I'm not sure how God brings a spiritually dead sinner into faith and life. I don't know how He does it or which gift we receive first. The main thing is, we can do absolutely nothing to effect our salvation God does it all we are just passengers along for the ride.
Why so much confusion about salvation?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Sorry i disagreeYou can study all you like and you will still have to chose one of the opposing views. The best and most experienced Bible theologians take opposing views on the question of salvation by election or works.
I am niether calvanist or arminian in my belief (nor am i roman as in catholc or orthodox)
We need to stop trying to classify people, and try to all look openly to the word.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
If hitler repented and believed he would have been saved,But if it is every single person in the world then Hitler would be saved person, Jack the Ripper also and so forth.
God saved the pharisee saul who slaughtered many christians in the name of his God
God also saved nebechadnezzar, who was as bad if not worse than Hitler.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I'm not sure how God brings a spiritually dead sinner into faith and life. I don't know how He does it or which gift we receive first. The main thing is, we can do absolutely nothing to effect our salvation God does it all we are just passengers along for the ride.
I agree,
But what i do know is he does not make a person alive first, THEN after they are alive, forgive all their sin, justification must come first,
Sometimes we just have to admit, i do not know how God brought that personto christ, i just know he did, and praise God, he gets all the credit
What is it that separates the two you mention here. Both are intelligent people, one chooses to repent and ask God for forgiveness and seeks to follow Christ. The second man chooses to reject the truth and harden their heart.1st off you need to set your pride aside, you will. Ot win any converts being arrogant like this.
Your right, the natural man can not recieve, thats why god has to intervine, and he does, it is called god consciousness, which if God is to be trusted, everyone who ever lives (and is aware of sin) will be brought to hat point,
At this point they have two choices
1. ask and seek, which god said, they will find
2. Reject, hide the truth in their hearts, harden their hearts, and not recieve the truth.
But as paul said, they have no excuse
Why do they choose differently, that's a good question isn't it. I believe the only difference between the two is God gives one the gift of repentance and faith while He leaves the other in their sin.
It has nothing to do with how smart you are, it's all up to God whom He chooses to save
Hitler wasn't given the gift of faith, God left Him in his sin. He was sealed for destruction and there was nothing g he could do about it.If hitler repented and believed he would have been saved,
God saved the pharisee saul who slaughtered many christians in the name of his God
God also saved nebechadnezzar, who was as bad if not worse than Hitler.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
To me, You have this backwards,Belief is a gift from God, and unless He gives you belief you will never repent. So unless God gives the gift of faith and repentance, it is impossible to be saved. It sounds strange but God does force it on those whom He has chosen to give it to, we would never receive it if it was up to us.
As fallen sinners we would never chose to give our lives to Christ and suffer persecution, we would rather enjoy the things of this world. The things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing, they would never accept them unless God changes their hearts before hand.
So the work of salvation is done 100% by God, we don't contribute anything. He does it all, from start to finish
Repent comes first, unless you repent, you will never believe, you will continue to hearden your heart against God.
The pharisee never repented, the disciples in john 6 never repented, thats why they walked away.as jesus said, they do not see because they do not believe.
The tax collector repented, and it brought him to his knees in total humility, Peter and the others did not yet understand, ut they tepented, as peter daid, where are we to go, YOU have the words of eternal life.
I'm sure the Bible says that repentance is a gift from God,it doesn't come from usTo me, You have this backwards,
Repent comes first, unless you repent, you will never believe, you will continue to hearden your heart against God.
The pharisee never repented, the disciples in john 6 never repented, thats why they walked away.as jesus said, they do not see because they do not believe.
The tax collector repented, and it brought him to his knees in total humility, Peter and the others did not yet understand, ut they tepented, as peter daid, where are we to go, YOU have the words of eternal life.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
We did hate God, thats why god sent men across the world to show us our failure and our hate, why he sent the hs to convict us, and why he uses creation to show us we have no excuse.The Bible tells us that we all hated God before He saved us. If we had our way we would hate Him forever, but He had to force His love upon us and change our hearts before we could repent and believe. We would never choose God if we had our own way, so He had to perform a miracle in us to make us accept His love and salvation.
For all have gone astray and none seek after the Lord
We hate god because we want to be god, repentance is what happens when we realise we have failed, and will continue to fail, thats why no matter what i try, my life sucks, thats why god is patient, willing that no one should perish, because if he removed all suffering from earth and gave mankind this great fulfilling life no one would come to him
If you talk to believers you will hear many different testimonies of how god brouht them to faith. And all the things (including pain and suffering for many) which caused them to seek God, and as god promised, if you seek, he will make sure you find. What he does not promise is if you find, you will believe, many find, and never recieve, and eventually walk away, because they had no root.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
God does not force people to do anything, the bible does not teach this, god would not call people to repent if they had no ability to repent, but he does not just call, he also does the worl to help us come to that point, thats why he gets the credit, the glory and the honor (its his work) and we get none,Everybody knows Gods laws, they are written on our hearts. But repentance and salvation are the miraculous works of God and nobody would be saved if He didn't perform the miracle of causing a person to repent and believe. We wouldn't chose Him in a million years because we love our sins more than we love God.
You can say it sll you want, but it will not help you, to me, that gives god a bad name, and makes him a respector of persons,
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Why? I am not a mind reader, niether are you, it is not for us to question why.What is it that separates the two you mention here. Both are intelligent people, one chooses to repent and ask God for forgiveness and seeks to follow Christ. The second man chooses to reject the truth and harden their heart.
Why do they choose differently, that's a good question isn't it. I believe the only difference between the two is God gives one the gift of repentance and faith while He leaves the other in their sin.
It has nothing to do with how smart you are, it's all up to God whom He chooses to save
And no, your reason is not the reason, you just condemned a man to hell who had no opportunity to be saved, which goes against every thing God says about his character,
god can not be called a God of pure love and demand we love our enemies if he does not show that same love by giving all his enemies the opportunity to say yes God, or no God
How can you love your enemies as god said you are to do if god does not love his enemies? He can’t
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
God loved hitler, if he did not, he is a liar, and not to be trusted.Hitler wasn't given the gift of faith, God left Him in his sin. He was sealed for destruction and there was nothing g he could do about it.
Hitler rejected God, because he loved the world and power he had more than god, thats what romans 1 says
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I never said it did, please stop trying to interpret what is say from your point of view and listen to what i am saying,I'm sure the Bible says that repentance is a gift from God,it doesn't come from us
You can not read what i said and determin i think man came to repentance on his own, unless you are reading what i say with preconcieved ideas, period
Those who you describe as having no root are those who God chose to leave in their sins before He laid the foundations of the world. I believe God decided to save people before He even created them and likewise chose not to save other before He created them.We did hate God, thats why god sent men across the world to show us our failure and our hate, why he sent the hs to convict us, and why he uses creation to show us we have no excuse.
We hate god because we want to be god, repentance is what happens when we realise we have failed, and will continue to fail, thats why no matter what i try, my life sucks, thats why god is patient, willing that no one should perish, because if he removed all suffering from earth and gave mankind this great fulfilling life no one would come to him
If you talk to believers you will hear many different testimonies of how god brouht them to faith. And all the things (including pain and suffering for many) which caused them to seek God, and as god promised, if you seek, he will make sure you find. What he does not promise is if you find, you will believe, many find, and never recieve, and eventually walk away, because they had no root.
I also believe that it's impossible to find faith and believe unless it was given to you before you were created.
I don't believe that God loves sinners, I think God hates sinners so much that He casts them into hell to burn forever.God loved hitler, if he did not, he is a liar, and not to be trusted.
Hitler rejected God, because he loved the world and power he had more than god, thats what romans 1 says
God can only love a person who has repented and has been justified by the blood of Jesus, so He only love those who are in Christ.
So those who think that God loves sinners are fooling themselves, why would God create hell to send people who He loves there.
We don't know who Gods enemies are and we don't know who our enemies are. Only God knows, that's why we are commanded to love everyoneWhy? I am not a mind reader, niether are you, it is not for us to question why.
And no, your reason is not the reason, you just condemned a man to hell who had no opportunity to be saved, which goes against every thing God says about his character,
god can not be called a God of pure love and demand we love our enemies if he does not show that same love by giving all his enemies the opportunity to say yes God, or no God
How can you love your enemies as god said you are to do if god does not love his enemies? He can’t
I'm glad to see you agree with meI never said it did, please stop trying to interpret what is say from your point of view and listen to what i am saying,
You can not read what i said and determin i think man came to repentance on his own, unless you are reading what i say with preconcieved ideas, period
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I agree, he did chose to save people before, and how did he determin who would be saved?Those who you describe as having no root are those who God chose to leave in their sins before He laid the foundations of the world. I believe God decided to save people before He even created them and likewise chose not to save other before He created them.
I also believe that it's impossible to find faith and believe unless it was given to you before you were created.
John 6: For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
God chose based on forknowledge, this passage tells us what that forknowledge was.
God did not right down all names of every person who would ever live, then go through that book and chose a few people to save and say screww the rest, they deserve hell anyway, (actually we all do)
yet that is what i used to believe, and what you want me to believe now, i cant any more my friend, i can’t god has shown me Iwas wrong.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
If he hates sinners, then he hates you and he hates me my friend, no one would make it to heaven, because all have sinned and fall short.I don't believe that God loves sinners, I think God hates sinners so much that He casts them into hell to burn forever.
God can only love a person who has repented and has been justified by the blood of Jesus, so He only love those who are in Christ.
So those who think that God loves sinners are fooling themselves, why would God create hell to send people who He loves there.
God created hell for satan and his crew, it was not made for mankind, mankinf just chose freely to join satan there unless they repent
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
God told us to love those who hate us, those who persecute us, those are our enemies, and god told us to love them.We don't know who Gods enemies are and we don't know who our enemies are. Only God knows, that's why we are commanded to love everyone
Matt 5: 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’44 [o]43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; 45 for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your [p]brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the [q]tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
God told us to be perfect as he is, that means he loves his enemy. And i am glad, because i was his enemy at one time, and he saved me while i was yet a sinner