BASIS FOR PURGATORY IN THE BIBLE

jameen · Jul 21, 2018

Can anyone explain with Bible verses if you disagree that the verses used are wrong before giving verses to disprove the existence of purgatory?

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The prison of spirits which Christ had visited after he was crucified is purgatory ( 1 Peter 3:18-19)

There is a need for purgatory in order to be cleansed because for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God as mentioned in Romans 3:23.

you cannot go to paradise if you have stain of sin:

Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Miri · Jul 22, 2018

I think Catholics believe that no one is fit enough for heaven, so they have
to spend some time in purgatory.

No mention of purgatory in between

Hebrews 9:27-28 NLT
[27] And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment,
[28] so also Christ was offered once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins
of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation
to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

People who are saved this side of death, already have ever lasting life guaranteed.

John 5:24 NKJV
[24] "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him
who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has
passed from death into life.

Dan58 · Jul 22, 2018

I agree, purgatory is a Catholic invention. There's no need for penance, your either in or your out.

Jackson123 · Jul 22, 2018

jameen said:

Can anyone explain with Bible verses if you disagree that the verses used are wrong before giving verses to disprove the existence of purgatory?

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The prison of spirits which Christ had visited after he was crucified is purgatory ( 1 Peter 3:18-19)

There is a need for purgatory in order to be cleansed because for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God as mentioned in Romans 3:23.

you cannot go to paradise if you have stain of sin:

Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

1 cor3 is not talking about purgatory

Purgatory is to clean,

That verse is to test

Clean and test is 2 different word that have 2 different meaning.

I clean the car doesn't mean I test the car.

To say clean = test is Lie.

A Lot of catholic teaching is Lie. Be careful Dear.

OneFaith · Jul 22, 2018

jameen said:

This is speaking of judgement day. If you test hay and gold with fire, which one will survive the fire? Hay will burn up completely, but fire only refines gold and makes it all the more beautiful, so gold will survive the fire test. Both the gold and hay represent our deeds. All christians will have deeds that are both gold and hay (hay representing something we've done wrong). And we know that even one sin will keep you out of heaven, but those who are in Christ will escape eternal fire despite our deeds.

But we must understand, and have the attitude that we barely escaped this fire, so test your deeds now because you want to present God with many golden deeds. Why does it matter if you will escape the fire anyways? Because if you give up caring you give up trying, and if you give up effort you start using Christ's blood as a license to sin, and if that happens you will lose your escape goat, and instead of barely escaping the fire at judgement day, you will not escape it. So what He's saying is we escape only by the skin of our teeth, so tread carefully.

Bad translations for "hell" and "preach"- which should be "hades" and "proclaim"...

Christ did not go to hell, He went to Hades- which is the realm of the dead, where there is both paradise (Abraham's side) and torment (read Luke 16:19-31). Jesus said to the theif on the cross "Today you will be with Me in paradise." Paradise- not hell.

Just as Abraham was able to speak from paradise to the rich man in torment across the great chasm, Christ was able to make a proclaimation from paradise to those in torment (which included those who were the most evil from the days when Noah built the ark). You see, during the building of the ark Christ was in great distress, knowing that the the ark represented Him- which meant that He would suffer a great death in order to save us. But what about those who will not be saved?

The most evil people who turned down His efforts on the cross by their disobedience to God. He would proclaim to them that He did not suffer in vain, that He saved these souls who are in paradise, and that they in torment will never have the advantage of His blood because they disobeyed God. They were so evil that the bible says their every thought was evil 100% of the time. Jesus did not go to them to preach and give them another chance. For the bible says mankind is to die only once then face judgement. After you die there is no second chance. "They will be judged for deeds done while they were in the body."

garee · Jul 22, 2018

jameen said:

If Christ has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it presenting us his bride as unstained, as white as snow.

I think we would have to look at the context of the foundation seeing it is not of mans actions seen . The argument was causing division from the true foundation... Christ not seen . Many times when a parable was misunderstood no spiritual (understanding) the apostles as disciples would play the game as to "who is the greatest" walking by sight. Which Christ rebuked them for the wrong manner of spirit .(Luke 9:55)

It would seem that building on the foundation, not as the foundation worldly goods gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, were used to help further the work but not built upon them (the things seen). Fire tests the works to see if faith that alone comes from hearing God was the foundation.

An example I would offer would be like when John was in prison and had doubts if Jesus was the Christ. Jesus used a parable hiding the spiritual understanding that reflected the eternal gospel using worldly goods as wise stewards.

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

The blind see, represents those given the spiritual understanding. The lame walk represents those who now walk by faith. The lepers dead in their trespasses and sins (the disease of no sensitivity to pain) like with Paul who rejected the thorns of the letter of the law pricking his conscience represent those who were not sensitive to spiritual matters they are given a born again new heart. The deaf hear as the Holy Spirit gives them ears to hear the Spirit. The dead are raised represents those born again . To the poor represents those spiritually bankrupt of new life.... ultimately altogether the gospel is preached.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.1 Corinthian 3: 1-11

Those who do not respond to the gospel God gave no increase) they work of brining it will go up in smoke but they themselves will not be affected . The gospel is not dependent on the hands of men.

trofimus · Jul 22, 2018

jameen said:

Wow, this condition is complicated, I read it three times and I am still not sure what I am supposed to do

blue_ladybug · Jul 22, 2018

There is no such thing as purgatory...

trofimus · Jul 22, 2018

jameen said:

The idea that your sin is cleansed by your suffering is nowhere to be find in the Bible. The only way revealed and given by God is offering, sacrifice (of animals in the OT and of the Son of God in the NT).

blue_ladybug · Jul 22, 2018

OneFaith said:

This is speaking of judgement day. If you test hay and gold with fire, which one will survive the fire? Hay will burn up completely, but fire only refines gold and makes it all the more beautiful, so gold will survive the fire test. Both the gold and hay represent our deeds. All christians will have deeds that are both gold and hay (hay representing something we've done wrong). And we know that even one sin will keep you out of heaven, but those who are in Christ will escape eternal fire despite our deeds.

But we must understand, and have the attitude that we barely escaped this fire, so test your deeds now because you want to present God with many golden deeds. Why does it matter if you will escape the fire anyways? Because if you give up caring you give up trying, and if you give up effort you start using Christ's blood as a license to sin, and if that happens you will lose your escape goat, and instead of barely escaping the fire at judgement day, you will not escape it. So what He's saying is we escape only by the skin of our teeth, so tread carefully.

Bad translations for "hell" and "preach"- which should be "hades" and "proclaim"...

Christ did not go to hell, He went to Hades- which is the realm of the dead, where there is both paradise (Abraham's side) and torment (read Luke 16:19-31). Jesus said to the theif on the cross "Today you will be with Me in paradise." Paradise- not hell.

Just as Abraham was able to speak from paradise to the rich man in torment across the great chasm, Christ was able to make a proclaimation from paradise to those in torment (which included those who were the most evil from the days when Noah built the ark). You see, during the building of the ark Christ was in great distress, knowing that the the ark represented Him- which meant that He would suffer a great death in order to save us. But what about those who will not be saved?

The most evil people who turned down His efforts on the cross by their disobedience to God. He would proclaim to them that He did not suffer in vain, that He saved these souls who are in paradise, and that they in torment will never have the advantage of His blood because they disobeyed God. They were so evil that the bible says their every thought was evil 100% of the time. Jesus did not go to them to preach and give them another chance. For the bible says mankind is to die only once then face judgement. After you die there is no second chance. "They will be judged for deeds done while they were in the body."

"even one sin will keep us out of heaven"? That is utter baloney. If that sin is repented of, that person WILL go to heaven. I'm sure God will give us one last chance to repent when we stand before Him to be judged.. especially since we're ALL gonna die with unrepented sin. Even you, Faith.

Hungry · Jul 22, 2018

My question is this, can anyone else see the errors in logic? There are as many interpretations as there are posters. How can the Word of God, discerned by those who are continually seeking Him be so contrary in understanding? The bigger problem isn’t figuring out whether or not purgatory is a fabrication. The problem is that we are all reading the same “living Word”, the same passages, supposedly interpreted by the Holy Spirit quickened with our soul and barely find agreement on any matter, much less this one. Yet, everything seems clear to each and everyone of us as if it were The Almighty Himself who whispered it into our ear.

It should be obvious that some us may be right, some of us may be wrong or...we are all wrong. Admittedly I enjoy sharing my “wisdom” as much as the other person, but it has occurred to me that nobody cares. I suspect that most people are here only to validate their beliefs by soliciting likemindedness in the forums. But, what’s the point? At the end of more wasted time, we all leave with exactly the same views we came with, perhaps cementing a pseudo truth further into our belief system. Since we all hold a different interpretation of truth, whose truth will set us free? Don’t say “the truth of the gospel” because most find little to agree on.

There are many people on this site with beliefs that will jeopardize salvation and still they argue, believing what makes them happy, opposed to what the text actually states. If any of us truly wants to have understanding and discernment they need to enter these forums like children. Children are curious and love to learn. They have no opinion yet, they just file information. The brain is fantastic at sorting out crap. These are my thoughts as I scroll down another thread of conjecture and invented theology. Be blessed, may real Truth find you all, because it’s hard to find it looking here.

prove-all · Jul 22, 2018

Origins of Heaven and Hell

The modern conceptions of both heaven and hell have their origins in ancient Egyptian culture. The Egyptians believed that they would stand before, and be judged by, the god Osiris upon their death: “When the verdict is favorable and he has been cleared of any impurity, his heart is restored, and after several other ordeals, he is ushered into the bright Elysian Fields (the fields of Alu) beyond the water.… Henceforth, he enjoys the perennial life of the blessed under the shadow of the tree of life, or the sycamore of Nut, the goddess of the sky, a true Osiris” (Kaufmann Kohler, Heaven and Hell in Comparative Religion, pp. 22-23).

When the verdict was negative, the sinner experienced the “second death.” He was then dismembered and subjected to the fiercest tortures, including burning by hot coals, plunging into deep waters, or cutting the
body into pieces by sharp swords. “We have here the very origin of [Dante’s poems]the Inferno and Paradiso” (ibid., p. 23).

These pagan beliefs became a part of modern theology through the literature of Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), best known for the Divine Comedy in three parts: Inferno, Purgatorio and Paradiso. Dante’s personal ideas about hell came largely from the writings of the Greek philosophers Plato and Virgil. His Inferno included a tour through the various levels of hell, where sinners suffered by an eternally punishing fire. This story is the basis for beliefs on hell among millions of professing Christians.

Ralph- · Jul 22, 2018

jameen said:

The fire being spoken of is the fire of the final judgment on the Day when Christ appears (vs.13), not a temporary holding place after death where refinement occurs. The saved person will pass through this fire of Judgment because he believes in Christ for protection from that fire.

And if he has been unsuccessful in his labors at adding people to God's temple of living stones--real stones capable of withstanding the fires of the coming judgment--then he will pass through the Judgment alone with nothing to show for his labor in the temple of God. He will be saved, but will bring no one with him, like a man who escapes from a burning apartment building and escapes with only his own life.

jameen said:

And everyone who believes and trusts in Christ for justification has bridged the gap between God and where they have fallen short. No need for purgatory to repair what is already repaired in Christ through our faith.

jameen said:

Everyone who believes and trusts in Christ has the defilement of their sin removed. They are as pure and blameless as Christ himself. As long as we keep believing and trusting in Christ's blood for purification we stand perfect before the Father. No need for a purgatory for a gap in righteousness that does not exist.

Ralph- · Jul 22, 2018

As a Protestant, I thought maybe the concept of purgatory came from this passage:

25“Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26“Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent. "-Matthew 5:25-26

And this:

33"Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."-Matthew 18:33-34

But the problem is, if you are to be confined until you can pay back what you owe then you will never get out. The only way to unload the debt we owe for the sin of how we have treated people is to have that debt forgiven. There is no payment possible by mere mortals to pay the immense debt we owe. If we have to pay it we will be in prison forever. Jesus is not teaching us that this is how the debt can and must be paid. He's making us see that we need to have it forgiven. That's the only way.

Ralph- · Jul 22, 2018

Hungry said:

God doesn't seem to care as much about gathering the church under singleness of doctrine as he does singleness of character--godly, Christ-like character. That goal is what is eluding the church and making us look like idiots (I've made my own personal contribution to that image).

We think Christianity is all about accuracy of doctrine but what it really is all about is acting like Christ.

"what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule "-Galatians 6:15-16

Follow this rule: Be a new creation.
Few will be able to grasp and accept this teaching and will instead continue in their "believe like me, or else" Christianity, thinking that to believe in God and please him is to have accurate doctrine. I've resigned myself to this fact.

MattforJesus · Jul 22, 2018

jameen said:

Purgatory.

NOUN - (in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.

ADJECTIVE - archaic, having the quality of cleansing or purifying.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death(not physical); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is not a purgatory for however a person dies, whether with sin on their record, or sin forgiven and their record clean, they will remain in that state forever.

For it is appointed unto men once to die, then comes the judgment, so as soon as we die judgment is already set, so if a person dies with sin on their record there is no reversing it in the afterlife.

We only have the chance on this earth to be saved while in the flesh, for the sin dwells in the flesh, which Paul said there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh, and the Spirit and flesh are contrary to each other.

And if our sins are forgiven and we have a clean record we can put off the flesh, and preserve the soul having a glorified body.

It is because of the flesh that we can receive forgiveness and be saved, for we can put off the flesh and our soul saved.

An angel cannot be redeemed for there is no way to put off the sin, for when they rebelled and sinned they tainted their whole body seeing they are only one component, spirit.

But people are soul and flesh, and the soul is what will live on forever, and the true essence of people, so if they are forgiven with no sin on their record when they die, they put off the flesh where the sin resides, and their soul is saved for they are more than one component.

If a person dies with sin on their record not forgiven they cannot be redeemed, for they are out of the flesh now, and in the spirit realm, so their whole being is tainted like a fallen angel with no way to put off the sin for they are not in the flesh, so the sin cannot go anywhere to be removed from them like a person in the flesh.

And all spirits go back to God who gave them regardless of how the person acted on earth, so no one will have the spirit in the afterlife, but only the soul will live on, so they cannot preserve their spirit and be saved for it is not part of them, and the sins surely will not transfer to the spirit, for the spirit cannot be tainted which is why they all go back to God who gave them regardless if the person was forgiven, or died in their sins.

There is no purgatory for people that died in their sins to be able to remove the sins and be forgiven, for their whole being is tainted with sin being only one component, soul, and nowhere for the sin to be transferred to another component, like the flesh while alive on earth.

Which it would seem if God forgives us it does not matter if we are one component the sins should be removed, but it appears it does not look that way, for the sins have to be transferred to another component that is part of us, and preserve our true essence, which in people's case is the soul.

Lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

It kind of reminds me of the scapegoat in the Bible, which it seems as if our flesh is the scapegoat which is where the sins reside, and with the mind we serve Christ, led by the Spirit, and our soul is saved.

When we confess our sins to God, and are forgiven, we make atonement for our sins, and the blood of Christ washes away our sins, and our flesh which is alive becomes the scapegoat that carries the burden of the sins, that we can put off and be saved.

People that die in their sins are out of the flesh, and no way to put off the sins, and their whole body is tainted with sin with no way to put off the sin.

The flesh is only the scapegoat while it is alive.

OstrichSmiling · Jul 22, 2018

jameen said:

Purgatory marginalizes the message of the cross. It does not actually exist in scriptures. Jesus died on the cross as propitiation for all sins. All sins. The venial, what RCC claims Purgatory is reserved for to burn away from the believer in it, were also covered under the blood.
Purgatory is a Catholic invention. And in the beginning it made the church a great deal of money for its invention in that "indulgences" extricated a dead loved one from that punishment. In other words, pay enough money and the venial sins can miraculously be hurried up and burned away and then your loved one is paroled and goes to Heaven.

Isaiah 53:5. One verse example that Purgatory is not Biblical.

The other example regardless of the RCC's machinations with scripture in the American Standard Bible, the officially approved Papal bible for Catholics, is the fact if Purgatory was substantiated by God's word alone, the Second Council of Lyons, convened in 1274 under Pope (not so) Innocent IV, would not have decreed it officially in existence.
Later, the Council of Trent reiterated Purgatory by decreeing the doctrine of Justification an anathema. A curse or cursed. In direct response to the Reformist Martin Luther and his teachings.

Purgatory has a long history of being validated by churchmen. The most recent in relation to our generation is Vatican Council II. They renewed the findings of previous councils and included Purgatory.

Deade · Jul 22, 2018

Ralph- said:

Ralph, the only fire believers will pass through is the trial by fire in the present life (1 Pet. 4:17). When tribulation comes against us only real faith will remain after the so called fire. Nowhere does it say God will be passing believers through a fire. The Great White Throne Judgment won't even occur until we have reigned with Christ for the millennium.

OstrichSmiling · Jul 22, 2018

Deade said:

Ralph, the only fire believers will pass through is the trial by fire in the present life (1 Pet. 4:17). When tribulation comes against us only real faith will remain after the so called fire. Nowhere does it say God will be passing believers through a fire. The Great White Throne Judgment won't even occur until we have reigned with Christ for the millennium.

View attachment 185575

Love the eyebrows.

OneFaith · Jul 22, 2018

blue_ladybug said:

Yes, even one sin not washed away by Christ's blood will keep you out of heaven. If you are in Christ, your sins are not swept under the rug, they are not hidden somewhere, they don't exist anymore. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before, and thank you for mentioning it, cause I didn't mean it that way at all.

BASIS FOR PURGATORY IN THE BIBLE

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