Can anyone help me understand these verses?
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Okay, good. I was expecting this to be your response. Let's look at the passage again:
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13
You're saying that being denied by Christ simply means still being saved but not reigning with Him as a kind of punishment, a loss of reward, for denying Him. So you're saying he does deny you when you deny him but it just means something else, not you losing your salvation.
So now all of a sudden He CAN deny Himself even though vs. 13 says he can't. But when I say being denied by Christ for denying Him is in regard to salvation you use vs. 13 to claim he cannot deny you.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13
You're saying that being denied by Christ simply means still being saved but not reigning with Him as a kind of punishment, a loss of reward, for denying Him. So you're saying he does deny you when you deny him but it just means something else, not you losing your salvation.
So now all of a sudden He CAN deny Himself even though vs. 13 says he can't. But when I say being denied by Christ for denying Him is in regard to salvation you use vs. 13 to claim he cannot deny you.
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R
You say a person CAN go back to the sinning life of unbelief and they are still saved. You need to wake up. That's making grace a license to sin. Paul did not preach that gospel. Condemnation is deserved for those who said Paul's gospel was a 'do evil that good may result?' gospel because he didn't teach that gospel. But the accusation is quite fitting for your's. You do say you can do evil and good will result (that 'where sin abounds grace abounds all the more' thing) because you can not lose your salvation even if you go back to the sinning life of unbelief.
By the way, I still want to know your take on 1 John 2:19 which used to mean in 'once saved always saved' that if you left you were never really saved to begin with. But I guess it doesn't mean that now because so many people in 'once saved always saved' circles are saying you don't lose your salvation when you believe and are saved but then fall away into unbelief and that you were saved before you fell away and remain saved while in unbelief. So I'm curious what you do with 1 John 2:19 since you have the testimony of believing, then falling away, then coming back and saying you were saved all the while because you can never lose your salvation no matter what happens.
By the way, I still want to know your take on 1 John 2:19 which used to mean in 'once saved always saved' that if you left you were never really saved to begin with. But I guess it doesn't mean that now because so many people in 'once saved always saved' circles are saying you don't lose your salvation when you believe and are saved but then fall away into unbelief and that you were saved before you fell away and remain saved while in unbelief. So I'm curious what you do with 1 John 2:19 since you have the testimony of believing, then falling away, then coming back and saying you were saved all the while because you can never lose your salvation no matter what happens.
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Final Exhortations 2Peter 3:15-17
…15Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.…
…15Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.…
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R
Sure. It means I have no religious affiliation other than being on the Protestant side of the great divide between Catholicism and Protestantism.
I don't think there is a denomination whose official doctrine addresses all the issues and addresses them 100% accurately. So my doctrinal construct is composed of the doctrines that line up with the Bible, not just the ones crammed into a single denomination's statement of faith.
I don't think there is a denomination whose official doctrine addresses all the issues and addresses them 100% accurately. So my doctrinal construct is composed of the doctrines that line up with the Bible, not just the ones crammed into a single denomination's statement of faith.
R
Boooo!
I had a legitimate comeback to your.....your.....doctrine and you didn't like that I showed you to be wrong and so now I'm a deceiver. I've done a lot of witnessing and so I'm very familiar with the fact that this is how unbelievers react to the truth.
Don't call me deceptive just because I showed your interpretation of 'denied' to be in contradiction to what the passage says.
You don't handle it very well when you get your doctrinal butt handed to you.
I had a legitimate comeback to your.....your.....doctrine and you didn't like that I showed you to be wrong and so now I'm a deceiver. I've done a lot of witnessing and so I'm very familiar with the fact that this is how unbelievers react to the truth.
Don't call me deceptive just because I showed your interpretation of 'denied' to be in contradiction to what the passage says.
You don't handle it very well when you get your doctrinal butt handed to you.
R
@UnderGrace , @dcontroversal ,
"6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end."-Hebrews 3:6
How is a person still the house of Christ if they don't hold fast their confidence and hope until the end? The author is making it very clear that being the house of Christ is conditional on holding fast your confidence to the very end. But you say there are no conditions at all or that would be works.
"6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end."-Hebrews 3:6
How is a person still the house of Christ if they don't hold fast their confidence and hope until the end? The author is making it very clear that being the house of Christ is conditional on holding fast your confidence to the very end. But you say there are no conditions at all or that would be works.
U
You "hold fast" Ralphie, but if you think you are "holding fast" to your salvation you hold fast in vain God already has that covered.
Like it was written to the Hebrews move on to the meat,
However, how can one move onto the meat when one hasn't received and understood the milk of God's word.
You bind yourself sadly whether in earnest or from falsity hard to say but I pray others are more discerning.
Like it was written to the Hebrews move on to the meat,
However, how can one move onto the meat when one hasn't received and understood the milk of God's word.
You bind yourself sadly whether in earnest or from falsity hard to say but I pray others are more discerning.
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@UnderGrace[/USER]
"6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end."-Hebrews 3:6
Don't you realize that you are literally saying this verse is not true? You're saying I DON'T have to hold fast my confidence in the hope of the Gospel to be the house of Christ.[/QUOTE]
"6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end."-Hebrews 3:6
Don't you realize that you are literally saying this verse is not true? You're saying I DON'T have to hold fast my confidence in the hope of the Gospel to be the house of Christ.[/QUOTE]