up represents the resurrection/rapture or arose in the new testament fulfillment
Matthew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
This was the first resurrection and now that Christ has already finished the work of preparing the mansion with many room mant angel witnessed the event.
To be absent of the body is to participate in the first resurrection, the second resurrection will be on the last day. The day that those saints on earth will be risen with the saints that have left this realm under the Sin and together in the twinkling of the eye both will receive the promise of faith, our new incorruptible bodies.
On that same last day as the elements go up in smoke those who did not receive a new eternal Spirit of Christ, they will never rise to new .spirit life. When those who do not have the Spirit of Christ die their temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father of spirits and their lifeless spiritless bodies will return to the dust.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
People who cannot get oxygen cannot take in the breath needed to have life, they are not conscience of anything . They who have no spirit life cannot thirst for water without a tongue .
Its universal Alzheimer's for all flesh. When the believer is awoken by the call of Christ in the new heavens and earth the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind .
Fortunately for those who remain on earth that we do not lose our memories of them. It is a act of God's mercy to give us good memories of those who have departed.
Proverbs 10:7 The memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot.
Now is the time we can offer our good works in respect to His name . He promises us he will not forget how we worked with Him who works in us to both will and do his good pleasure.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.Ecc.9:5-7
The Son of God, Christ came in the Spirit and left in the Spirit . God is not a man as us . He used the flesh of man typified as sinful to put away sin in the flesh as a one time demonstration of spiritual work not seen(Romans 8:3)The pouring out of his unseen Spirit
Some did know him after the flesh for short that time period .(2 Corinthians 5:16) The Spirit of Christ informs us we know him no more forever more in that way . God is Spirit as the faithful Creator without form.
The first resurrection that was promised to the old testament saints began when their graves were opened all of those who had been in Abrahams bosom (the presence of God) as a temporal holding place until the demonstration (the veil was rent ). They arose to mansion Christ had ben preparing called the New Jerusalem (the bride of Christ the church ).
Ezekiel 37:13And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Up represents the resurrection/rapture or arose in the new testament fulfillment
Matthew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
This was the first resurrection and now that Christ has already finished the work of preparing the mansion with many room mant angel witnessed the event.
To be absent of the body is to participate in the first resurrection, the second resurrection will be on the last day. The day that those saints on earth will be risen with the saints that have left this realm under the Sin and together in the twinkling of the eye both will receive the promise of faith, our new incorruptible bodies.
On that same last day as the elements go up in smoke those who did not receive a new eternal Spirit of Christ, they will never rise to new .spirit life. When those who do not have the Spirit of Christ die their temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father of spirits and their lifeless spiritless bodies will return to the dust.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
People who cannot get oxygen cannot take in the breath needed to have life, they are not conscience of anything . They who have no spirit life cannot thirst for water without a tongue .
Its universal Alzheimer's for all flesh. When the believer is awoken by the call of Christ in the new heavens and earth the former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind .
Fortunately for those who remain on earth that we do not lose our memories of them. It is a act of God's mercy to give us good memories of those who have departed.
Proverbs 10:7 The memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot.
Now is the time we can offer our good works in respect to His name . He promises us he will not forget how we worked with Him who works in us to both will and do his good pleasure.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.Ecc.9:5-7
I would ask what would he be coming back to in respect to those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: It must be the new heavens and earth . The corruptible( first creation as rudiments of this world) does not inherit the incorruptible the second and final creation.
It is the end of time and not like in days of Noah a warning. Believers have received their new bodies which are neither male nor female Jew or Gentile as a new creation . The unbelievers have received the second death . They will not rise to new spirit life. This is all in the twinkling of the eye
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.Revelation 21: 22-25
It is the end of time and not like in days of Noah a warning. Believers have received their new bodies which are neither male nor female Jew or Gentile as a new creation . The unbelievers have received the second death . They will not rise to new spirit life. This is all in the twinkling of the eye
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.Revelation 21: 22-25