Why so much confusion about salvation?

[MarkWilliams]

Looks like we have a disciple of Calvin after all. Good luck with that.

Sorry Sir, we have a Bible believer. There's no way around election and predestination, if you embrace the scriptures as they were intended to be understood.
I know the pride of fallen men doesn't like the idea that they only contributed a dead sinful corpse to the work of salvation. The scriptures don't leave any room for boasting, so folks twist them so they can get a bit of glory for themselves

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suppose part of the problem is that people have different definitions of what repentence is. I think of it as forsaking sins that you feel convicted about, like reading things I ought not. Sometimes, I am unrepentent about sins- but I am still saved. I don’t believe salvation has anything at all to do with our actions.

I agree, to me repentance is about our thoughts, our beliefs, it s not a feeling (remorse or sorrow) although it can lead to those things, it is basically taking our world, self centered view of life, and agreeing with God, sayls repentance was that he came to the realization the law was not what he thought it was, and he wqs not as righteous as he hought he was, and he needed saved, other people repent when they to realise they are not as good as they think, there is a penalty for ain, and they are guilty, now, what do they do with this? Find religion (works) to attempt to appease a holy God on their own, or find Christ,

The sin issue (personal sins we need to overcome) comes after one is saved when them are empowered bu God and have the help of the Hs,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What about "faith without works is dead" how does that verse fit with actions not having anything to do with salvation. I thought we had to repent everyday, because we sin everyday. Being unrepentant doesn't sound right for a Christian to say

Faith without works is dead, how many works then would be considered a living faith?

If we have t repent every day, are we not any different than a jew following law? Trying to save ourselves?

If you have to repent every dau, i would ask, have uou ever repented at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You said "Savior of all men", "Savior of the whole world", "God would have all men to be saved". I said if that was the case, then God failed didn't He. But I believe you misunderstood those scriptures.

How would god have failed?

He did offer salvation to the whole world, its not his fault people reject him

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry Sir, we have a Bible believer. There's no way around election and predestination, if you embrace the scriptures as they were intended to be understood.
I know the pride of fallen men doesn't like the idea that they only contributed a dead sinful corpse to the work of salvation. The scriptures don't leave any room for boasting, so folks twist them so they can get a bit of glory for themselves

Calvins view of predestination and election is flawed my friend, fatalism is a faulty view

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That view conflicts with many passages of scripture, such as 1. "we are born dead in our sin" how can a dead man choose? 2. " none seek after God, all have gone astray", then we have the book of life and other passages where Jesus describes the lost seeking but not being able to find because god has deliberatley hidden the truth from them.
I can find many verses if needed, I would just need a bit of time.

Romans 1 also says we know we are guilty, we chose to satisfy our lusts and harden our hearts, you need to open up man, and dont be so defensive, your not the first calvinist here, we would like to discuss with you, peacefully as brothers and sisters

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'll post some verses later whichwill leave no doubt about that fact that mankind was born dead in sin. Unless God quickens him, he will remain in his sin and never choose to give his life to God and follow his Son.
God is the author and finisher of our salvation, it is not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

He will remain dead until the sinn issue is resolved.

Thats called justification

We are justified by faith.

Justification comes before new birth, you can not be born again until you are justified, otherwise, your still dead in your sin, because the sin issue is still not resolved between that person and God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My Bible says "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth". That sounds similar to 'He takes no please in the death of the wicked". It sound more like He doesn't enjoy the fact that the wicked will go into a lost eternity, but it doesn't sound like He's going to do anything to stop them either.
I agree it is quite challenging, but I'm no Bible scholar so I would need to hear a few expert views before I could conclude either way.

He wont do anything to stop them, thats free will 101..

and ps, as a non believer, you were part of those wicked until you repented, and chose to have faithin God, if you did.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree, the only thing I would add is that belief is a gift from God. Belief isn't something one attains because he's more clever than the next guy. Since some of the smartest scientists see believers as fools. God gives the gift of faith to the humble and meek and hides is from the proud

Amen, belief is a gift from god, and that gift is offered to all mankind, but will not force anyone to take it,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK, so you're saying Jesus is a failure. Simple as that, He died for the whole world but only a few took up His offer so He was a big let down right!

If god was a dictator, yes, he was a failure, as all dictatorships are, because people do not love dictators

If he was a loving father, no he was not a failure. Because those who have been saved by him love him, and those who reject him would never have loved him to begin with

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, there is a need. It's important that you are confronted with Biblical truth, I don't want to abide in error and neither do you. So lets see what the scriptures say, I will need to spend a few hours researching and then I'll post all of the relevant verses

Same could be said of you, thats why we must be careful before we start bashing on our brothers and sisters concerning this subject,

 

[MarkWilliams]

Amen, belief is a gift from god, and that gift is offered to all mankind, but will not force anyone to take it,

Belief is a gift from God, and unless He gives you belief you will never repent. So unless God gives the gift of faith and repentance, it is impossible to be saved. It sounds strange but God does force it on those whom He has chosen to give it to, we would never receive it if it was up to us.
As fallen sinners we would never chose to give our lives to Christ and suffer persecution, we would rather enjoy the things of this world. The things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing, they would never accept them unless God changes their hearts before hand.
So the work of salvation is done 100% by God, we don't contribute anything. He does it all, from start to finish

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The natural man does not receive the things of God, for they are foolishness to him. I'm just going of memory here so bare with me, Ill get the big guns out later.
I will lose none of those which the Father has given me, He should have said i will lose none of those in the world. I could go on but I'll come back at a later time with a sharp sword.

Thats why god convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, and why as paul said in romans one they are without excuse, because they know,, because god does the work of letting them know.

He will not force anyone to recieve his offer of forgiveness,

Remember we are talking about the gospel her, not doctrines which only the church can understand,

 

[MarkWilliams]

If god was a dictator, yes, he was a failure, as all dictatorships are, because people do not love dictators

If he was a loving father, no he was not a failure. Because those who have been saved by him love him, and those who reject him would never have loved him to begin with

The Bible tells us that we all hated God before He saved us. If we had our way we would hate Him forever, but He had to force His love upon us and change our hearts before we could repent and believe. We would never choose God if we had our own way, so He had to perform a miracle in us to make us accept His love and salvation.
For all have gone astray and none seek after the Lord

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Belief is a gift from God, and unless He gives you belief you will never repent. So unless God gives the gift of faith and repentance, it is impossible to be saved. It sounds strange but God does force it on those whom He has chosen to give it to, we would never receive it if it was up to us.
As fallen sinners we would never chose to give our lives to Christ and suffer persecution, we would rather enjoy the things of this world. The things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing, they would never accept them unless God changes their hearts before hand.
So the work of salvation is done 100% by God, we don't contribute anything. He does it all, from start to finish

IT sounds strange because it is strange. GOD doesn't force himself on anyone. It is written that he leads people who hunger and thirst for righteousness to Christ. They choose to believe in him because it is what they have been looking for.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I beg to differ, it sounds to me like a dead man can do nothing to effect his salvation. I'm sure there are other passages that give even more credence to TULIP

Thats funny, abraham chose to believe god while he was dead, and god accredited it to him as righteousness.

Your confusing dead, as in physical death, where you can. Ot chose right or wrong, with spiritual death, where you can chose, and God can convict you of sin righteousness and judgment.

One who is dead in sin is dead UNTIL he is accredited with gods righteousness, which is called justification

We are justified by faith. until that moment we are justified, are dead, god will not revive to life a person who is still dead in sin, 5ey must be justified first,

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Bible tells us that we all hated God before He saved us. If we had our way we would hate Him forever, but He had to force His love upon us and change our hearts before we could repent and believe. We would never choose God if we had our own way, so He had to perform a miracle in us to make us accept His love and salvation.
For all have gone astray and none seek after the Lord

Not my experience at all. I was looking for GOD, but my blindness of heart kept me from seeing who he was. He simply opened my eyes and gave me understanding.

 

[MarkWilliams]

Thats why god convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, and why as paul said in romans one they are without excuse, because they know,, because god does the work of letting them know.

He will not force anyone to recieve his offer of forgiveness,

Remember we are talking about the gospel her, not doctrines which only the church can understand,

Everybody knows Gods laws, they are written on our hearts. But repentance and salvation are the miraculous works of God and nobody would be saved if He didn't perform the miracle of causing a person to repent and believe. We wouldn't chose Him in a million years because we love our sins more than we love God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The natural man does not receive the things of God, for they are foolishness to him. I'm just going of memory here so bare with me, Ill get the big guns out later.
I will lose none of those which the Father has given me, He should have said i will lose none of those in the world. I could go on but I'll come back at a later time with a sharp sword.

1st off you need to set your pride aside, you will. Ot win any converts being arrogant like this.

Your right, the natural man can not recieve, thats why god has to intervine, and he does, it is called god consciousness, which if God is to be trusted, everyone who ever lives (and is aware of sin) will be brought to hat point,

At this point they have two choices

1. ask and seek, which god said, they will find

2. Reject, hide the truth in their hearts, harden their hearts, and not recieve the truth.

But as paul said, they have no excuse

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2889 [e] kosmou κόσμου. world. N-GMS

kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Amen and remember also, the kosmos is satans domain, as he is the ruler of this kosmos..

so when he says he loves the world he says he loves all who are enslaved by satans domain.