OSAS= House Built on Sand

[prove-all]

From my notes....

You deny the very basic teachings of scripture. All in perfect tense....continued,
completed, consummated, unending state.

“That which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6. This certifies that once one is born
of the Spirit, then the results of this birth continue unendingly!

“A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven” John 3:27. This certifies that once God has given salvation, then the results of this giving continue unendingly!

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom.
When born of the spirit [at Christs return], we will be a spirit being.

This is not the same as being filled with Gods Holy Spirit.
We are now begotten, still flesh and blood, not born into the kingdom yet.

 

[trofimus]

I had it pulled up a while back so I could post it here. I'll see if I can track it down again.

I think you understood it wrong.

Even though Calvin said we cannot know it about somebody else (it will appear to us in resurrection for sure), we can know it about ourselves by the Spirit who is given to us and serves as a seal of the future inheritance.

For example:

"Though the Lord, by electing his people, adopted them as his sons, we however see that they do not come into possession of this great good until they are called; but when called, the enjoyment of their election is in some measure communicated to them. For which reason the Spirit which they receive is termed by Paul both the “Spirit of adoption,” and the “seal” and “earnest” of the future inheritance; because by his testimony he confirms and seals the certainty of future adoption on their hearts."

Institutes, book III, chapter XXIV - "Election Confirmed by the Calling of God"

So, if you will be able to find what you said about Calvin, I would like to check it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You have to get this idea that there's a new man running around in you like when a new born baby comes home from the hospital. All the new man is is the Spirit of God in union with the spirit of a person. Read Romans 8.

By virtue of his presence, the Holy Spirit makes the old man different. Like Nicodemus, perhaps you're not aware of the concept described in our own scriptures:

6“ 6The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person" - 1 Samuel 10:6

It's a 'new' person in that it is a 'different' person. Like when everybody comments how uncle Willie is a 'new' man now that he quit drinking and gambling. Understand?

How about we read the text where we see what God tells us about the "old man" and the "new man"?

Ephesians 4:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Put off the old man

Be renewed in the spirit of your mind

Put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


The new man is a new creation within the born again believer. It's not the "old man" cleaned up.

Old man cannot be cleaned up. We are instructed to put him off.

We are not told to clean him up and keep him alive.



Colossians 3:

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


The instruction is to "put off the old man" with his deeds ... not clean him up and keep him polished.

Put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him.

Who created the new man?

The new man was created after the image of Him that created him (new man).

The new man is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him (God) that created him.

The word “renewed” is the Greek word anakainoó and, according to HELPS Word-studies, means (bold/underline mine):

Cognate: 341 anakainóō (from 303 /aná, "up, completing a process" and kainoō, "renew," which is derived from 2537 /kainós) – to renew by moving from one stage to a higher (more developed) one; make qualitatively new. See 342 (anakainōsis).

341 /anakainóō ("to renew") only occurs in 2 Cor 4:16 and Col 3:10, both times referring to God ever-transforming the believer – by renewing "the new man" (anthrōpos) in Christ.



In 2 Corinthians 4:16, we read about the inward man:

but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

I picture this inward man being renewed day by day as when God fed the children of Israel with manna from heaven as they wandered in the wilderness. He gave them just what they needed on a day-by-day basis.

And God does the same for us (in a spiritual sense rather than in the physical sense of the manna). He gives to us just what we need on a daily basis in order for us to triumph in Christ Jesus and have the victory over whatever we are going to face that day.

And He does the same thing the next day and the next day and the next day.

I just love how He continues to be involved in our lives. It’s not like we’re born again and then are sent off on our own. He continues with us and wants to be involved in our lives each day. Love, love, love that!!!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus is describing what we are to do, about sheep who have wandered away and become lost.

Actually, Jesus was reproving the pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from publicans and sinners and who murmured because Jesus received publicans and sinners and ate with them … a point which you cotinue to ignore and sweep under the carpet (because, according to you, the pharisees and scribes were "righteous" and "just" ).

So what happens to those who justify [themselves] before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God (Luke 16:15)?

Will they "perish in the everlasting fires of hell if they don’t repent" as you claim the sheep who is lost will (your post #1,333)?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is true that the new man and the Holy Spirit are both in the believer, but they are not the "same thing".

That's right. The new 'you' is the old you now in union with the Holy Spirit. The very core of your being is different because the Holy Spirit is there with you now. Take the Holy Spirit away (because of unbelief) and it's the old you all over again.

When you say the "new man" is the Holy Spirit (God), you are in error.

If the "new man" is the Holy Spirit (God), then when Jesus Christ returns and we are transformed, we become God. And that simply is not what is going to occur.

The "new man" is a completely new creation within the born again believer. According to 1 Peter 1:3 we have been begotten again and in vs 23, Peter tells us it is incorruptible seed.

It’s not just the Holy Spirit coming into our "old man", cleaning the "old man" up, and then leaving upon the failure of the "old man" (which never can be cleaned up and which never ceases to fail ... hence the need for Messiah).

It's the Holy Spirit (God) creating the "new man" within and then renewing that "new man" daily (2 Cor 4:16). And as we "put off the old man" and "put on the new man" we grow up and mature in Christ. And the "new man" shines through more and more as the "old man" decays and falls away.

We put off the old man because the deceitful lusts which drive the old man no longer appeal to us.

We see the deceitful lusts for what they are and they hold no power to separate us from that which is vital to us. We love God more than the lust which does nothing but deceive us into thinking it is needful to us.

 

[UnderGrace]

I don't. I'm just going by what the author of Hebrews says.

The author of Hebrews agrees with all other scripture and the Gospel of saved is saved.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm not the smartest guy in the room but isn't that a grass hopper, not a cricket?

You'd have to take that up with whoever posted the video on youtube.

I posted the video because it was short and got the point across.

 

[UnderGrace]

The point being, Calvin is the one who established 'once saved always saved' in the church. Augustine failed, Calvin succeeded. Even he did not tout it as the doctrine of security and assurance (the way the church does today), and certainly not for the wayward 'believer'. He said the 'believer' who falls away was never was a true believer to begin with.

The problem being, when you make persevering to the end the measure of whether one is truly saved or not you have to accept that you can't know if you measure up to that standard until the end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance. That's a joke. But not as big a joke as the new Free Grace 'once saved always saved' that says you can go back to being an unbeliever and you are still saved. That's the joke of all jokes in the church. But many are falling for it.

Yes he had to correct hundreds of years of false teachings.

 

[UnderGrace]

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom.
When born of the spirit [at Christs return], we will be a spirit being.

This is not the same as being filled with Gods Holy Spirit.
We are now begotten, still flesh and blood, not born into the kingdom yet.

When we are born again we are filled with the Holy Spirit, regenerated from above, yes we are still presently flesh and blood.

 

[Jewel5712]

DID JESUS STOP WORKING AFTER HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS (CHRIST’S FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS)?


WHAT WORK WAS FINISHED ON THE CROSS?


DID CHRIST FINISH HIS WORKS OF SALVATION BY DYING ON THE CROSS?


John 5:17 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”


...the reason the son of man appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. (1 john 3:8)




John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


Luke 24:44-49 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”




IS SALVATION “VOID OF WORKS” OR “ NOT BY WORKS (OF OURSELVES)?


ARE SERVANTS CONSIDERED WORKERS?


ARE PREACHERS,TEACHERS, EVANGELISTS, PASTORS, MINISTERS, ADMINISTRATORS ETC. CONSIDERED SERVANTS AND WORKERS OF GOD?

WHAT IF THEY ONLY HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS, THEN LOOK DOWN ON THE OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY IN HYPOCRISY AS IF THEY'RE THE ONLY LEGITIMATE PART OF IT? WILL THAT FAITH SAVE THEM?( 1 corinthians chapter 12)


WE ARE GOD’S FELLOW WORKERS(1 cor 3:9)

SENT OUT TO HARVEST WHAT WE HAVE NOT WORKED FOR...THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE.


Luke 10:2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.


John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. EVEN NOW the reaper draws his wages, EVEN NOW HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ I SENT YOU TO REAP WHAT YOU HAVE NOT WORKED FOR. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”


ARE THERE WORKS NEEDED TO BE DONE FOR SALVATION?


WE ARE TO SERVE IN THE WORKS OF THE GOSPEL WHICH IS THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.


1 Thessalonians 3:2,5 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and GOD’S FELLOW WORKER in SPREADING THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been USELESS.


Philippians 2:22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has SERVED WITH ME in the WORK OF THE GOSPEL.


Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


John 7:18 HE WHO SPEAKS ON HIS OWN does so to gain honor for himself, but HE WHO WORKS FOR THE HONOR OF THE ONE WHO SENT HIM IS A MAN OF TRUTH; there is nothing false about him.


John 9:4-5 As long as it is day, “WE” MUST DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.


BUT WE ARE NOT WORKING FOR OUR OWN SALVATION BUT FOR THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHOM HE IS THE SAVIOR (eph 5:23),

WHERE HE PUTS THOSE THAT ARE BEING SAVED AND ARE MADE PARTS OF HIS BODY FOR WORKS OF SERVICE.


Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.


1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


Romans 12:4-8 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.


1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


THE TRUE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS IS SELFLESS LOVE.


GOD GAVE US HIS ONLY SON.

JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US.

WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR OUR BROTHERS.


1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.


Philippians 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your OWN INTERESTS, but also to the interests of OTHERS.


Philippians 2:21 For everyone looks out for HIS OWN INTERESTS, not those of Jesus Christ.


Colossians 3:12-17 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


Galatians 6:2,10 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


Matthew 16:24-28 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, HE MUST DENY HIMSELFand take up his cross and follow me. For WHOEVER WANTS TO SAVE HIS LIFE WILL LOSE IT, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”


2 Timothy 2:14-19 A Workman Approved by God Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against QUARRELING ABOUT WORDS; it is of no value, and ONLY RUINS THOSE WHO LISTEN. Do your best to present yourself to God as one APPROVED, a WORKMAN who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because THOSE WHO INDULGE IN IT WILL BECOME MORE AND MORE UNGODLY. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have WANDERED AWAY FROM THE TRUTH. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and THEY DESTROY THE FAITH OF SOME. Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord MUST TURN AWAY FROM WICKEDNESS.”

Christ fufilled the OT prophecy on the cross..he completed his ministry then

 

[Jewel5712]

Interesting! My brother-in-law who is an agnostic, professes no belief in God, and would laugh if you called him a "believer" is a believer (according to your theory)! ????????????


"A believer (status given by God) is always a believer (status given by God)." ????????
Verse for that? Hezekiah 22:12 ??????????

Difference between believer in God and "believing"..first is title..2nd action

 

[Chester]

When you say the "new man" is the Holy Spirit (God), you are in error.

If the "new man" is the Holy Spirit (God), then when Jesus Christ returns and we are transformed, we become God. And that simply is not what is going to occur.

The "new man" is a completely new creation within the born again believer. According to 1 Peter 1:3 we have been begotten again and in vs 23, Peter tells us it is incorruptible seed.

It’s not just the Holy Spirit coming into our "old man", cleaning the "old man" up, and then leaving upon the failure of the "old man" (which never can be cleaned up and which never ceases to fail ... hence the need for Messiah).

It's the Holy Spirit (God) creating the "new man" within and then renewing that "new man" daily (2 Cor 4:16). And as we "put off the old man" and "put on the new man" we grow up and mature in Christ. And the "new man" shines through more and more as the "old man" decays and falls away.

We put off the old man because the deceitful lusts which drive the old man no longer appeal to us.

We see the deceitful lusts for what they are and they hold no power to separate us from that which is vital to us. We love God more than the lust which does nothing but deceive us into thinking it is needful to us.

Getting close - but the putting off the old man and putting on the new man happened when we were born again.

 

[Chester]

That's right. The new 'you' is the old you now in union with the Holy Spirit. The very core of your being is different because the Holy Spirit is there with you now. Take the Holy Spirit away (because of unbelief) and it's the old you all over again.

I agree. The old man is gone in the new believer. "Behold, the old has gone, the new has come" (ore something like that - 2 Corinthians 5 something). We're 'different' now by virtue of the Holy Spirit being in union with our innermost man.

Getting close! But I do not believe the new "you" is the old you. You also say "the old man is gone in the new believer". If the old man is gone as you say later, then it is gone - it has been crucified with Christ and is dead and is dying no more (Rom. 6).

 

[Chester]

Difference between believer in God and "believing"..first is title..2nd action

What????????????????????????????? Being a believer in God is only a title we have? What do you mean?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

What????????????????????????????? Being a believer in God is only a title we have? What do you mean?

i "believe"

she is saying

being a believer <- means genuine belief and it is an actual way of life

something we live by

a belief in Jesus as our savior that runs as deeper than the belief our physical father is our father on earth
it is who we are



were as the word belief can also be tied to mental understanding and opinion <- different than the type of belief that is proven through trust and confidence that endures the test of time


one is a choice <- action
one is a state of being <- new creature

 

[stonesoffire]

Name the church that teaches this, Ralph.

Rather than make a blanket statement concerning the church which teaches the grace of God as God intended and lumping those churches in with whatever church teaches what you claim is being taught, why don't you say something like the Church of _____ in (state), (country) teaches ________ (fill that in with whatever teaching you disagree with).

I attend a church which teaches the grace of God and I have never heard the pastor teach what you claim.


Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

I'd like to know this too. I've attended many different branches and have never heard this message.

The errors lean more to the works...do this, don't do that kind of thing.

 

[stonesoffire]

I have a brother-in-law who was clearly a believer, but now is clearly an agnostic and an unbeliever! To try to say that he was not a believer to start with - well - I walked with him and knew him and I know he believed and changed and was born again!

Unfortunately..people can choose to walk a

Theres no way ANYONE can "maintain" to keep thier salvation this side of heaven. I WILL "maintain" cause i LOVE HIM not to insure my salvation..we are human and prone to sin even as christians..( one is out of obligation..to GET something (salvation) and one is out of love to be OBEDIANT)

God does judge SO THAT we can be saved..we REPENT..ask for His forgiveness and by FAITH and grace ACCEPT Him as Lord and Saviour of our lives

I just heard a message this morning why people return to the world. This scripture is misunderstood a lot of times.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

This is not our loving the Father, but the love of Father to us. Misunderstanding the grace that is freely given was the plan of Father to have children He could have with Him in heaven. This grace is a mystery that Holy Spirit only reveals.

And it's sad when this happens, but my personal view is that God always finishes what He has started.

 

[stonesoffire]

J...,
You are correct...so long as you ...."maintain until the end".... (death).
However, a slight correction...we are not ..."saved"...until G-d judges ads says we are saved. Until then we are of a repented status
Who is advocating other than that?

Preston if you read that scripture that Jesus speaks of enduring to the end in context, you will see that He is speaking of remaining in our first love. Don't let your fire go out when trouble comes.

 

[stonesoffire]

Jewel I saw your post about Elijah and the priests of Baal, but I don't remember the page it's on. Am going to check it out to see if I can see what Holy Spirit is saying to you. Thanks for the challenge. I love doing this kind of thing.

I was in a small group many years ago and we had unity. When one of us was absent from a meeting, the Lord would give the message to the absentee at home. No one ever was behind in that way.

 

[Ralph-]

Getting close! But I do not believe the new "you" is the old you.

It's okay. It's not a hill worth dying for in my opinion.

The 'you' that composes your innermost being is/was/will always be the 'you' God created. The difference is the born again person's innermost being is in union with the Spirit of God. That's make the innermost man 'different' not new as in 'never existed before'.

You also say "the old man is gone in the new believer". If the old man is gone as you say later, then it is gone - it has been crucified with Christ and is dead and is dying no more (Rom. 6).

Yep. The old man is gone in that sense. Old uncle Willie has turned over a new leaf. It's still uncle Willie but he's a 'new' man now. He acts different, he thinks different, he looks different, he even smells different, lol. But it's still uncle Willie.