Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[Ralph-]

Beating a dead horse never helped anyone.

Oh, I don't know. I wouldn't reject doing that altogether in every situation. (But surely the 'Not By Works' thread is a cesspool of demonic activity that as of a few months ago had nothing godly or useful happening in it. That is a haunt for demons.)


I've learned from people who I disagreed with when suddenly something they said struck a chord deep inside of me and eventually I adopted things they had said into my doctrinal views.

 

[Ralph-]

This entire BDF constantly focuses on the subject. Both sides. And you, as a regular, active member here fall into that.
Once again the attempt to trash and accuse OSAS believers. More character revelation. And missing the hypocrisy in such statements.

I don't focus on it. And if you have noticed, I try to get believers to NOT focus on it.

I want to see defeated Christians stop accepting their defeat in the name of 'once saved always saved' and see them focus on deliverance and healing and victory in a changed and changing life in the power of the Holy Spirit. That is what counts. But it seems like most Christians think Christianity and sharing the gospel is all about 'once saved always saved'. No it's not! It's about growing up into Christ, and helping others do that too.

 

[Ralph-]

Ugly,

(Timed out, here's what I wanted to add to my post)

I'm the one who's been saying it doesn't matter if you get to the Judgment and you are condemned as an unbeliever because you never believed to begin with, or because you lost your salvation along the way. Either way YOU'RE STILL GOING TO BE CONDEMNED. Once saved always saved is a meaningless doctrine.

It almost seems like believing the gospel to some people is that you believe that you can not lose your salvation and they think that's the believing and trusting that saves them. They think that is the grace of God that one has to believe in to be saved.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life!

The other day I went to an amusement park with my family. This is how I looked while riding the towerof terror… the name says it all. I was terrified and afterwards had one of those moments when you want to pay somebody to take down your picture (the one they take while you are on the ride)….

 

[Magenta]

Oh, I don't know. I wouldn't reject doing that altogether in every situation. (But surely the 'Not By Works' thread is a cesspool of demonic activity that as of a few months ago had nothing godly or useful happening in it. That is a haunt for demons.)

A haunt you pretty much called home for many months after joining this site. What does that make you, besides an egotistical demoniac who thinks the thread has nothing to offer since you departed it?

 

[dcontroversal]

There is but one correct message that has power to save....most have corrupted that message and believing a false gospel = hell to pay!

I WILL DEBATE until the cows come home, the chickens roost, Jesus comes or hell freezes over.....seeing how the latter will never happen.....!!!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why do you think that to believe you can stop believing (and so forfeit that which believing secures) automatically and without exception means you're living in fear? Unless you mean the healthy kind of fear of being removed from the vine which Paul talks about in Romans 11.

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either."-Romans 11:20-21.

Don't you have the fear Paul is talking about? Not the fear that you will stop believing, but the fear of what will happen if you do.

IMO those who don't know that fear don't know well the holy spirit because the fear of GOD is holy spirit.

And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from [his] root: and the Spirit of God shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and godliness shall fill him; the spirit of the fear of God. He shall not judge according to appearance, nor reprove according to report: Isaiah 11:1-3​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It almost seems like believing the gospel to some people is that you believe that you can not lose your salvation and they think that's the believing and trusting that saves them. They think that is the grace of God that one has to believe in to be saved.

IMO that accurately describes what faith is to some people - the belief that salvation is one's spiritual nature, rather than who we are abiding in through the spirit in faith.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

There is but one correct message that has power to save....most have corrupted that message and believing a false gospel = hell to pay!

I WILL DEBATE until the cows come home, the chickens roost, Jesus comes or hell freezes over.....seeing how the latter will never happen.....!!!!

And I will study my Bible until then!!!!!!!!

I am being naughty now

 

[PennEd]

Strawman.

osas believes we can never be good enough, not that we can sin all we want. How can a child if God think they can sin all they want. [/QUOte)

I've heard them say it doesn't matter whether they sin or not. Another said they can live in the sin of drunkenness on a regular basis, with no goal to stop, and still be saved. But the bible says do not be fooled, such will not enter heaven.

Been here 5 yrs and the ONLY people I have EVER heard say that sin doesn't matter, that we can live any way we want, or get drunk every day, is those who do not believe they are yet children of God, and therefore do NOT believe they are ETERNALLY secure in Jesus Christ.

THIS verse always comes to mind when I see it done:

Romans 3:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!


I'd urge all who accuse the brethren that they preach we can sin all we want, to pray on this verse.

 

[mailmandan]

OSAS believe they can sin all they want and still go to heaven, but you must obey God in order to go to heaven.

Straw man argument and how much obedience must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Man is saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

I will never give up trying to save them with truth- just like Noah tried right up until they entered the ark.

Salvation by "water and works" is not the truth and neither is salvation "obtained and maintained" by works. You are still unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination.

In this verse I'm about to give they were saved but are saved no longer because of their behavior and attitude... "But if you sin wilfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." "No longer" means there once genuinely did.

Hebrews 10:26 does not teach they were saved but are saved no longer. In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Hebrews 10:26 (AMP) - For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate].

 

[PennEd]

It was inevitable to morph into the actual debate. Thank you to those who remained on subject.

Here's my contention - there's what, 6 threads currently running on the subject? DCon has a thread on it that's 3500 pages long? The same handful of arguments on both sides have been made how many thousands of times?

And all of it with what result?

The result is good Christians tied up in 'vain repetitions', wasting hordes of time and energy on what is for the great vast majority of us a moot subject. Energy that could be better spent on more productive endeavors.

Idle hands are the devil's work. And I would suggest that a lot of this battle is at the devil's urging, lest that time and effort be spent actually battling him.

Agree to disagree and MOVE ON. Beating a dead horse never helped anyone.

Speaking for myself, THIS is why I continue to pop into the eternal security Threads:
[h=1]1 Peter 3:15 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]15 But sanctify the Lord God[a] in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

I CONTINUE to learn from these threads, using the prescient points that so many wonderful brothers and sisters have posted, as a Bible study leader, and witnessing to others. It would NOT be very Good News to tell people that they could become children of the Most High God, and possibly STILL have Him cast them into hell if they messed up, became unborn by losing their Father in Heaven.

The "OSAS" debate is near and dear to my heart, as for many yrs I was on the other side of the argument, and thought you COULD lose your salvation. The Lord HIMSELF told me otherwise, and I'd spare my dear Christian family members that torment if I can.

So, repetitious? Yep. But just when I think I've read it all, someone posts a powerful message that renews and refreshes me to the REALITY that God will NEVER leave nor forsake us, and even if WE stray away, He WILL leave the 99 to bring us back. Why?

​BECAUSE WE ARE HIS KIDS!!
[/FONT]

 

[OneFaith]

maybe this should show you you need to listen and stop thinking you know. Thats one f the major issues with people, they assume 5ings not true, on. Both sides.



keep thinking that, your putting people under law and rejecting grace, if on could sin themselves out if salvation, then grace is null and void

the same author said hat by one sacrifice christ perfected forever those who are being sanctified, can the author contradict himself? Does forever no mean forever?

God chooses to give grace to those who obey Him. It is not earned by their obedience, but also not given without their obedience.

 

[graceNpeace]

This springs to mind:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together."
Romans 8:1-17

 

[NoNameMcgee]

romans 5
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

--------------

Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

------------------------

romans 10

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above


-------------------
John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




Im sure glad it is by faith I am made righteous by the obedience of Jesus.

"by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous"

praise God

 

[OneFaith]

You're sinning all you want and you're still going to make it to Heaven. I say that respectfully because you know you're not perfect in thought and deed and the Lord is sanctifying you, yet you also know that sin is a choice. Your belief that OSAS believers think they can sin all they want is them expressing the logical conclusion of saved by grace through faith. Yet also, is such a question addressed in scripture. How are we who are dead to sin, live therein? Likewise the OSAS proponents do not encourage, endorse, suggest, or affirm a hedonist lifestyle or a pursuit of a sinful life (licentiousness).

You're making a false correlation. Once saved always saved doctrine doesn't translate to a sinful life, because it is God's grace that breaks sin's dominion in our lives.[/QUOTE



I am not sinning all I want. I have not smoked in years, but have been tempted to many time since then, yet have not done so. I wanted to, but didnt- that is not sinning all I want to. I have been tempted to get drunk, I've been tempted to have relations with someone I am not married to, but I have not. Did I want to do these things? Very much so, but my want to do what's right and to obey God was a much greater want. Do I sin from time to time? Yes I do. But you saying that I sin all that I want to is very far from the truth.

There is a difference between those who sin while tempted in the moment, and those who sin purposely- premeditated (planned to in advance), without goal or effort to stop- this is sinning willfully. There are genuine Christians who decide to do this- to take advantage of God grace (Christ's blood) and start using it as a licence to sin. When this happens, God takes grace away from them- Christ's sacrifice on their behalf no longer remains for them. Therefore they lose their salvation, therefore OSAS is a false doctrine. "But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins."

How can we live in sin any longer? We cant- because if we did go back to living in sin (not just visiting sin) we would no longer be christians, but would be worldly once again.

(Licentiousness is not just sin but sexual sin).

 

[mailmandan]

God chooses to give grace to those who obey Him. It is not earned by their obedience, but also not given without their obedience.

So your implication is, "obey Him by getting water baptized?" Grace given but not earned by obedience/works is an oxymoron. Romans 5:2 - through whom also we have access by faith (not faith and obedience/works) into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[graceNpeace]

God chooses to give grace to those who obey Him. It is not earned by their obedience, but also not given without their obedience.

So, all you have done is turned the definition of grace on its head...
Not to mention the rather obvious contradiction....

Perhaps a course in logic would be in order!

 

[OneFaith]

So your implication is, "obey Him by getting water baptized?" Grace given but not earned by obedience/works is an oxymoron. Romans 5:2 - through whom also we have access by faith (not faith and obedience/works) into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We must obey God, meaning our salvation depends on it. Our obedience does not earn it, but God chooses to give it to those who obey. You agree, do you not, that wide is the gate that leads to hell and most people enter through it, correct? So you agree that there is a difference between saved people and unsaved people, right? What is that difference? That difference is obedience. You say "No, it is faith." But faith is obedience (one of the things to obey). Therefore, by saying you must have faith you yourself are saying you must obey.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So, all you have done is turned the definition of grace on its head...
Not to mention the rather obvious contradiction....

Perhaps a course in logic would be in order!

IT's really not a contradiction. Forgiveness and justification through grace are not earned through obedience, but the spirit of grace is not given without obedience.

This one God has exalted to his right hand [as] Leader and Savior to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things, and [so is] the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.” Acts 5:31-32​