OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Studyman]

Unanswered question posed to @Ralph- (Post #957) and @justpassinthrough (Post #1,289):

I have asked both you and Ralph the following question before and neither you nor Ralph will answer. Hopefully, you will answer now:

The believer does not turn into an unbeliever. The believer is still born again. He or she is no longer walking in light of who he or she is in Christ Jesus, but that does not mean he or she is not born again.

What happens to the "new man" within the born again one under your scenario?

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

It is clear from the Word's of Jesus that not everyone who "Believes" they are saved, are actually saved.

Jesus, through His Word, warned over and over to "Beware" "Take Heed" "Be not deceived". He wouldn't spend so much time giving us examples of those who "claimed God as their God", but were actually serving the anther god, if it were not an important issue.

It is interesting to note that Jesus, as the Word which became Flesh, gave us a stark and perfectly easy example of the deception He warned us about.

Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Notice how the deceiver uses parts of God's instruction as a tool to deceive Eve.

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Eve knew the commandment.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The first thing the serpent did was convince Eve that she was already saved, already immortal. This is a very important part of this example that Jesus had written for our admonition.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The next thing the serpent convinced Eve of was that God didn't have her best interest at heart. That God Instructions were "Against her". That she needed to be "FREE" from God's instructions in order to know the truth.

Paul was also concerned about this.

2 Cor. 11:
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

He knew we must reject ALL other voices and place our Trust in the Father, and in Jesus to reconcile us to Him.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Most religious people simply do not believe these things. They have been convinced, as Eve was, that they are all set.

I don't believe the scriptures bear this out.

 

[UnderGrace]

Lot's of churches teach the grace of God. The question is, do they teach it accurately? If it's teaching that the grace of God even extends to the ex-believer who no longer cares about or wants the forgiveness of God then, no, they are not teaching the grace of God accurately.

Why do get to define who God extends grace and mercy to?

No, it's not that. What the Bible says is they were weak believers in whom the word was not firmly grounded. And that is exactly the case in regard to the Spirit filled person I know who quit believing.

(I suppose faulty understanding could aid in the word not being firmly grounded.)

Your case studies of people prove nothing, I stand on the word of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit who witnesses to my spirit and affirms each day that I am eternally saved which is not based on my performance, my will, my psychology or emotional status on any given day.

 

[justpassinthrough]

What are you talking about??? It's right there in the text of the text of the parable:

Luke 15:4-5 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? Luke 15:4


Jesus is describing what we are to do, about sheep who have wandered away and become lost.




He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”

He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”

He said to him, “Tend My sheep.” John 21:16







Jesus is in Heaven.

Jesus has finished His ministry on earth, in which His Spirit now dwells in us, for us to do the works that He did.


Here it is from Jesus -

• he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. John 14:12


It's up to believers to preach the Gospel to the world of unbelievers.

It's up to believers to teach the truth to the Church.

It's up to believers to cast out devils.

It's up to believers to heal the sick.

It's up to believer's to go after a brother or sister who is lost, to turn them back to Christ.

• “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.


Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
• And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.

Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:

1. “Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

James 5:19-20

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
• and someone turns him back
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
• will save a soul from death

Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.


Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.


For one of His sheep to become lost, it must first belong to the Shepherd.




JPT

 

[UnderGrace]

U...,

If you are suggesting we cannot give up/loose our repented status......that is not scriptural.

The Bible teaches us that we must..."maintain until the end".....warns against backsliding ...warns us to keep our garments spotless and chasens us to demonstrate love and devotion thru service.

Of course we want to be pleasing children, however our failures do not unsave us.
God is not fickle.

 

[Ralph-]

I've never heard the term "ex-believer". The pastor teaches reconciliation.

Reconciliation refers to the fact that all of us start out 'alive' but then die because when we are able to choose between right and wrong we invariably choose wrong, and die (Romans 7:9).

The pastor also teaches about the grace of God being a teacher as shown in Titus 2. Just as the law teaches the children of Israel and brings to Christ, grace teaches the born again believer. I don't think people believe that grace teaches us. People think grace is "getting what you don't deserve" and that's the end of it. There's so much more to this "grace of God" which has not been looked at and understood.

I agree with this, but if a pastor is also going to teach that grace is your license to go back to the world in unbelief and you are still saved then it pretty much nullifies the message of God's healing grace.

I see this all the time, Free Grace believers who boast on the grace of God to keep them saved, but who are unconsciously saying that the grace of God is not powerful enough to sanctify their behavior.

 

[Ralph-]

our failures do not unsave us.

Right, your UNBELIEF does. The actions you take in your unbelief are just the result of that unbelief.

 

[Chester]

You have to get this idea that there's a new man running around in you like when a new born baby comes home from the hospital. All the new man is is the Spirit of God in union with the spirit of a person. Read Romans 8.



By virtue of his presence, the Holy Spirit makes the old man different. Like Nicodemus, perhaps you're not aware of the concept described in our own scriptures:

6“ 6The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person" - 1 Samuel 10:6

It's a 'new' person in that it is a 'different' person. Like when everybody comments how uncle Willie is a 'new' man now that he quit drinking and gambling. Understand?

Ralph -- Check out what the Bible says about the old man - It is not found in the believer - It is crucified with Christ. I agree with Reneweddaybyday on this one - post 1354

 

[Chester]

You have to get this idea that there's a new man running around in you like when a new born baby comes home from the hospital. All the new man is is the Spirit of God in union with the spirit of a person. Read Romans 8.

It is true that the new man and the Holy Spirit are both in the believer, but they are not the "same thing". The new man in each believer is what makes each Christian a unique person. But each believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[UnderGrace]

Right, your UNBELIEF does. The actions you take in your unbelief are just the result of that unbelief.

From my notes....

You deny the very basic teachings of scripture. All in perfect tense....continued, completed, consummated, unending state.

“That which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6. This certifies that once one is born of the Spirit, then the results of this birth continue unendingly!

“A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven” John 3:27. This certifies that once God has given salvation, then the results of this giving continue unendingly!

“he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” John 5:24. This verifies that the act of passing from death to life continues unendingly!

“And we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ” John 6:69. This confirms that the position of believing continues for ever!

“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” John 10:39. This corroborates the result of being given by God continues eternally!

So just before Jesus died he cried out “It is finished!” John 19:30. This shows that Christ’s accomplishments on the cross endure forever and they don’t need to be lost and reapplied.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God” Romans 5:1,2. This verifies that our access to God endures unendingly. It also confirms that our standing in grace continues eternally!

“For he who has died has been freed [justified] from sin” Romans 6:7. This validates that our freedom from sin (justification) continues without abatement!

A perfect God created a perfect plan of perfect salvation not in any way lost by any weakness of man.

Our lack of faith does not nullify the reality. It simply denies the reality.

Salvation cannot lose you. Once finished, always finished. God knows those who are His and there is no status of unbeliever there.

 

[Ralph-]

You have to get this idea that there's a new man running around in you like when a new born baby comes home from the hospital.

Hmmm......left off the last part of the thought, lol.

You have to get this idea that there's a new man running around in you like when a new born baby comes home from the hospital out of your head. That's not the new birth.

 

[Ralph-]

From my notes....

You deny the very basic teachings of scripture. All in perfect tense....continued, completed, consummated, unending state.

“That which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6. This certifies that once one is born of the Spirit, then the results of this birth continue unendingly!

“A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven” John 3:27. This certifies that once God has given salvation, then the results of this giving continue unendingly!

“he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” John 5:24. This verifies that the act of passing from death to life continues unendingly!

“And we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ” John 6:69. This confirms that the position of believing continues for ever!

“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” John 10:39. This corroborates the result of being given by God continues eternally!

So just before Jesus died he cried out “It is finished!” John 19:30. This shows that Christ’s accomplishments on the cross endure forever and they don’t need to be lost and reapplied.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God” Romans 5:1,2. This verifies that our access to God endures unendingly. It also confirms that our standing in grace continues eternally!

“For he who has died has been freed [justified] from sin” Romans 6:7. This validates that our freedom from sin (justification) continues without abatement!

A perfect God created a perfect plan of perfect salvation not in any way lost by any weakness of man.

Our lack of faith does not nullify the reality. It simply denies the reality.

Salvation cannot lose you. Once finished, always finished. God knows those who are His and there is no status of unbeliever there.

I'm not spending my Saturday all day on line. Let me just start with this and we can discuss more later:

"25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:25

Can you see the negative implication to your theology in this verse?

 

[Ralph-]

Our lack of faith does not nullify the reality.

It's absolutely amazing how you so vigorously defend the reformed movement and then say something so utterly contradictory to it like this.

 

[trofimus]

Even Calvin himself said you, ultimately, can not know for sure if you are of the elect until the resurrection. He did say you could have a modicum of assurance but that, ultimately, you can not know until the very end.

Which book, chapter?

 

[Ralph-]

Which book, chapter?

The point being, Calvin is the one who established 'once saved always saved' in the church. Augustine failed, Calvin succeeded. Even he did not tout it as the doctrine of security and assurance (the way the church does today), and certainly not for the wayward 'believer'. He said the 'believer' who falls away was never was a true believer to begin with.

The problem being, when you make persevering to the end the measure of whether one is truly saved or not you have to accept that you can't know if you measure up to that standard until the end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance. That's a joke. But not as big a joke as the new Free Grace 'once saved always saved' that says you can go back to being an unbeliever and you are still saved. That's the joke of all jokes in the church. But many are falling for it.

 

[Ralph-]

It is true that the new man and the Holy Spirit are both in the believer, but they are not the "same thing".

That's right. The new 'you' is the old you now in union with the Holy Spirit. The very core of your being is different because the Holy Spirit is there with you now. Take the Holy Spirit away (because of unbelief) and it's the old you all over again.

 

[Ralph-]

Ralph -- Check out what the Bible says about the old man - It is not found in the believer - It is crucified with Christ. I agree with Reneweddaybyday on this one - post 1354

I agree. The old man is gone in the new believer. "Behold, the old has gone, the new has come" (ore something like that - 2 Corinthians 5 something). We're 'different' now by virtue of the Holy Spirit being in union with our innermost man.

 

[trofimus]

The point being, Calvin is the one who established 'once saved always saved' in the church. Augustine failed, Calvin succeeded. Even he did not tout it as the doctrine of security and assurance (the way the church does today), and certainly not for the wayward 'believer'. He said the 'believer' who falls away was never was a true believer to begin with.

The problem being, when you make persevering to the end the measure of whether one is truly saved or not you have to accept that you can't know if you measure up to that standard until the end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance. That's a joke. But not as big a joke as the new Free Grace 'once saved always saved' that says you can go back to being an unbeliever and you are still saved. That's the joke of all jokes in the church. But many are falling for it.

Well, I am more interested in what you said earlier:

"Even Calvin himself said you, ultimately, can not know for sure if you are of the elect until the resurrection."

I would like to read it for myself. Where did Calvin say I cannot know for sure that I am elect until the resurrection?

 

[Ralph-]

Why do get to define who God extends grace and mercy to?

I don't. I'm just going by what the author of Hebrews says.

 

[Ralph-]

Well, I am more interested in what you said earlier:

"Even Calvin himself said you, ultimately, can not know for sure if you are of the elect until the resurrection."

I would like to read it for myself. Where did Calvin say I cannot know for sure that I am elect until the resurrection?

I had it pulled up a while back so I could post it here. I'll see if I can track it down again.

 

[Ralph-]

I'm not the smartest guy in the room but isn't that a grass hopper, not a cricket?