Why so much confusion about salvation?

[MarkWilliams]

You are ignoring the fact that God gave man free will. Men can actually CHOOSE whether they want to believe the gospel and become saved or not. If they choose not to believe, there is nothing God can do about it.

That view conflicts with many passages of scripture, such as 1. "we are born dead in our sin" how can a dead man choose? 2. " none seek after God, all have gone astray", then we have the book of life and other passages where Jesus describes the lost seeking but not being able to find because god has deliberatley hidden the truth from them.
I can find many verses if needed, I would just need a bit of time.

 

[Magenta]

If He meant the whole world then I don't believe Him, because He failed since the majority are going to hell

You said "Savior of all men", "Savior of the whole world", "God would have all men to be saved". I said if that was the case, then God failed didn't He. But I believe you misunderstood those scriptures.

Repentance is necessary, and salvation is contingent upon it. You really ought not to call God a failure

 

[shrume]

That view conflicts with many passages of scripture, such as 1. "we are born dead in our sin" how can a dead man choose?

By hearing the gospel, and choosing to believe it.

Deut 30:
19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Calvinists take being "dead" too far.

2. " none seek after God, all have gone astray",

ALL of us fall short.

then we have the book of life and other passages where Jesus describes the lost seeking but not being able to find because god has deliberatley hidden the truth from them.

If God literally did that, then He is duplicitous and cannot be trusted, nor can we trust the Bible.

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I can find many verses if needed, I would just need a bit of time.

I know most of the verses Calvinists use to support their doctrine...

 

[MarkWilliams]

Repentance is necessary, and salvation is contingent upon it. You really ought not to call God a failure

If you scroll up, you will see I was asking the other guy if God failed in his opinion. Because he claimed that God tried to save the whole world. We know that God didn't try to save the whole world, because if He did it would make Him a failure. I'm glad I cleared that up

 

[shrume]

If you scroll up, you will see I was asking the other guy if God failed in his opinion. Because he claimed that God tried to save the whole world. We know that God didn't try to save the whole world, because if He did it would make Him a failure. I'm glad I cleared that up

Here is God's will regarding salvation:

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The fact that not all people will be saved is not God "failing", it is due to men's willful rejection of Him.

 

[MarkWilliams]

By hearing the gospel, and choosing to believe it.

Deut 30:
19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Calvinists take being "dead" too far.


ALL of us fall short.


If God literally did that, then He is duplicitous and cannot be trusted, nor can we trust the Bible.

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


I know most of the verses Calvinists use to support their doctrine...

I'll post some verses later whichwill leave no doubt about that fact that mankind was born dead in sin. Unless God quickens him, he will remain in his sin and never choose to give his life to God and follow his Son.
God is the author and finisher of our salvation, it is not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

 

[dcontroversal]

You said "Savior of all men", "Savior of the whole world", "God would have all men to be saved". I said if that was the case, then God failed didn't He. But I believe you misunderstood those scriptures.

No I did not miss understand it.....God is fair and he is the savior of the whole world and of ALL MEN....but they MUST believe in order to be saved....not that difficult to understand.....just like the scripture..there s NO other name given among men .....HE is the only savior and it is open to all men....but only those who will believe....

 

[Magenta]

If you scroll up, you will see I was asking the other guy if God failed in his opinion. Because he claimed that God tried to save the whole world. We know that God didn't try to save the whole world, because if He did it would make Him a failure. I'm glad I cleared that up

Here you are again giving concrete opinions on that which you are apparently ignorant of. Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world, or not? Scripture says yes. You say no... very clearly.

 

[MarkWilliams]

Here is God's will regarding salvation:

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The fact that not all people will be saved is not God "failing", it is due to men's willful rejection of Him.

My Bible says "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth". That sounds similar to 'He takes no please in the death of the wicked". It sound more like He doesn't enjoy the fact that the wicked will go into a lost eternity, but it doesn't sound like He's going to do anything to stop them either.
I agree it is quite challenging, but I'm no Bible scholar so I would need to hear a few expert views before I could conclude either way.

 

[MarkWilliams]

No I did not miss understand it.....God is fair and he is the savior of the whole world and of ALL MEN....but they MUST believe in order to be saved....not that difficult to understand.....just like the scripture..there s NO other name given among men .....HE is the only savior and it is open to all men....but only those who will believe....

I agree, the only thing I would add is that belief is a gift from God. Belief isn't something one attains because he's more clever than the next guy. Since some of the smartest scientists see believers as fools. God gives the gift of faith to the humble and meek and hides is from the proud

 

[shrume]

I'll post some verses later whichwill leave no doubt about that fact that mankind was born dead in sin.

No need, Mark. The Bible is clear that all men are born dead in sin. That does not mean he cannot choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and become saved.

Unless God quickens him, he will remain in his sin and never choose to give his life to God and follow his Son.

God quickens people when they believe, not before.

God is the author and finisher of our salvation, it is not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

You are combining verses... Heb 12:2 and Eph 2:8-9.

Neither one say that God is responsible for making men believe.

 

[MarkWilliams]

Here you are again giving concrete opinions on that which you are apparently ignorant of. Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world, or not? Scripture says yes. You say no... very clearly.

OK, so you're saying Jesus is a failure. Simple as that, He died for the whole world but only a few took up His offer so He was a big let down right!

 

[shrume]

My Bible says "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth". That sounds similar to 'He takes no please in the death of the wicked". It sound more like He doesn't enjoy the fact that the wicked will go into a lost eternity, but it doesn't sound like He's going to do anything to stop them either.

What can He do? God wants people to believe, but He cannot make people believe. He honors their choice.

I agree it is quite challenging, but I'm no Bible scholar so I would need to hear a few expert views before I could conclude either way.

You will find "experts" on both sides of the argument. This debate has been raging for centuries.

 

[MarkWilliams]

No need, Mark. The Bible is clear that all men are born dead in sin. That does not mean he cannot choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and become saved.


God quickens people when they believe, not before.


You are combining verses... Heb 12:2 and Eph 2:8-9.

Neither one say that God is responsible for making men believe.

No, there is a need. It's important that you are confronted with Biblical truth, I don't want to abide in error and neither do you. So lets see what the scriptures say, I will need to spend a few hours researching and then I'll post all of the relevant verses

 

[shrume]

I agree, the only thing I would add is that belief is a gift from God.

No it isn't. Salvation by faith is the gift of God. God requires of us about the least thing he could: faith in Jesus Christ.

God does not give the capacity to believe to some people but withholds it from others.

Belief isn't something one attains because he's more clever than the next guy. Since some of the smartest scientists see believers as fools.

Cleverness has nothing to do with it.

God gives the gift of faith to the humble and meek and hides is from the proud

Faith is not a gift. The gift is salvation, given when people choose to have faith.

 

[Ralph-]

"we are born dead in our sin" how can a dead man choose?

Inherent in the voice of the Holy Spirit is the ability to know what you're hearing is the truth about the gospel. From that revelation men either choose to not believe, casting that word behind them, or choose to believe and are justified.

"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
...the testimony of God (the testimony of the Holy Spirit) is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
...the one who does not believe God (the testimony of the Holy Spirit) has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. "-1 John 5:6,9,10

In short, the ability to choose comes with hearing the gospel message. Faith comes by hearing the message.

"17So faith (the ability to know the unseen gospel is true-Hebrews 11:1) comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. "-Romans 10:17

What a person does from there is up to them. Some retain the faith to know the gospel is true and they place their trust in it and are saved. Most reject the faith (the ability) that God has given to know the gospel is true and are lost.

 

[MarkWilliams]

Here you are again giving concrete opinions on that which you are apparently ignorant of. Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world, or not? Scripture says yes. You say no... very clearly.

That's right, I don't believe that Jesus died for the whole world. He said Himself that He died for "many", not all.
If He died for all, then he failed in His mission to save the whole world.

 

[shrume]

No, there is a need. It's important that you are confronted with Biblical truth, I don't want to abide in error and neither do you. So lets see what the scriptures say, I will need to spend a few hours researching and then I'll post all of the relevant verses

Here's the scripture regarding being born dead in sin:

Eph 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Being born dead in sin does not mean we cannot choose to believe on Jesus Christ.

 

[shrume]

That's right, I don't believe that Jesus died for the whole world.

1 John 2:
2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He said Himself that He died for "many", not all.
If He died for all, then he failed in His mission to save the whole world.

Once again, you are leaving out man's free will.

 

[MarkWilliams]

No it isn't. Salvation by faith is the gift of God. God requires of us about the least thing he could: faith in Jesus Christ.

God does not give the capacity to believe to some people but withholds it from others.


Cleverness has nothing to do with it.


Faith is not a gift. The gift is salvation, given when people choose to have faith.

The natural man does not receive the things of God, for they are foolishness to him. I'm just going of memory here so bare with me, Ill get the big guns out later.
I will lose none of those which the Father has given me, He should have said i will lose none of those in the world. I could go on but I'll come back at a later time with a sharp sword.