Can anyone help me understand these verses?

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U

UnderGrace

Guest
You are so wrong.

Read these:

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God "-2 John 1:9

"12 ...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life (eternal life-see vs.11)."-1 John 5:12

See it? If you don't continue in the word of Christ you do not have God. If you do not have God you do not have eternal life. Please don't tell us this really doesn't mean what it says.
Okay so you have demonstrated that you are not really interested in really examining that verse, I thought we could start in a very narrow fashion and see where we agreed and parted ways. I am no longer interested in this feud it has run its course with me.

There really is no point I think and I was actually agreeing with you as we were getting started.

Just as well I have a garden to tend to.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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@Ralph-

You can let me know when you actually want to look at this verse I am not wanting to get into a debate with you I want to discuss what Paul is saying in context of the historical Corinthian church.

I personally do not believe he is addressing false believers when he discusses "believing in vain"
Correct. He's not.

It is only where he states, "how say some among you that there is no resurrection from the dead?" 1Cor15:12b that he is addressing the fact that this thought was present in the realm of those he was addressing AS A GROUP (i.e. consider that "the Church which is His body" consists ONLY of believers/the saved; however, "churchES" sometimes have unbelievers/unsaved amongst them [the churchES of Rev2-3, for example, or 1Cor14:23-24])
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Correct. He's not.

It is only where he states, "how say some among you that there is no resurrection from the dead?" 1Cor15:12b that he is addressing the fact that this thought was present in the realm of those he was addressing AS A GROUP (i.e. consider that "the Church which is His body" consists ONLY of believers/the saved; however, "churchES" sometimes have unbelievers/unsaved amongst them [the churchES of Rev2-3, for example, or 1Cor14:23-24])
I disagree, they were saved but were being influenced by doubters outside of the church.

They had not lost their salvation, they were doubting and Paul is absolutely trying to reassure them that the Resurrection did indeed happen. Everything Paul is saying to keep up what they learned from him. "The gospel which I preached (past tense) to you"

As well, one must remember that we are so used hearing about the Resurrection, it is has been part of our history for centuries, one has to see it from the Corinthian gentile mindset where this is a very, very big thing to believe, they did believe and were saved but now they are doubting.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I disagree, they were saved but were being influenced by doubters outside of the church.

They had not lost their salvation, they were doubting and Paul is absolutely trying to reassure them that the Resurrection did indeed happen. Everything Paul is saying to keep up what they learned from him. "The gospel which I preached (past tense) to you"

As well, one must remember that we are so used hearing about the Resurrection, it is has been part of our history for centuries, one has to see it from the Corinthian gentile mindset where this is a very, very big thing to believe, they did believe and were saved but now they are doubting.
Well this is kind of what I meant where I had said "he is addressing the fact that this thought was present in the realm of those he was addressing AS A GROUP" ("this thought," meaning, "how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead"); whether that means some were being externally influenced (by those outside the church, not present ever) or whether those unbelievers themselves were present in their midst at times (as an example I supplied 1Cor14:23-24, showing that sometimes unbelievers were indeed present in their midst).

Our views are very close. I am not in disagreement with you, really. :) The original "source" of such a thought is those (unbelievers) who don't believe in a resurrection of the dead, and that source is affecting these saved-believers. Yes. Agreed. (y)


I definitely DO NOT believe Paul is making any point whatsoever about the "possibility" of one losing/forfeiting salvation.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Well this is kind of what I meant where I had said "he is addressing the fact that this thought was present in the realm of those he was addressing AS A GROUP" ("this thought," meaning, "how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead"); whether that means some were being externally influenced (by those outside the church, not present ever) or whether those unbelievers themselves were present in their midst at times (as an example I supplied 1Cor14:23-24, showing that sometimes unbelievers were indeed present in their midst).

Our views are very close. I am not in disagreement with you, really. :) The original "source" of such a thought is those (unbelievers) who don't believe in a resurrection of the dead, and that source is affecting these saved-believers. Yes. Agreed. (y)

Paul is making an impassioned plea, saying the Resurrection has to have happened in order for our faith to be true.

If it did not happen then our faith is in vain.

He is arguing for the reality of the resurrection, not saying that some believed in vain and therefore not true believers, that does not make sense in context when he writes he calls them brethren.

They had "received" and "believed" the gospel that he had preached to them (the past tenses denote completed action) and they now "stand" in that gospel (the perfect tense denotes past action with continuing results). Their stand refers to their positional justification, which is unquestioned and was affirmed earlier: "you were justified" 1 Cor 6:11

So then why is he telling them to "hold fast" to the gospel, for salvation....No no no

We do not hold onto salvation that is a gift

We are encouraged to hold fast to that which we have believed and stand in (again perfect tense, past action with continuing results).
The verb for "hold fast" (katecho) is used in the New Testament in relation to the Christian's sanctification experience (see Hebrews 10:23)

Sanctification and a victorious walk absolutely demands we hold fast, the deeper we believe and hold fast the stronger walk we have in Jesus. Our salvation however is always assured. :)

Amen Divine Watermark I am so glad you see it too!!!
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God "-2 John 1:9

"12 ...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life (eternal life-see vs.11)."-1 John 5:12
UG, show me that John doesn't really mean that if you don't abide (continue) in Christ then you don't have God the Father (and the Son) and because you don't have the Son you don't have eternal life. How do you make those verses not really mean that in your belief system? I'm listening.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
UG, show me that John doesn't really mean that if you don't abide (continue) in Christ then you don't have God the Father (and the Son) and because you don't have the Son you don't have eternal life. How do you make those verses not really mean that in your belief system? I'm listening.
Would you agree that in 2 John 1:9, that the reference is to people with doctrinal error not moral defection since the context of John is false teachers?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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UG, show me that John doesn't really mean that if you don't abide (continue) in Christ then you don't have God the Father (and the Son) and because you don't have the Son you don't have eternal life. How do you make those verses not really mean that in your belief system? I'm listening.
1 John 2:18-27 is addressed to the "little children," but note that it says "the anointing which ye have received abideth in you"...

Check out how Arno Gaebelein explains this section:

"III. TRUTH AND ERROR
CHAPTER 2:18-27"


https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_john/2.htm


I agree with his explanation of this passage. John is not warning of "loss/forfeiture of salvation".

[note verse 28's "that we may have confidence" when He shall appear, and "not be ashamed before Him at His coming"--two responses possible for BELIEVERS/SAVED persons]
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Paul rightly says of these accusers of brothers and sisters in Christ that preach Grace is a free gift of God, and that we say sinning is ok,
THEIR CONDEMNATION IS JUST!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You major in not rightly dividing the word of God. Look at the part you're ignoring:

"12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;


13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."-1 Timothy 2:12-13

This will probably go right over your head, but let's try it anyway. Notice, there has to be difference between denying Christ and being faithless. How do we know that? The outcome of each is different. You can be faithless and he will not deny you. But if you deny him he will deny you.

What that means is you can be faithless and still believe in Christ. All Christians do that. We all sin in unfaithfulness to the Lord but we believe and trust in Christ for forgiveness for that sin. What we can't do is stop believing in Christ for forgiveness. That's called denying him. He will deny you if you do that.
It went right over you head pal...

Not enduring = not reigning with him does not equal losing salvation
If we deny him is directed at ALL who deny the saving faith of Christ not the saved
HE abides faithful to HIS WORD, HIS PROMISES, HIS POWER and the eternal GIFT of salvation even if we are faithless

You, just like your buddy who is no longer with us push a JESUS that is no where in scripture.....a psuedo/Catholic/false JESUS that is too weak or inept to keep his word....just admit it.....your gospel is no where to be found in the bible.....
 
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Back to my question, dcon:

According to this passage, if you are no longer holding fast the word of the risen savior, the gospel, are you saved?

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."-1 Corinthians 15:1-2
We already covered this, so have numerous people.....obviously your weak, inept Jesus that does not keep his word keeps you from seeing obvious truth....
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Would you agree that in 2 John 1:9, that the reference is to people with doctrinal error not moral defection since the context of John is false teachers?
So no thought on this then, hmm why?
 
Aug 8, 2018
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Salvation is not a prize it is a gift.

And do not criticize John Calvin until you have at least read his work.
John Calvin produced nothing but hay. Salvation is a gift and therefore a prize you should fight to keep, THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL WITHOUT OMITTING IMPORTANT LESSONS OF IT. Hay is burnt up like John Calvin. How do I know that, his works have been tested here through his followers you and others and cannot stand in the face of truth THE WORD.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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In my post #229, I forgot to mention openly of the important detail, that in the passage of 1Jn2:18-27, the word for "little children" is "G3813 - Paidia," whereas in verses 28 and 1, the word for "little children" is "G5040 - Teknia". So verses 18-27 are addressed particularly to "the babes" (the point of posting that article).


I like also what William Kelly says, here (about "the babes"):

"But, as we have expressed it, "the little children" were characterised by an advance on that which was the common portion of all Christians. The very speciality that they began with was the knowledge of the Father. They were His children. It was not merely that they knew (or had known) God as Creator; or as the Almighty God that cares for poor pilgrims, or Jehovah God as the Governor; but they knew Him as the Father. The risen Lord Jesus had made Him known as His Father and theirs. They knew that He was their Father and their God, as truly as His Father and His God. And they had it on His own word, as well as in the power of the Holy Ghost sent into their hearts, crying, Abba, Father. How can Christians overlook a truth so nearly concerning them, which runs through the greater part of the New Testament? It is distinctive of Christianity. Through Christ all the evil gone is judged in His cross; and unworthy as a Christian may be, he is from that early moment of faith in the gospel given to know Him as His Father. Even the babes knew that this is no temporary blessing, such as the law held out on obedience to Israel. In the gospel God gives to faith an abiding gift. This is what the law could not do. The law is conditional: "If you obey the law of God, you shall live, and not die." But the gospel is not that if I love God He will be faithful to me (on which ground no sinner could be saved); but that "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth on Him should not perish but have eternal life." "

[bold/underline mine]
 

Jewel5712

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Jun 22, 2018
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One of the key things in this passage is "fall away" this to me shows not a sin, a bad day, some rebellion but a complete rejection of Yahshua and His path. To this there is no recourse back to Yah according to this passage, but again this is not a sin, a bad day, some rebellion but a complete rejection of Yahshua and His path. Yah will guide us, chasten us, humble us, etc. People live in a fake church world where "God" is all fuzzy and everything is "rainbows and unicorns" look at the world that is not reailty, Yah can at times bring us low that we may hold unto Him as our strength in our weakness...

Hebrews 6:1-11,1 Therefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Messiah, let us go on to perfection,a not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of belief toward Elohim, Mat 5:48."2 of the teaching of immersions, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of everlasting judgment."3 And this we shall do, if Elohim indeed permits."4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Set-apart Spirit,"5 and have tasted the good Word of Elohim and the powers of the age to come,"6 and fall away, to renew them again to repentance – having impaled for themselves the Son of Elohim again, and put Him to open shame. Heb 10:26-31."7 For ground that is drinking the rain often falling on it, and is bearing plants fit for those by whom it is tilled, receives blessing from Elohim,"8 but if it brings forth thorns and thistles, Gen 3:18 it is rejected and near to being cursed, and ends up by being burned."9 But although we speak in this way, beloved, we are persuaded, concerning you, of better matters which possess deliverance."10 For Elohim is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love which you have shown toward His Name, in that you have attended to the set-apart ones, and still attend."11 And we desire that each one of you show the same eagerness, to the entire confirmation of expectation until the end,"

Ezekiel 18:20-32, “The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself. But the wrong, if he turns from all his sins which he has done, and he shall guard all My laws, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. All the transgressions which he has done shall not be remembered against him – in his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wrong?” declares the Master יהוה. “Is it not that he should turn from his ways, and live? But when a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and does unrighteousness, according to all the abominations that the wrong one has done, shall he live? All his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered. For his trespass which he has committed, and for his sin which he has committed, for them he shall die. And you said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Yisra’yl, is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness, and does unrighteousness, and he dies in it, it is because of his unrighteousness which he has done that he dies. And when the wrong turns away from the wrong which he has done, and he does right-ruling and righteousness, he keeps himself alive. Because he sees and turns away from all the transgressions which he has done, he shall certainly live, he shall not die. And the house of Yisra’yl have said, ‘The way of יהוה is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Yisra’yl? Is it not your ways that are not right? Therefore I judge you, O house of Yisra’yl, every one according to his ways,” declares the Master יהוה. “Repent, and turn back from all your transgressions, and let not crookedness be a stumbling-block to you. Cast away from you all the transgressions, by which you have transgressed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Yisra’yl? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” declares the Master יהוה. “So turn back and live!”

Contrast "fall away" with turn to or away from Yah as shown above.

Messiah seemed to think salvation and being saved is at the end, niot the moment we say words with our mouth...

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised.”

1 Peter 1:3-9, “Blessed be the Strength and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah, who according to His great compassion has caused us to be born again to a living expectation through the resurrection of יהושע Messiah from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in the heavens for you, who are protected by the power of Yah through belief, for a deliverance ready to be revealed in the last time, in which you exult, even though for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by manifold trials, in order that the proving of your belief – much more precious than gold that perishes, and proven by fire – might be found to result in praise and respect and esteem at the revelation of יהושע Messiah, whom having not seen, you love; in whom you exult with unspeakable and esteemed joy, yet not seeing, but believing, obtaining the goal of your belief: a deliverance of lives.”

We have not yet received it, we are on His path...

Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”

Revelation 3:12, "He who overcomes, I will make a pillar in The House of My Father, and he will never go out of it. And I will write upon him the Name of My Father, and the Name of the New Yerusalem which comes down out of heaven from My Father, newly named."

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

THis is salvation:

Luke 21:28, “Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Mat:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

Ezekiyl 48:35, "“All around: eighteen thousand cubits. And the name of the city from that day is: יהוה is there!” (In Hebrew: יהוה Shammah)

Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father. And YHWH will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Watch out sha is on a roll..lol
 
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John Calvin produced nothing but hay. Salvation is a gift and therefore a prize you should fight to keep, THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL WITHOUT OMITTING IMPORTANT LESSONS OF IT. Hay is burnt up like John Calvin. How do I know that, his works have been tested here through his followers you and others and cannot stand in the face of truth THE WORD.
Cop outs use symbols and not their words. How could you do anything other when your words prove futile and impotent before the Word Of Truth Penn Ed?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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1 John 2:18-27 (to "the babes [G3813 - Paidia]" [distinct from v.28's and v.1's "G5040 - Teknia"]) -


Beware of Antichrists

18 Little children [G3813 - Paidia ], it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, whereby we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But it is so that it might be made manifest that they are not all of us.

20 And you have the anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because any lie is not of the truth. 22 Who is the liar, except the one denying that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone denying the Son does not have the Father. The one confessing the Son has the Father also.

Continue in Him

24 You, let what you have heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you have heard from the beginning should abide in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He promised us: eternal life.

26 I have written these things to you concerning those leading you astray. 27 And you, the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But just as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, you shall abide in Him. [or, lit. 'you abide']

[bold / underline mine]
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Would you agree that in 2 John 1:9, that the reference is to people with doctrinal error not moral defection since the context of John is false teachers?
Both, doctrinal error and moral defect. Moral defect because John says they do not have God. And they do not have God because they did not continue in the teaching of Christ.