BASIS FOR PURGATORY IN THE BIBLE

[Jackson123]

The riset catholic teach purgatory is to Lie, to make bible look like Lie.

To make the cross not enough for salvation, undermine the finish work of God.

God say forgiveness is free only need to accept Him

Catholic say catholic say purgatory is an Option forgiveness

So catholic accused God lie

Lucifer behind this doctrine.

 

[Ralph-]

Nowhere does it say God will be passing believers through a fire.

It's figurative. Believers won't actually pass through a fire. All believers will escape the flames of the coming destruction of the present age.

 

[jaybird88]

purgatory is a Jewish belief that existed long before Catholics ever existed.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. 2 Peter 2:3 NLT

 

[jameen]

As a Protestant, I thought maybe the concept of purgatory came from this passage:

25“Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26“Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent. "-Matthew 5:25-26

And this:

33"Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."-Matthew 18:33-34


But the problem is, if you are to be confined until you can pay back what you owe then you will never get out. The only way to unload the debt we owe for the sin of how we have treated people is to have that debt forgiven. There is no payment possible by mere mortals to pay the immense debt we owe. If we have to pay it we will be in prison forever. Jesus is not teaching us that this is how the debt can and must be paid. He's making us see that we need to have it forgiven. That's the only way.

Wow Ralph you are reading our Catholic Apologetic lessons huh.

BTW why you cannot refute that the prison of spirits in 1st Peter 3:18-19 is in fact purgatory?

If not, what is that prison of spirits?

Anyone can also help Ralph on his new assignment hihihi

 

[jameen]

The idea that your sin is cleansed by your suffering is nowhere to be find in the Bible. The only way revealed and given by God is offering, sacrifice (of animals in the OT and of the Son of God in the NT).

It is in the Bible. In a book that Luther does not wish to include as God inspired Scriptures.

2nd Maccabees Chapter 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

Remember that it is only in the Book of Maccabees you can find the story of Hanukkah which is celebrated by Jews during December.

purgatory is a Jewish belief that existed long before Catholics ever existed.

Agree and this is why Judas Maccabees pray for the dead.

 

[trofimus]

It is in the Bible. In a book that Luther does not wish to include as God inspired Scriptures.

2nd Maccabees Chapter 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

Remember that it is only in the Book of Maccabees you can find the story of Hanukkah which is celebrated by Jews during December.

First, this does not correspond to the RCC doctrine of purgatory.

Second, we now have the New covenant which that is much more clearer and specific than the Old Testament

Third, Macabees are historical books, its neither Law nor prophecy. Its dogmatic relevance is the same as something in the book of Ruth or what Judas did has the same relevance to what Samson did, for example.

Fourth, the books is concentrating on Juda, that what he did was noble, loving etc. There is no promise that those idolaters were really forgiven based on this. But why not? It does not matter now, because now what matters is the sacrifice of Christ that pays for our sins.

Fifth, text of the Old Testament books generally is uncertain and was under heavy commentaries added into the text. We cannot even know if this text was in the original 2nd Macabees. Therefore, again, the NT should be our primary source for any dogma.

 

[Ralph-]

Wow Ralph you are reading our Catholic Apologetic lessons huh.

I'm guessing that the Catholic lesson leaves out the part about never being able to pay the penalty for sin.

BTW why you cannot refute that the prison of spirits in 1st Peter 3:18-19 is in fact purgatory?

If not, what is that prison of spirits?

"(T)he spirits...in prison" (1 Peter 3:19) refers to the people who were destroyed in the flood of Noah's day. While they were alive on earth before the flood Jesus made proclamation to them through the Spirit. They didn't listen and perished in the flood and are imprisoned in the place where the wicked dead reside awaiting the day of Judgment:

"19in which (the Spirit) also He (Jesus) went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark"-1 Peter 3:19-20


We see in 2 Peter that this prison they went to is not so they can work their way out of, or be redeemed from the penalty for their disobedience, but rather this is where they, and the fallen angels, are being held until they are punished on the day of judgment:

"4 ....God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. "-2 Peter 2:4-9


See, no purgatory here. No purging of sin. No redemption. This prison is the place where the wicked dead are being held for the day the sentence for their disobedience is carried out. It's only while a person has breath that they can turn to God in repentance and be saved. After death a person can not cross over from the place of the wicked to the place of the righteous:

"during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ "-Luke 16:25-26

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Few will be able to grasp and accept this teaching and will instead continue in their "believe like me, or else" Christianity, thinking that to believe in God and please him is to have accurate doctrine. I've resigned myself to this fact.

The thing is accurate doctrine is essential, otherwise church devolves into this fake, worldly Christian love that we see all around us (at least I see it). Accurate doctrine will burn away that superficiality and wordliness if it is taught and practiced., but unfortunately, some mixture of true doctrine and man's doctrines are taught instead (which leavens the whole lump), because most people don't want to hear true doctrine and preachers don't want to lose paying members.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Wow Ralph you are reading our Catholic Apologetic lessons huh.

BTW why you cannot refute that the prison of spirits in 1st Peter 3:18-19 is in fact purgatory?

If not, what is that prison of spirits?

Anyone can also help Ralph on his new assignment hihihi

That passage is easy to stumble over due to its peculiar and awkward wording. Some think it means what you think it means, others believe it's referring to the spirits of men who Christ proclaimed salvation to through Noah that are now imprisoned awaiting judgment.

 

[Nehemiah6]

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This has nothing to do with Purgatory.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Third, Macabees are historical books, its neither Law nor prophecy. Its dogmatic relevance is the same as something in the book of Ruth or what Judas did has the same relevance to what Samson did, for example.

I agree about Maccabees. However, Ruth is far more than just an historical record. It is by far one of the most powerful, spiritually edifying messages about GOD's grace in the bible. According to the law, no Moabite was to ever enter the congregation of Israel. Yet Boaz's faith to violate the letter and put his own inheritance in jeopardy to honor Ruth's love and faithfulness was rewarded by GOD making him an ancestor of the messiah. In a way it subsumes all doctrine.

 

[trofimus]

I agree about Maccabees. However, Ruth is far more than just an historical record. It is by far one of the most powerful, spiritually edifying messages about GOD's grace in the bible. According to the law, no Moabite was to ever enter the congregation of Israel. Yet Boaz's faith to violate the letter and put his own inheritance in jeopardy to honor Ruth's love and faithfulness was rewarded by GOD making him an ancestor of the messiah. In a way it subsumes all doctrine.

Ruth is never quoted in the New Testament. Its good you found some message in it, but it is not one of the main books of the OT, IMHO.

Its interesting that some Jew married some Moabite, but I doubt it subsumes all doctrine.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If not, what is that prison of spirits?

It is called Tartarus, and the spirits are evil angels confined there and awaiting their final judgment. This has nothing to do with Purgatory (an imaginary concept).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Ruth is never quoted in the New Testament. Its good you found some message in it, but it is not one of the main books of the OT, IMHO.

Its interesting that some Jew married some Moabite, but I doubt it subsumes all doctrine.

Some Jew marrying a Moabite certainly doesn't subsume any doctrine, but a faith that obeys grace and mercy above the letter certainly does, because that is what all doctrine points to.

 

[mailmandan]

http://www.josefurban.org/purgatory-purifying-fire-or-fatal-fable-by-mike-gendron.html

 

[garee]

Wow Ralph you are reading our Catholic Apologetic lessons huh.

BTW why you cannot refute that the prison of spirits in 1st Peter 3:18-19 is in fact purgatory?

If not, what is that prison of spirits?

Anyone can also help Ralph on his new assignment hihihi

I have some experience sharing on a Catholic board that shares its opinion with that of Protestantism (approx. 10 years)

I can help you if you are willing to seek the approval of God according to the commandment in 2 Timothy 2;15 and not seek the approval of your fathers (men seen) . Remember its not the oral tradition of the fathers that we are commanded to study by dividng . that would be two different kinds of teaching masters we can only serve one. The Holy Spirit not seen

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.2 Timothy 2;15

The prison ( revealed in 1 Peter 1:11) who prophesied of the grace to come is holding pen of born again spirits, held in the bosom of Abraham, which simply means the presence of God. They who had the born again Spirit of Christ in them were awaiting the outcome of the trial of the Son of man Jesus. .Jesus satisfied the just demands of the father and in effect paid the full price to release them .as the glory that followed the suffering of Christ.(the first resurrection)

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1: 10-11

Catholicism, which does do despite to the grace of God makes that glory of Christ's suffering by which the graves were opened into a work as a remnant of grace as a unknown amount to everyone but what they must call the "queen of heaven". They say that she the strange woman which they call Mary received the fullness of grace while again others a remnant or unknown amount of grace .

They perform that to create another unseen mediator as a false source of faith other than the Holy Spirit and add 3500 and rising picking up sped as workers with familiar spirits which they must call patron saints . They have no faith as that which come from hearing one God one mediator .

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Again not 3500 and rising with the same available idol images(teraphims) used to put a face on the legion when it, the spirit of the antichrist comes up from the pit.

 

[garee]

purgatory is a Jewish belief that existed long before Catholics ever existed.

Yes they what they must call a law of the fathers (apostolic succession) copied the pattern from the unbelieving Jew to the letter. Substituting the name Abraham in respect to his flesh, for the name Peter in respect to his flesh

 

[notuptome]

It is in the Bible. In a book that Luther does not wish to include as God inspired Scriptures.

2nd Maccabees Chapter 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

Remember that it is only in the Book of Maccabees you can find the story of Hanukkah which is celebrated by Jews during December.



Agree and this is why Judas Maccabees pray for the dead.

Every good catholic knows that purgatory comes from the teaching in 2 Maccabees. It is one of the reasons that the apocryphal books were omitted from the bible. Please note that Judas Maccabees redeemed his men with silver and gold. Something Peter tells us is not how men are redeemed.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Jesus when He spoke of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 made the statement that those in the torments of hades could not pass into the bliss of Abrahams bosom. Catholics will discover that purgatory is eternal. It will take all of eternity in flames of condemnation to purge even one tiny blot of sin.

Because the teaching of 2 Maccabees contradicts other scripture it is clearly not the inspired word of God. It is in fact false teaching and many souls are perishing in their sin because of this teaching.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preacher4truth]

If there were such a place as purgatory, NONE of us would ever get out. So, to make it simple, God called it hell so there would be no confusion. Heaven/Hell. It's simple, really.