Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[graceNpeace]

We must obey God, meaning our salvation depends on it. Our obedience does not earn it, but God chooses to give it to those who obey. You agree, do you not, that wide is the gate that leads to hell and most people enter through it, correct? So you agree that there is a difference between saved people and unsaved people, right? What is that difference? That difference is obedience. You say "No, it is faith." But faith is obedience (one of the things to obey). Therefore, by saying you must have faith you yourself are saying you must obey.

Wow!
Anyone who really believes this is just so ignorant of the Gospel, yet is so sure of themselves...
Hard to know how to respond to this apart from just saying, "You are wrong!"

Violates clear Scripture like this "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:1-10

 

[OneFaith]

So, all you have done is turned the definition of grace on its head...
Not to mention the rather obvious contradiction....

Perhaps a course in logic would be in order![/QUOTE)

It is not a contradiction because our obedience cannot earn grace. Just like wearing a yellow shirt cannot earn a mansion, but if there was a rich man giving away mansions to those wearing yellow shirts, then I need to wear a yellow shirt if I want a mansion. God does not give grace to everyone, so what is His deciding factor? He chooses to give grace to those who obey Him- just like the rich man chooses to give mansions to those wearing yellow shirts- it is not earned, it is simply his deciding factor. Go to him wearing a blue shirt and he'll say no, go to God with no obedience and he'll say no. Being obedient even unto death does not erase even one sin, but if we are not obedient even onto death God will not give us grace.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

romans 5
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

--------------

Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

------------------------

romans 10

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above


-------------------
John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




Im sure glad it is by faith I am made righteous by the obedience of Jesus.

"by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous"

praise God

i believe to say a born again believer hasnt been made new is a ridiculous claim.....

if "whatever they want" means to live feeding your fleshly lusts this doesnt sound like someone who recieved a new heart or quickened spirit to begin with


Gods children want to obey Him

if they fail they have an advocate

failing would mean they desire righteousness

not selfish pleasures


sin is something you dont excuse or justify as a child of God

but we hate sin and wish to be delivered from it


that being said

your performance or walk doesnt add too
or take away

from the gift of salvation


1 sin
2 sins
50 sins doesnt make a new creature any less saved


the same way

1 work
2 works
50 works doesnt make any man even slightly more justified


we are saved by grace through faith apart from the law or works


UNTO good works

Isaiah 43:25 - I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins

 

[mailmandan]

We must obey God, meaning our salvation depends on it.

We must obey God by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Our salvation depends on that. There is a difference between obeying God in order to become saved (John 6:40) and obeying God after we have been saved through faith/by choosing to believe the gospel.

Our obedience does not earn it, but God chooses to give it to those who obey.

Obeying God by choosing to believe the gospel does not earn salvation. We are simply accepting the free gift. Multiple acts of obedience/works which follow choosing to believe the gospel would earn it if we were saved by works.

You agree, do you not, that wide is the gate that leads to hell and most people enter through it, correct? So you agree that there is a difference between saved people and unsaved people, right?

Absolutely. Most people refuse to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

What is that difference? That difference is obedience.

Jesus explained the difference. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You say "No, it is faith." But faith is obedience (one of the things to obey). Therefore, by saying you must have faith you yourself are saying you must obey.

Faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. Faith/believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through faith/believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption - (Romans 3:24-26).

If multiple acts of obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ were the basis or means by which we received eternal life, then that would add merit on our part for receiving salvation because then we would be saved through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption "plus our works." So faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works.

 

[Ralph-]

Been here 5 yrs and the ONLY people I have EVER heard say that sin doesn't matter, that we can live any way we want, or get drunk every day, is those who do not believe they are yet children of God...

Then you haven't been paying attention.

You are literally saying you have not ever in five years known anyone here who has been a believer in hyper/freegrace doctrine.

 

[OneFaith]

Wow!
Anyone who really believes this is just so ignorant of the Gospel, yet is so sure of themselves...
Hard to know how to respond to this apart from just saying, "You are wrong!"

Violates clear Scripture like this "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:1-10

You say 'those in Christ', how do we get in Christ if not by obeying the gospel? (Romans 6:3). And what happens to those who do not obey the gospel? "With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengence on those who know not God and who obey not the gospel of His son." Does obedience in this verse determine salvation from the flames of hell? Yes it does! Obedience does not earn salvation, it is simply God's deciding factor on who He gives it to. He does not give grace to the worldly because they are not in Christ, and you cannot get in Christ without obeying. All the obedience in the world cannot earn salvation, but it will not be given to those who do not obey.

 

[OneFaith]

We must obey God by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Our salvation depends on that. There is a difference between obeying God in order to become saved (John 6:40) and obeying God after we have been saved through faith/by choosing to believe the gospel.

Obeying God by choosing to believe the gospel does not earn salvation. We are simply accepting the free gift. Multiple acts of obedience/works which follow choosing to believe the gospel would earn it if we were saved by works.

Absolutely. Most people refuse to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Jesus explained the difference. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. Faith/believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through faith/believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption - (Romans 3:24-26).

If multiple acts of obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ were the basis or means by which we received eternal life, then that would add merit on our part for receiving salvation because then we would be saved through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption "plus our works." So faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works.

Those who have not ears to hear and eyes to see will not accept the plain and simple truth presented right in front of them.

 

[mailmandan]

Those who have not ears to hear and eyes to see will not accept the plain and simple truth presented right in front of them.

As you have just proven.

 

[Ralph-]

Hebrews 10:26 does not teach they were saved but are saved no longer. In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Hey, Budman.......are you paying attention?

Hebrews 10:26 (AMP) - For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate].

You do fine with this passage until you get to the 'sanctified' part in verse 29.

The chapter literally defines 'sanctified' as saved people in vs. 10 and 14, but all of a sudden once saved always saved says it doesn't really mean that in vs. 26. That creative redefining is done with the intent of stripping the passage of it's very obvious and plain NOT once saved always saved meaning. Even once saved always saved realizes something has to be done to it so it doesn't teach non-once saved always saved.

(Remember, this is a thread about why people are so adamant about this 'once saved always saved' thing instead of what really counts in the Christian faith)

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You say 'those in Christ', how do we get in Christ if not by obeying the gospel? (Romans 6:3). And what happens to those who do not obey the gospel? "With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengence on those who know not God and who obey not the gospel of His son." Does obedience in this verse determine salvation from the flames of hell? Yes it does! Obedience does not earn salvation, it is simply God's deciding factor on who He gives it to. He does not give grace to the worldly because they are not in Christ, and you cannot get in Christ without obeying. All the obedience in the world cannot earn salvation, but it will not be given to those who do not obey.

It sounds like you can't make up your mind what you believe.

 

[mailmandan]

You do fine with this passage until you get to the 'sanctified' part in verse 29.

The chapter literally defines 'sanctified' as saved people in vs. 10 and 14, but all of a sudden once saved always saved says it doesn't really mean that in vs. 26. That creative redefining is done with the intent of stripping the passage of it's very obvious and plain NOT once saved always saved meaning. Even once saved always saved realizes something has to be done to it so it doesn't teach non-once saved always saved.

(Remember, this is a thread about why people are so adamant about this 'once saved always saved' thing instead of what really counts in the Christian faith)

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart."

If the word "sanctified" simply meant “saved,” then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) which does not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has renounced his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community was merely superficial (nominal Christian) and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[preacher4truth]

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29

The reference, Hebrews 10:29, is speaking of Christ not persons.

"Son of God"..."by which he was sanctified." The he refers to Christ, or technically "Son of God" contextually.

 

[PennEd]

Then you haven't been paying attention.

You are literally saying you have not ever in five years known anyone here who has been a believer in hyper/freegrace doctrine.

Depends on what YOUR definition of "HyperGrace" is.

If it means ALL of my sins are forgiven, for ALL of time, paid for by Jesus Christ, with me doing NOTHING to maintain becoming a born again child of God through faith in His Son, ​THEN PENCIL ME IN AS A HYPERGRACER!

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen ... One sacrifice to pay the debt in full.

Depends on what YOUR definition of "HyperGrace" is.

If it means ALL of my sins are forgiven, for ALL of time, paid for by Jesus Christ, with me doing NOTHING to maintain becoming a born again child of God through faith in His Son, ​THEN PENCIL ME IN AS A HYPERGRACER!

 

[PennEd]

So, all you have done is turned the definition of grace on its head...
Not to mention the rather obvious contradiction....

Perhaps a course in logic would be in order![/QUOTE) ​BY ONEFAITH

It is not a contradiction because our obedience cannot earn grace. Just like wearing a yellow shirt cannot earn a mansion, but if there was a rich man giving away mansions to those wearing yellow shirts, then I need to wear a yellow shirt if I want a mansion. God does not give grace to everyone, so what is His deciding factor? He chooses to give grace to those who obey Him- just like the rich man chooses to give mansions to those wearing yellow shirts- it is not earned, it is simply his deciding factor. Go to him wearing a blue shirt and he'll say no, go to God with no obedience and he'll say no. Being obedient even unto death does not erase even one sin, but if we are not obedient even onto death God will not give us grace.

God gives Grace to those that are born again.

Whether you are wearing a yellow shirt, mowing the guys lawn, giving him cash, it is ALL YOU working to get that mansion.

 

[Ralph-]

Depends on what YOUR definition of "HyperGrace" is.

If it means ALL of my sins are forgiven, for ALL of time, paid for by Jesus Christ, with me doing NOTHING to maintain becoming a born again child of God through faith in His Son, ​THEN PENCIL ME IN AS A HYPERGRACER!

This is what it means. I posted this earlier in this thread:

The Free Grace doctrine views the person's character and life after receiving the gift of salvation as independent from the gift itself, which is the main point of differentiation from the traditional Calvinist view, or, in other words, it asserts that justification (that is, being declared righteous before God on account of Christ) does not necessarily result in sanctification (that is, a progressively more righteous life). Charles Stanley, pastor of Atlanta's megachurch First Baptist and a television evangelist, has written that the doctrine of eternal security of the believer persuaded him years ago to leave his familial Pentecostalism and become a Southern Baptist. He sums up his deep conviction that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone when he claims, "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints#Free_Grace_doctrine



This horrible doctrine has crept in unawares into the church, just as the Bible says it did before:


"...I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."-Jude 1:3-4


Even hard core Calvinists have not noticed this 'new' once saved always saved doctrine emerging in the church. It seems to slip the notice of them simply because of it's 'once saved always saved' label. The thinking seems to be 'if it believes in once saved always saved then it's good', not realizing it completely and utterly contradicts their traditional Calvinist doctrine.

There have been some here at cc who openly admit to believing this very doctrine. I don't know how you could have missed that. But as I point out, it has crept into the church unawares. Even right under the nose of hardcore Calvinists who will 'like' their posts seeming not to realize it is diametrically opposed to their doctrine.

 

[notuptome]

The reference, Hebrews 10:29, is speaking of Christ not persons.

"Son of God"..."by which he was sanctified." The he refers to Christ, or technically "Son of God" contextually.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Speaking of those who have heard and rejected the grace of God. Speaking of those who count self righteousness equal or superior to the righteousness of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PennEd]

This is what it means. I posted in earlier in this thread:




There have been some here at cc who openly admit to believing this very doctrine. I don't know how you could have missed that. But as I point out, it has crept into the church unawares. Even right under the nose of hardcore Calvinists who will 'like' their posts.

This is a non-issue: Here's why.

Matthew 7:17-20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [a]know them by their fruits.


The problem is YOU want to define what is a good fruit, and how it manifests itself.

I can know for 100% certain that my sons are my sons by testing their DNA. We have Christs DNA if we are born again.

You need to ask the right question. The question is NOT "Can you lose your salvation". The ONLY question that matters is, "Are you born again?"

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Depends on what YOUR definition of "HyperGrace" is.

If it means ALL of my sins are forgiven, for ALL of time, paid for by Jesus Christ, with me doing NOTHING to maintain becoming a born again child of God through faith in His Son, ​THEN PENCIL ME IN AS A HYPERGRACER!

IMO you're just trying to confuse the issue for some reason. HG is defined by some very specific doctrinal stances, some of which I doubt that you agree with.

 

[PennEd]

IMO you're just trying to confuse the issue for some reason. HG is defined by some very specific doctrinal stances, some of which I doubt that you agree with.

I'm not confusing anything. Defining what it means is important. If it means what I posted then I'm a hypergracer. If people are throwing in the prosperity gospel on top of that, then I'm not a hypergracer.