Loss of salvation.
- Thread starter BillG
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
i posted the words from the hyergrace leader himself so you can show me from his own words where he got it wrong, and you refuse to back your words, and show me, just expect me to take your word for it.
and you still say i have not used scripture. When i have,
Again, what a joke.
if you can not back up yur accusations against people, keep them to yourself, bearing false witness is a prety serious sin.
and you still say i have not used scripture. When i have,
Again, what a joke.
if you can not back up yur accusations against people, keep them to yourself, bearing false witness is a prety serious sin.
R
I'm not surprised that you did not see it. Not surprised at all.
In that verse Jesus said that kind of person believes for a while, but then falls away when trouble comes.
Of course, the once saved always saved solution to make it not mean a person who believes can fall away is to say that person didn't really believe.
Of course this is true. But this in no way negates what I said.
People really do fall out of love with God and go back to the world. Not strong, well grounded believers. Weak believers are the one's that get picked off from among us. That's why it's important that we grow up in our salvation and the word becomes deeply rooted in our hearts. That is where you're salvation is the safest. Safest, not because there is some lack in Christ's work along the way to maturity, but safest because it is in mature, strong faith that we are standing the firmest in the sure and infallible work of Christ's ministry and can not be shaken.
In that verse Jesus said that kind of person believes for a while, but then falls away when trouble comes.
Of course, the once saved always saved solution to make it not mean a person who believes can fall away is to say that person didn't really believe.
Of course this is true. But this in no way negates what I said.
People really do fall out of love with God and go back to the world. Not strong, well grounded believers. Weak believers are the one's that get picked off from among us. That's why it's important that we grow up in our salvation and the word becomes deeply rooted in our hearts. That is where you're salvation is the safest. Safest, not because there is some lack in Christ's work along the way to maturity, but safest because it is in mature, strong faith that we are standing the firmest in the sure and infallible work of Christ's ministry and can not be shaken.
You say it's not a lack of Christ's work, but when I point out that God is author of our faith, our love, and our desire to follow Him, you put it back on man. But Paul says we are perfected by the Spirit not the flesh. And unfortunately, you seem to me to be taking other Scriptures out of context to disprove these simple Scriptures.
And as far as your Scripture I sincerely think you're quoting the wrong Scripture.
Matt 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that moment.
And as far as your Scripture I sincerely think you're quoting the wrong Scripture.
Matt 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that moment.
R
Freegrace and Hypergrace are the same.
Obviously, Perseverance of the Saints is not Hypergrace, that goes without saying. Perseverance of the saints is the 'P' in Calvinism's TULIP. Which is diametrically opposed to the Hypergrace/Freegrace doctrine of 'once saved always saved'.
I got my facts right from Hypergrace/Freegrace adherants (who, by the way, do not make the distinction between the two names). I would not have posted the link if it did not match what they told me they believed.
Of course, if I posted direct quotes from them then I'd be criticized for not having some outside source for what Hypergrace/Freegrace doctrine believes.
Obviously, Perseverance of the Saints is not Hypergrace, that goes without saying. Perseverance of the saints is the 'P' in Calvinism's TULIP. Which is diametrically opposed to the Hypergrace/Freegrace doctrine of 'once saved always saved'.
I got my facts right from Hypergrace/Freegrace adherants (who, by the way, do not make the distinction between the two names). I would not have posted the link if it did not match what they told me they believed.
Of course, if I posted direct quotes from them then I'd be criticized for not having some outside source for what Hypergrace/Freegrace doctrine believes.
R
Actually, what I'm doing is not excluding man.
Of course, nothing at all happens without God. But that hardly means we don't have anything to do whatsoever with what God does in our hearts. I mean, look at the Parable of the Sower. God could only do what the soil could support. But that hardly has to mean then that the soil must be doing it all by itself.
How are you getting out of what I'm saying that somehow we perfect ourselves, except that you have been trained to always hear any and all arguments against once saved always saved as the person is saving and perfecting himself. You have to get out of your doctrinal box and start honestly seeing why people believe what they do that is different than what you believe.
I'm issuing an open challenge to you to address any 'once saved always saved' scripture you have. I will show you that you have simply not had your eyes opened to the fact that it is possible for them to not be the once saved always saved scriptures you think they are without them then being false. I will show you that they can still be true without them having to be once saved always saved scriptures.
Lol, my bad. You're right, I meant LUKE 8:13.
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
I started to fetch the Matthew version of the second type of soil but realized that it is in the Luke version where Jesus specifically says that type two soil believed for a while. I forgot to change the book reference when I changed the chapter and verse reference. Thank you for taking the time to reference the verse. I mean that. Thank you.
Last edited by a moderator:
R
It's in dispute. 'Again' may be 'from above' in John 3:3,7.
I go with 'again' because that's how Nicodemus understood it:
"He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?"-John 3:4
Go easy on HeRose, it really is in dispute, but as I'm showing the context shows that the correct translation/interpretation/source is 'again'.
I go with 'again' because that's how Nicodemus understood it:
"He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?"-John 3:4
Go easy on HeRose, it really is in dispute, but as I'm showing the context shows that the correct translation/interpretation/source is 'again'.
Luke 8:13 “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
I figured this is where you were going, okay so, on this Scripture He says they did believe, but Jesus also says they have rocks in the heart. And no firm root. So it didn't go into the heart. I don't feel like this person is a true believer. Maybe a believer in the mind, but Scripture says those who believe in their heart. Especially when I consider the whole of Scripture. My stance is simple, I believe in the power of God to transform us. Scripture says we fell from glory, which means we were originally created to follow after Him. Yet the enemy deceived us, he blinds the minds of unbelievers. We don't fight flesh and blood, but spiritual principalities and powers. When we enter into the Kingdom of Light, we are set free, we discover in Christ all the things we once thought we needed to get through darkness and corruption. It's anchored in the realities of love vs fear, but love never fails. And God is love and He never fails.
And I'm open to inspecting my doctrinal boxes, that's how I got to where I am today. I didn't one day believe these things, I studied them for myself. I was probably one of the biggest legalists you ever met, but it was all out of fear and trying to keep myself "holy" before God. And the Holy Spirit started to show me the more excellent way, the way of love. I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right, because I believe Truth is a Person and we all have different revelations of Him. So I don't need to convince people to believe like me. But when you say, I don't have an open doctrinal box, but I've been "taught to believe" etc, etc. I don't agree.
Especially since I've continually in these threads given countess Scriptures, analyzed context, and answered tough Scriptures that appear to come against my stances. I don't ignore them, I address them. I noticed you do this quite often as well, so at the very least I do feel like you're a seeker of truth. But I am also. Anyways, great discussion so far, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
C.
I figured this is where you were going, okay so, on this Scripture He says they did believe, but Jesus also says they have rocks in the heart. And no firm root. So it didn't go into the heart. I don't feel like this person is a true believer. Maybe a believer in the mind, but Scripture says those who believe in their heart. Especially when I consider the whole of Scripture. My stance is simple, I believe in the power of God to transform us. Scripture says we fell from glory, which means we were originally created to follow after Him. Yet the enemy deceived us, he blinds the minds of unbelievers. We don't fight flesh and blood, but spiritual principalities and powers. When we enter into the Kingdom of Light, we are set free, we discover in Christ all the things we once thought we needed to get through darkness and corruption. It's anchored in the realities of love vs fear, but love never fails. And God is love and He never fails.
And I'm open to inspecting my doctrinal boxes, that's how I got to where I am today. I didn't one day believe these things, I studied them for myself. I was probably one of the biggest legalists you ever met, but it was all out of fear and trying to keep myself "holy" before God. And the Holy Spirit started to show me the more excellent way, the way of love. I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right, because I believe Truth is a Person and we all have different revelations of Him. So I don't need to convince people to believe like me. But when you say, I don't have an open doctrinal box, but I've been "taught to believe" etc, etc. I don't agree.
Especially since I've continually in these threads given countess Scriptures, analyzed context, and answered tough Scriptures that appear to come against my stances. I don't ignore them, I address them. I noticed you do this quite often as well, so at the very least I do feel like you're a seeker of truth. But I am also. Anyways, great discussion so far, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
C.
Last edited:
Most of what I teach comes from my personal relationship with Holy Spirit and Scripture. I'm fluent in Scripture, not hyper-grace teachings. I always have Scripture to support what I believe. I don't just listen to other people and make it up. You have your viewpoints which I believe are not completely Scriptural, but I'm not going to tell you that you're influenced by someone else. What you believe is what you believe. I think you're way off base, but that's okay, God gave you free will and a unique understanding than I have.
Jesus wasn't, simply in the next verse Jesus explains what born again means.
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
You can't simply ignore context because you don't like what it teaches. I have shown you at least 5 different ways about being born again, a new creation, and many more, but you don't seem to want to see it. And I don't at all agree with your viewpoint. So I don't see life in this anymore. So, let's agree to disagree.
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
You can't simply ignore context because you don't like what it teaches. I have shown you at least 5 different ways about being born again, a new creation, and many more, but you don't seem to want to see it. And I don't at all agree with your viewpoint. So I don't see life in this anymore. So, let's agree to disagree.
Last edited:
R
The seed not going into the soil is soil #1. In soil #2 the seed did go into the heart and started to grow ("it grew up"-Luke 8:6). That shows us it did have some root, just not firm, or deep root, because it withered quickly when trouble and temptation came. That's a picture of the weak believer, not someone who didn't have any faith and is only faking it. As I say, no faith is signified in soil #1.
Soil #1: no faith (the word is not present)
Soil #2: weak faith (the word is not deeply rooted in the person)
Soil #3: fruitless faith (the word is being choked out, but not uprooted by the cares of life--perhaps 90% of the church, IMO)
Soil #4: strong, fruitful, persevering faith (the word goes deep and the soil is rich and free of weeds)
Expand your thinking.
Not agreeing with 'once saved always saved' does not automatically and without exception make a person a legalist. You have to stop thinking that a person can only be trying to earn their own salvation if they don't agree with once saved always saved. What non-OSAS means to people like me and chester is the believer can stop believing. It has nothing to do with us thinking that we somehow have to work works of righteousness to continue to earn salvation. You have to be willing to open your doctrinal box up to be able to understand that not all non-OSAS arguments mean a person has to earn their salvation.
Let's look at any or all of your proof texts for once saved always saved and I will show you that it is not impossible that they can only mean 'once saved always saved'. People think to make their scripture passages not mean once saved always saved is to make them not true. I will show you how they can not mean once saved always saved and still be true. You will be surprised to encounter thinking and legitimate ways of looking at them that simply never entered your mind before. And never entered your mind because you've been limited by a doctrinal box.
Thank you for your civil and gracious participation. I agree, good discussion.