A place for rapture questions

[Wall]

Jeremiah 49:36 -

"36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."

[note these people are "scattered to the four winds," which is "into all nations"]

{note these people will also be gathered by the 4 winds} In the twinkling of an eye!

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Zeke 37 also speaks of a resurrection {1Cor.15?}. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

{note these people will also be gathered by the 4 winds} In the twinkling of an eye!

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Zeke 37 also speaks of a resurrection {1Cor.15?}. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel

Hello Wall,

The above is only partially correct. For when the Lord appears the dead will rise first, with the living believers being changed and caught up with them (rapture). After that you have the Male Child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne. Then in the middle of the seven years, the two witnesses will be killed by the beast who comes up out of the Abyss. And finally the great tribulation saints who will have died will be resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6.

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS

At the end of the seven years, after the wrath of God, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall to the earth. These are the signs just before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. It is important to discern between the event of the church being gathered vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two separate events. That said, the church cannot be gathered when the Lord returns to the earth because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

The "Great trumpet" of Matt.24:32, is not the same as the "Last Trumpet" of I Cor.15:52. The sounding of "Last Trumpet" will be the signal for the gathering of the church, where the sounding of the "great trumpet call" will be the signal for the angles to gather those who are still alive from the four corners of the earth. The gathering of the church and those that the angels gather, are two separate events. In addition, angels do not gather the church when the Lord appears. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead will rise first. After that, we who are still alive will be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up together with them. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, seven years later, then that "great trumpet" will sound signaling the angels to gather the living believers all over the earth who will still be in their mortal bodies.

The angels going throughout the earth takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and is not referring to the gathering of the church (rapture). Likewise, the gathering of the church where the dead are raised and the living are changed and caught up is not in view in Matt.24:32. Those who the angels will be gathering will be those who will have made it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign, alive. These are Gentiles who will go into the millennial period and repopulate the earth along with the survivors of Israel. The angels will be gathering living people from all over the entire earth which is what the phrase "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other," is signifying.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}.

Regarding the phrase "they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" consider the following:

"The LORD of Hosts musters an army for war. They are coming from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens—the LORD and the
weapons of His wrath—to destroy the whole country. - Isa.13:5

Regarding the scripture above, notice that it is referring to an earthly army and that because it states that "they are coming from faraway lands," which is referred to as coming from "the ends of the heavens." Therefore, the reference to "being gathered from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other," is referring to the angels gathering the survivors from all over the earth and is not referring to the church being caught up.

The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.

Your use of the words "flitting off to heaven" is just an attempt to discredit the truth and those who believe it and to exalt yourself. For the word of God does indeed reveal that the church will indeed be changed and caught up and taken back to the Father's house to those places that Jesus went to prepare for all believers according to His promise.

"Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house there are many mansions. And if not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, that where I am, you may be also." - John 14:1-3

So, the promise from the Lord is that, there are many mansions or dwelling places in His Father's house which could only be referring to heaven, that He went there to prepare a place for each believer and that He would come back again and receive us so that where the Lord is all believers may be also. The above is a promise from the Lord and is apart of His word and therefore must take place. I Thes.4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 are detailed accounts of the fulfillment of the Lord's promise to come back and get us.

I have no idea why you and others continue to claim that the Lord's coming to gather His church and to take us back to the Father's house (flitting off to heaven), as not being in scripture, when I just posted it above.

 

[Wall]

That said, the church cannot be gathered when the Lord returns to the earth because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

No need to fear Ahwatukee

PROVERBS 3 [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

Its obvious we are gonna be here for the desolation of the wicked. You do know when that takes place. Do not fear ole boy. The Lord is capable to protect you from being taken

 

[Wall]

I have no idea why you and others continue to claim that the Lord's coming to gather His church and to take us back to the Father's house (flitting off to heaven), as not being in scripture, when I just posted it above.

No. Theres nothing there about going to heaven. Fact is when He comes here Hes stayin here.

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

At the 1Cor15 event “death is swallowed up in victory”. I think everyone can agree this happens only once.

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

In above scripture "death is swallowed up in victory". Both scriptures, speaking of same event. But in Isaiah 25 you also find that at that time “God shall wipe away all tears”. This to will happen but once.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

No more tears. When? When death is swallowed up in victory {1Cor.15v54} and at the same time Jesus dwells with man in the new Jerusalem {the 1000yr period of rest}

Pretty simple

 

[Wall]

The "Great trumpet" of Matt.24:32, is not the same as the "Last Trumpet" of I Cor.15:52. The sounding of "Last Trumpet" will be the signal for the gathering of the church, where the sounding of the "great trumpet call" will be the signal for the angles to gather those who are still alive from the four corners of the earth. The gathering of the church and those that the angels gather, are two separate events. In addition, angels do not gather the church when the Lord appears. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead will rise first. After that, we who are still alive will be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up together with them. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, seven years later, then that "great trumpet" will sound signaling the angels to gather the living believers all over the earth who will still be in their mortal bodies.

So your saying the GREAT trumpet blows AFTER the LAST trumpet. Dont understand that. I figured the LAST trumpet would be the LAST trumpet.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So your saying the GREAT trumpet blows AFTER the LAST trumpet. Dont understand that. I figured the LAST trumpet would be the LAST trumpet.

Yes sir! The "Last trumpet" is the calling up of the church, where the "Great trumpet" found in Matt.24:31 is a signal to the angels to gather those who belong to the Lord and survive the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom.

We cannot pigeonhole words such as "trumpet, woman, star, thousand and the like." The context must bear out the meaning of the word. In this case, because the word "Trumpet" is used in both events, you are making them the same trumpet, which they are not. There are many different types of trumpets which signal different events. Just because the word trumpet is used in other parts of scripture, does not mean that it is speaking about the same event.

The "Last Trumpet" will be the last trumpet of that type, which is obviously a trumpet signaling the gathering of the church. The "great trumpet is sounded for the angels to gather the living at the end of the age, which is a different order of trumpet. We have to take into consideration all related scripture. As an example, since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the "last trumpet" which calls up the church cannot be the "great trumpet" which sounds when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, because that would put the living church through God's wrath and violate scripture. Another example would be that, the 7th trumpet judgment of Revelation is neither the same as the "last trumpet" nor the sounding of the "great trumpet." They completely different trumpet calls. To be clear, the "last trumpet" is not referring to the last of any type of trumpet, but last of that type or order. Do you understand?

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave asked

Could you show me Scriptures that teach what you are saying here, or is this just your opinion? i know there are Scriptures that teach we return to dust, but i don't know of any Scriptures whatsoever that teach that someone other than Jesus ONLY has ascended up to Heaven where the Father is. Oh, and please don't try to use the verse:

2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This is a perfect example of what you and others who resist the truth of God's word do. You discredit the scriptures that are presented and then you ask for proof. Regarding 2 Cor.5:6 the verse means exactly what it says, "to be absent from the body, i.e. our spirit, is to be in the presence of the Lord. It is also supported by what Paul said in Phil.1:22-24

Are you kidding me right now? You to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord, Scriptures does not say that any where at all, that is what you say, that is your opinion, NOT what Scriptures teach, then you say i am resisting the truth of God's word, because i do not believe your opinion, your interpretation of what a verse means.

i say, and willing rather to be absent from home, and present at McDonalds. Does that mean to you if i am absent from Home, that i AM at McDonalds. lol, you make me laugh out loud brother. You read that verse, and in your mind, in your interpretation it says to you, that if you are absent from the Body, then you are present with the Lord. lol, Then when someone tries to show you the error in your interpretation, you accuse them of resisting the truth of God's word. When of a Truth, i am resisting the word of Ahwatukee, which teaches when a person dies they are present with the Lord, something NO SCRIPTURE teaches, but what your false interpretations teaches you.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: TRUE
.. . .. . .. . . Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are alive in the body, we are not present with the Lord: TRUE

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. TRUE
. .. . . .. .. We are confiedent, i say, and willing RATHER to be absent from this body, this life, so we can be present with the Lord. TRUE

Ahwatukee says when we ARE absent from the body we ARE immediately present with the Lord, Which teaching is contrary to Scriptures and is not from God but from ahwatukee's own interpretations, his own opinions. lol. So intellegent, but then this.

Oh still waiting to hear from you, concerning how Zechariah chapter 14 fits into what you teach. lol.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

"But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

But if i go on livi9ng in this body, it will mean fruitful labor for me, DiscipleDave. So what shall i choose? i know not. i am torn between two. i desire to depart this life, so i can be with Christ, which far better indeed, but it is more needful for you that i remain in this life to teach you those things that God told me. This in no way, shape or form, indicates that if i die, i IMMEDIATELY go up to Heaven to be with Jesus. YOUR INTERPRETATION thinks that false thing.

Well, as I have told you many times, it is not my opinion, but God-Breathed.

You can say all you want it is not your opinion, does not make it so. i plainly ask you where in all of Scriptures does it teach that when a person dies, they immediately go to Heaven or to Hell. Then you present verses which you INTERPRET to mean that they do. NOT that the verses you present reveal that they do go to Heaven or to Hell upon death, but your interpretations is what you present as proof that they do. i ask you to show Scriptures that reveals when a person dies they immediately go to Heaven or to Hell, you give a verse that does not reveal that at all, but you give a verse that YOU interpret to mean that they do go to Heaven at the time of death, and then accuse me of resisting God's word. Who is resisting God's Word, when you do not believe what it says, but believe your interpretation over what it plainly says. "i would rather be away from Home, and be present at McDonalds. Does not mean. When i am absent from Home i am present at McDonalds. lol. This is something that you seem to not be able to understand. You believe because the Apostle Paul said, that he would rather be absent from the Body to be present with the Lord, means that when you die you ARE present with the Lord, something the Word of God does NOT say. So then who is adding and resisting the Word of God here?

In the scripture above, Paul he is torn between his spirit departing and being with the Lord vs. remaining in the body to be a benefit to the Philippians.

Yes i understand, i deal with this daily, i am so ready to depart this life and be with Jesus Christ, i am even now ready to die or be killed. i welcome death, and am more than ready to depart this life. So yes, i understand where the Apostle Paul is coming from all to well. i would RATHER depart this life and be with the Lord, as well. HOWEVER, just because i would rather depart this life and be with the Lord, does NOT mean when i die, i will immediately go to be with the Lord Jesus, that is a false doctrine from the Nicolaitans. Because Scriptures does not teach that.

His desire to be with Christ is inferring immediacy,

And so we see your opinion showing here, we wee your interpretation in action here. YOU are saying it is inferring immediacy, Scriptures does not reveal that, that is what YOU are inferring. Are you now going to deny that YOU are the one inferring that immediacy?

as there is nothing in the scripture that would suggest him going to sleep in the dust of the earth first before he goes to be with Christ.

Nothing? Really, there are no Scriptures that teach we sleep, really that is what you are going to say? How many times have you read the entire Bible not to know there are verses that plainly and clearly reveals we sleep.

1Co_11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

So we plainly see here, the Apostle Paul plainly teaching that when a person dies they SLEEP, he does not say go to Heaven, or go to Hell, does he? He plainly and clearly teaches they SLEEP.

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Again, yet another reference to those who believe that Jesus died and rose again, are SLEEPING IN JESUS. But i already remember how you skirt around that verse, to not believe what it says, you interpret their bodies to be sleeping, but their spirits are in Heaven with Jesus. You teach that their bodies, that are returning to dust and decaying with maggots, or cremated, are Sleeping. KNOW you not that the dead don't sleep, only that which is alive, sleeps. Simple science reveals that TRUTH. But you teach that their dead flesh, is what is sleeping, because you believe their spirits go to be with Jesus, that spirits do not sleep. Even though we see examples of spirits that do indeed sleep, when Saul arose the prophet to ask him questions. But because you are so unwilling to change your interpretations, you have to say that their dead bones decaying is what is actually sleeping, even though the dead do not sleep, only the living sleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

This is Paul again, saying the statement "We shall not all sleep" Which plainly means SOME are indeed sleeping. This verse is referring to a time when Jesus will appear, the Rapture, the dead in Christ, which are the spirits that are asleep will rise first to be with Jesus, then the living will rise afterwards. All of them changed, from their normal spirits to the Glorified Spiritual physical bodies. Know you not that flesh and blood will NEVER enter into Heaven:

1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Don't you teach that it is their bodies that are asleep, and that their bodies return to flesh and blood again, to inherit the Kingdom of God? Your interpretations make void the above Scriptures does it not? Will flesh and blood inherit the Kingdom of God, yes or no?

continued

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

For the believer, at the moment of death, the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.


NO Scripture teaches that false doctrine. YOU do. Just because Paul said "I would rather be absent from the Body, and be present with the Lord" Does not mean a the moment of death the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. YOU teach that, NOT Scriptures.


Tell me, when a wicked person dies, does that person also go immediately to be with Jesus in Heaven, even though they are destined to Hell fire? So then what you teach (NOT Scriptures) is that when a person dies, that is Judgment Day, that is the moment they are judged to go to Heaven or to go to hell, is that what you are saying. So you believe that when a person dies, they all go to Heaven, only to come back to the Earth on Judgment Day to be judged if they are going to Heaven or to hell? Tell me, is there more than ONE Jugdment Day? There are so many flaws in your intepretations of what you believe, i don't even know where to start.

Regarding the above, Jesus is the only One who came from heaven and then ascended back up into heaven (now pay attention to the following) in a resurrected body! Therefore, when a believer dies and their spirit departs to be in the presence of the Lord, that is not a resurrection.

lol, definition of resurrect:


To raise from the dead.


So when a person dies, and that person is raised from the dead as a spirit, that is not a resurrection, according to you? Really? They die, and then live again, that is not a resurrection? sigh. .. .

In fact those who depart and are in spirit with the Lord are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies,

Which is in clear contradiction of the Inspired by God verse that plainly teaches flesh and blood shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. But YOU teach that they do. So you believe when a person dies and go to Heaven and are in the best place in the universe, with Jesus Christ, they do not have any body? When we get to Heaven, we will most certainly have a body, it is a Spiritual body, which every bit made of flesh, but not from Earth, but from Heaven. So what then, do you think an Earthly body is better than a Spiritual body? Really you think that. After being in Heaven with a Spiritual Body, with Jesus, you think we are going to desire to have our old Earthly bodies back again, AFTER being in a Spiritual Body in Heaven. It is plain and clear that God has not revealed to you what a Glorified Body actually is. The Glorified body is a Spiritual body capable of becoming physical form of any kind. Know you not that we become as the Angels are? Angels even though they are not flesh from the Earth, but flesh from Heaven are still every bit human looking and in the flesh, and are still Angels. The Angels that went to destroy Sodom, Abram called men. They sat under the shade of a tree and ate food, but these Angels were not flesh from the Earth, they were not born or created from the Earth, they were born and created out of Heaven, they are spirits in their Glorified bodies, flesh NOT from Earth, but from Heaven itself. The Glorified bodies that we receive from God, are not from Earth. Our Earthly bodies will return to dust as Scriptures teaches and they will forever be dust. The Spirit that is in you and me, will receive our Glorified bodies, flesh from Heaven, NOT from the Earth.

just like we who are still alive are waiting for the blessed hope, when we will be changed into our immortal bodies and caught up. If you want an example of that, you only need to look at the 5th seal martyrs under the altar in heaven. Another example, which I'm sure that you have parablized, is the event of the rich man and Lazarus. We also have Jesus telling the man next to Him that "today you will be with me in paradise. However, you are probably one of those who claim that the comma is in the wrong place. You people go to a lot of lengths to discredit the truth of God's word. You don't think so now, but you find you soon enough.

Are you one of those people who won't answer questions presented to you. i have asked about Zech 14 many times and how it fits into what you teach, but no answer from you, because you don't see Scriptures that don't agree with your own interpretations. You see the parable of Lazarus and the rich man being an actual event, because that lines up with your interpretations of what you believe is TRUTH. even though there are many plain and clear reasons why it is not an actual event. Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, today you shall be with me in paradise" Tell me, or will this be another question you do not answer because it is contrary to YOUR TRUTH. When did Jesus go to Paradise? The day He died or three days later? Answer?


Is it not written by our Lord and Savior, that Jesus plainly testified that He would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights? Did He lie? Did He take the thief to paradise the day He was crucified or was He in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights? When Jesus after being risen the Third day, said "Touch me not, for i have not yet ascended to my Father" Did He lie? Did Jesus take the thief on the cross to Heaven the very same day He was crucified or not? You do error not understanding Scriptures. God reveals to whom God reveals.

No, but that is not the point that Paul was making. Paul is stating that to be absent from the body is to be in the Lord's presence in spirit.

lol, that is what you teach. The Apostle Paul plainly and clearly said that he would RATHER be absent from the body to be present with the Lord. YOU teach that if you are are absent from the Body you ARE present with the Lord.


i would rather be absent from home and present at McDonalds.


YOU interpret that to mean, if i am absent from Home that i am present at McDonalds.


2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


You interpret that to mean, if we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord.


NO difference between your method of interpretation, which is clearly not accurate.


And even though i have plainly and clearly showed you the error of your interpretation, that even children could understand the flaw of it, will you believe it, or continue to hold to the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans?

I guarantee you that from the time Paul died, as well as all of the other believers who have died since then and up to this very day, their spirits have entered into heaven where they await the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies, where they are conscious and aware. Eccl.9:5 dose not say what you think it says.

You gained this knowledge how? OH, through your OWN studies and interpretations, i see.


i guarantee you that the Apostle Paul's flesh body has returned to dust, and his spirit is sleeping until Jesus Christ gets here, when Jesus Gets here, it is Judgement Day, that very day that determines who will and who will not go to Heaven, The very day that determines who is and who is NOT SAVED. If the Apostle Paul's name if found in the Book of Life, then the Spiritual Body of the Apostle Paul will rise from the dead where it sleeps, And that Spiritual Body will then acquire Flesh that is from Heaven, a Glorified Body that comes from Heaven, NOT from the Earth. To the Apostle Paul it will seem that only moments after his death Jesus is here to get him, even though 2,000 years has passed on Earth, to the Apostle Paul it was only moments after his death, because sleep knows no time. So then in the mind of the Apostle Paul, he dies, sleeps, then Christ is there to get him, to him is was as if he died and immediately Christ was there, because he was asleep during that 2,000 years.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Nehemiah6]

So your saying the GREAT trumpet blows AFTER the LAST trumpet. Dont understand that. I figured the LAST trumpet would be the LAST trumpet.

Not necessarily. There is a final trumpet for the saved (the Church) and an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT final trumpet for God's judgments on the unsaved and the ungodly.

Just as there is a Heaven for the saved and a Hell for the lost.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I would ask what would he be coming back to in respect to those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: It must be the new heavens and earth . The corruptible( first creation as rudiments of this world) does not inherit the incorruptible the second and final creation.

New Heaven and New Earth are created during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period, The destroying of the Earth and atmosphere for 3 1/2 years, is what is creating the New Earth and New Heaven, and is what is considered Great Tribulation for humans on the planet that is being transformed. Great Tribulations is the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year Tribulation period. 7 Trumpets are blown. Jesus Returns to the Earth at the 7th Trumpet else all humans on the planet would cease to exist. After Jesus gets here on Earth at the 7th Trumpet sounding, the last trump of God, Jesus will begin to set up His Kingdom ON EARTH to reign over all the nations of the World. AFTER Jesus gets here, 7 vials/bowels will then begin to pour out upon the Earth, this is the method that God will use to wipe the remainder of those who were not taken up with Him in the Rapture off the face of the Earth. When the 7th vial is poured out, there will remain no wicked person on the Earth. satan is then bound for a thousand years, to tempt NOBODY. The 1,000 year reign of Jesus and us Saints will begin on the Earth over the 144,000 sealed by God and protected through the whole Tribulation Period. We Saints will teach them how to plant, build, or whatever else they will need to know. They will not know what sin is, nor will doing something wrong or wicked even come to their minds. The Earth during the 1,000 years will be that like unto the Garden of Eden from the beginning of the creation of the Earth, except the Garden will cover the entire Earth, not merely a part of it as in the beginning. After the thousand years are up, satan will be released, and there will be one huge battle for the Holy City. After the Battle, will be the Great White Throne Judgment and satan and all his army will be cast into Hell, never to return again.

All this above is what God told me. NOTHING i say above is contrary to even one verse in all of Scriptures.

It is the end of time and not like in days of Noah a warning. Believers have received their new bodies which are neither male nor female Jew or Gentile as a new creation .

This is True, We do not return into our Earthly bodies to be either male or female, or Jew or Greek. But in Truth we return to the Glorified bodies that we use to have in Heaven prior to the Earth ever being created. The Spirit that is in you, has it's own name from the moment Jesus Gave that name to you, when He created your spirit in Heaven. The spirit that is in you now, use to be in Heaven along with Lucifer and all the Hosts of Heaven. The flesh you have now, is from the Earth, it is as filthy rags, inferior to that of flesh that is from Heaven. The spirit that is in your flesh came from God, when it use to be in Heaven, but now is in you, trapped in the flesh that comes from the Earth, you, that spirit that is within you, is here on Earth to be Tested to see who you will freely choose to follow, either the ways of satan or the ways of God, to either Love One Another, or love self. We are all here to be TESTED. please read "Meaning of Life" to see what God has told me.

The unbelievers have received the second death . They will not rise to new spirit life. This is all in the twinkling of the eye

The Twinkling of eye, happens on the Day of the Lord, the Rapture. at the 7th Trumpet sounding. ON that day those who have died in Christ who are sleeping, will rise first, their Spirit will rise, not their decaying corruption Earth flesh. Then the TRUE living Christians will be Raptured up, with our fleshly bodies laying on the ground like a corpse, because earthly flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. So the spirit that is in us, will leave this mortal, earthly body, and get it's New body, flesh that comes from Heaven and not from the Earth. The wicked, the unbelievers, the unsaved will see Him in the sky, but will be uneffected, they will remain, not taken up to Jesus, these will perish though, via the 7 vials that will start to be poured out upon the Earth after the Day of the Lord, After the 7th Trumpet sounds.

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.Revelation 21: 22-25

The Holy City Jerusalem is a massive city that comes out of Heaven and lands over where Jerusalem is today, it will have four mountains that it will rest upon, with a great valley underneith the Holy City. Please read Zech 14 to see this being revealed by the Prophet of old.



^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Yes sir! The "Last trumpet" is the calling up of the church, where the "Great trumpet" found in Matt.24:31 is a signal to the angels to gather those who belong to the Lord and survive the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom.

We cannot pigeonhole words such as "trumpet, woman, star, thousand and the like." The context must bear out the meaning of the word. In this case, because the word "Trumpet" is used in both events, you are making them the same trumpet, which they are not.

You are saying that they are not the same event, based on what Scriptures? Or is it, yet again, your opinion, that they are not the same event? Or do you have Scriptures that reveal they are NOT the same event. i hear you saying they are not the same event, but i see no Scriptures that says they are not. Tell me, are you saying, It is impossible for them to be the same event, and if that is what you are saying, then what Scriptures led you to believe they are NOT the same event? Thanks.

There are many different types of trumpets which signal different events. Just because the word trumpet is used in other parts of scripture, does not mean that it is speaking about the same event.

True, however plainly stating that it is at the "Last" Trump, plainly and clearly indicates that it is the last of a SERIES of trumpets, yes or no?

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here is what this verse reveals, plainly and clearly. The last trumpet is in a series of trumpets. The dead are raised when this last trumpet is sounded, and we (Saints) are changed. This is TRUE, and is what the above verse plainly says and teaches.

Now where in Scriptures is there a Series of Trumpets mentioned? Well Revelation lists a series of Trumpets, 7 of them. So let us go to the Description of the last Trumpet sounding, and see if it lines up with 1Cor 15:52, dead raised, and we are Changed.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; . .. .. . . 16 .. . . . . .. 17 . .. . .. . . . Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So then according to this Inspired by God verse, at the 7th Trumpet it is time for the dead to be Judged, What? To determine who will rise and who will not rise? Yes! Also this verse says at the 7th Trumpet the Saints are get a reward, Tell me, is getting a Glorified body a reward or not? Yes it is.

i believe even children could see how the Last Trump of I Cor 15:52 is a direct comparison to that of Rev 11:15. But leave it to the Learned to think they know something, when they know nothing at all.

The "Last Trumpet" will be the last trumpet of that type, which is obviously a trumpet signaling the gathering of the church.

Oh, so your saying it is not possible that it could be a last Trumpet of a series of Trumpets, how conveinent for you isn't it, believe that so you don't have to change what you believe is the TRUTH, based on your own opinions and your own studies, and your own interpretations. How about you merely believe what the Scriptures says, and leave your own interpretations out of it. Interpretations belong to God, not to men. Woe to those who go about to interpret the Word of God, as if they had the authority to do so, they will not escape His wrath. You would be better off to teach what the Word of God actually says, and NOT what you think it means.

The "great trumpet is sounded for the angels to gather the living at the end of the age, which is a different order of trumpet.

A different order of tumpet. You don't say? Please enlighten all of us, on some of the other trumpet and what they mean, thanks.

We have to take into consideration all related scripture.

Great advise here. Also some more advise, don't listen to any person who offers up their own interpretations of the Word of God, believe what the Scriptures say and teach, NOT what men say it means.

As an example, since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath,

Here is an example. Believe Scriptures NOT what people teach. Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, UNLESS they put their hands to wickedness. We reap what we sow. If you do wrong you will be punished for the wrong that you did. God punishes those that He loves. So don't take that out of context and believe that no believer will suffer any of God's wrath, because that simply is NOT Scriptural. We Christians are not appointed to suffer God's wrath UNLESS we put our hands to wickedness, then we freely choose to be punished by Him who loves us.

As an example, since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the "last trumpet" which calls up the church cannot be the "great trumpet" which sounds when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, because that would put the living church through God's wrath and violate scripture.

Really? Which Scripture is that? Is it to hard for you to quote the very Scriptures that you are referring to? Or is that because there isn't any Scriptures that backs up what you are saying. Can you show any verse that teaches the living Church does not go through any of God's wrath? you can't, because there is not one verse that teaches that, buy you do, don't you? When the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt, when the Wrath of God came upon the Egyptians, were they present during the Wrath of God? yes or no. But for some reason it is in your head, that the living Church is GONE during the Wrath of God, something NO Scriptures teaches or even suggests that, but solely something that you believe. As i have asked you before and get no answers from you, ARE you saying it is impossible for the Living Church to be here during the Wrath of God? Impossible, really? The Israelites were present during the whole Wrath of God, and they were not appointed to any of that wrath, But you think because we are not appointed for God Wrath, that means (TO YOU) that the Living Church is GONE before the Wrath of God comes upon the whole Earth. You do error not understanding the things of God.

Another example would be that, the 7th trumpet judgment of Revelation is neither the same as the "last trumpet" nor the sounding of the "great trumpet." They completely different trumpet calls.

Yes, we hear your opinions loud and clear, that is what you believe. But as i keep saying over and over again, that is NOT what Scriptures teach.

To be clear, the "last trumpet" is not referring to the last of any type of trumpet, but last of that type or order. Do you understand?

You believe as you do, relying on your own intellect, i will continue to believe what God told me, which has nothing to do with my mind or my own intellect. What God told me is from God, not from the minds of men. What you teach is from the mind of yourself, correct? You teach things that are contrary to sound doctrine. and it is evident you do that.


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††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Not necessarily. There is a final trumpet for the saved (the Church)

Yes the final Trumpet is the last Trumpet sounding in Revelation. The 7th Trumpet, when the dead are judged, and the living Saints are changed and rewarded.

and an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT final trumpet for God's judgments on the unsaved and the ungodly.

What verse teaches that? lol. i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, i have never read one time a final Trumpet sounding for the Unsaved and the ungodly. What Scripture are you referring to here, or is this merely an opinion of yours?

People wake up, a LAST trumpet, means there are no other Trumpets afterwards, it is the LAST Trumpet sounding. There is NO Last Trumpet then a final Trumpet, likewise there is NO final Trumpet then a last Trumpet. Really, amazes me how blind this generation actually is.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Nehemiah6]

What verse teaches that? lol. i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, i have never read one time a final Trumpet sounding for the Unsaved and the ungodly.

SEVENTH ANGEL ----> SEVEN LAST PLAGUES -----> WRATH OF GOD

REVELATION 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev 11:15).

REVELATION 15
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God....
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

So is the wrath of God reserved for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked, or not?

And can this trumpet have anything at all to do with the redeemed of the Lord who have been saved from wrath?

 

[Wall]

People wake up, a LAST trumpet, means there are no other Trumpets afterwards, it is the LAST Trumpet sounding. There is NO Last Trumpet then a final Trumpet, likewise there is NO final Trumpet then a last Trumpet. Really, amazes me how blind this generation actually is.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Only the Rapturist believe the "LAST" trumpet is not really the "LAST" trumpet. Its the only way Darbys rapture can be explained

 

[Ahwatukee]

Only the Rapturist believe the "LAST" trumpet is not really the "LAST" trumpet. Its the only way Darbys rapture can be explained

Greetings Wall,

As I said previously, there many different types or orders of trumpets. In this case, the "last trumpet" is not same order or type of trumpet mentioned in Matt.24:31. That trumpet is a "lout trumpet" which signals the angels to gather the elect from all over the earth. To be clear, the trumpet of Matt.24:31 is not the gathering of the church, but is a signal for the angels to gather the living elect, those who will have made it through God's wrath of that last seven years. Below is the scripture:

"And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matt.24:31

In addition, at the resurrection angels do not gather the church, for they will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and raised in power. In one scripture Jesus said that at the resurrect we will become like the angels in heaven.

The reference to "the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" us a phrase meaning that the angels will gather the elect from every corner of the earth. Below is another example of this phrase use:

"They are coming from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens—the LORD and the weapons of His wrath—to destroy the whole country." - Isa.13:5

So, the reference in the scripture above to "the ends of the heavens" is figurative for "coming from faraway lands." It is the same with Matt.24:31, the loud trumpet is signaling the angels to gather the elect from "the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" which again is referring to them gathering the elect from every corner of the earth. It is not referring to the gathering of the church (rapture).

In conclusion the "last trumpet" of that type or order of trumpet, will surely be last. But just because the word trumpet is used elsewhere does not mean that it is talking about the last trumpet of I Cor.15:52. What you and others are doing is making those two trumpets as being the same in order to support your interpretation.

It is the same with the trumpet judgments. None of those trumpets are either the same as the "Last trumpet" of I Cor.15:52, nor the "Loud Trumpet" of Matt.24:31, but are all different trumpets.

By the way, it is not Darby's rapture. The gathering of the church is taught in the word of God. And the gathering of the church will take place prior to God's wrath being poured out, which is initiated by the 1st being opened.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So your saying the GREAT trumpet blows AFTER the LAST trumpet. Dont understand that. I figured the LAST trumpet would be the LAST trumpet.

I could see your point if there was only one kind of trumpet used in scripture. This is where you and others are confused, for there are many different types of trumpets with different purposes and that is what you are not taking into consideration. The "last trumpet" of that type of trumpet, will indeed be the last one, but don't apply that to every trumpet in scripture. The "last trumpet" (of that type) sounds prior to God's wrath, where the "loud trumpet" (which is a different type of trumpet) sounds as the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time He sends His angels to gather the elect. The cannot and will not be put through the wrath of God, which you are ignoring in order to fit your interpretation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Only the Rapturist believe the "LAST" trumpet is not really the "LAST" trumpet. Its the only way Darbys rapture can be explained

"Darby's Rapture" -- that is hilarious!

As already explained there is one last trumpet for the saints and A DIFFERENT last trumpet for the ungodly.

 

[Hevosmies]

People wake up, a LAST trumpet, means there are no other Trumpets afterwards, it is the LAST Trumpet sounding. There is NO Last Trumpet then a final Trumpet, likewise there is NO final Trumpet then a last Trumpet. Really, amazes me how blind this generation actually is.

Hello Dave. This was the interpretation I also got as I read through the Bible. I'm not saying its not a viable interpretation, but did you consider that when Paul wrote about the last trumpet to the Corinthians, that the book of Revelation had not been written yet? The corinthians would have never connected it to that trumpet, since it wasnt known about yet at that time.

 

[Hevosmies]

I got a question for post-trib rapture believers:

In light of verses like 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 and including all the trumpets vials and seals, WHO is left to populate the millennium?

I also have a question for pre-trib rapture believers:

How do you explain the fact that the FIRST resurrection is in Revelation 20, after the second coming in Rev 19?