The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

You two geniuses are so much smarter than the theologians that have worked on eschatology for centuries and came up with 4 different views of it. You are so much smarter than those men. AMAZING!!!! You never rebuted those two sites I pointed you to. Did you bother to even look at them? It seems to me that you don't want to learn what theologians whose job is to study the Bible and make decisions about what it means. To me all you did is ignore them and keep on posting how smarter you are than theologians that study the scripture. I hate to say this but you two sound as dogmatic as Jim Jones!!

Methinks your egos are getting in the way!!!

Endoscopy, they're only men! If you have four different views, they cannot all be Biblical. Regarding those sites, as I told you in an earlier post, I have the book of the four views and I've gone over these views more times than I can count. Since they can't all be correct, then we must cross-reference and compare scripture to weed out those views as to why they are incorrect. Also, it is not a matter of being "smarter" but what the Spirit reveals.

As I said in a previous post, give me a conflicting issue regarding end-time events and I will provide scripture as to why that view is wrong.

As I gave in a previous example, the historic view interprets end-time events as finding fulfillment in past historical events beginning with the first century. Yet, Jesus, in presenting the signs leading up to his return to end the age makes it clear that these events take place in the last generation, a generation scripturally being no longer than 100 years and most likely being closer to 70 years. So right off the bat the historical view has a major problem.

Give us some popular controversial issues regarding these views and we can discuss them.

 

[Endoscopy]

Endoscopy, they're only men! If you have four different views, they cannot all be Biblical. Regarding those sites, as I told you in an earlier post, I have the book of the four views and I've gone over these views more times than I can count. Since they can't all be correct, then we must cross-reference and compare scripture to weed out those views as to why they are incorrect. Also, it is not a matter of being "smarter" but what the Spirit reveals.

As I said in a previous post, give me a conflicting issue regarding end-time events and I will provide scripture as to why that view is wrong.

As I gave in a previous example, the historic view interprets end-time events as finding fulfillment in past historical events beginning with the first century. Yet, Jesus, in presenting the signs leading up to his return to end the age makes it clear that these events take place in the last generation, a generation scripturally being no longer than 100 years and most likely being closer to 70 years. So right off the bat the historical view has a major problem.

Give us some popular controversial issues regarding these views and we can discuss them.

Obviously you are calling theologians that for centuries worked on eschatology liars. While ALL four are Biblical only one will be correct. The issue you seem to pig headed to admit is theologians for centuries have come up with these 4 views that conform to the eschatologyical texts in the Bible.

Again your ego is in charge believing all of the theologians for centuries are wrong. They devoted their lives to the study of the Bible and you just know that they are wrong. I have seen absolutely NO REFUTATION of the 2 sites I posted. All you do is rant your pig headed idiocy!!!

I posted both sites which you ignored. Here they are again!!!

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.


https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm


Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories

REFUTE THEM OR SHUT UP.

 

[Endoscopy]

I suggest that you read the last paragraph of the following site. You need to take that advice. Notice both sites give scripture and then discuss the problem of interpretation.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

 

[Ahwatukee]

I suggest that you read the last paragraph of the following site. You need to take that advice. Notice both sites give scripture and then discuss the problem of interpretation.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Can't comply with my request, huh? As I said, I've studied this information for over 40 years and have never changed my position on this and that because I've gone over and continue to over it. Scripture is what determines the truth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Obviously you are calling theologians that for centuries worked on eschatology liars. While ALL four are Biblical only one will be correct. The issue you seem to pig headed to admit is theologians for centuries have come up with these 4 views that conform to the eschatologyical texts in the Bible.

Again your ego is in charge believing all of the theologians for centuries are wrong. They devoted their lives to the study of the Bible and you just know that they are wrong. I have seen absolutely NO REFUTATION of the 2 sites I posted. All you do is rant your pig headed idiocy!!!

I posted both sites which you ignored. Here they are again!!!

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.


https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm


Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories

REFUTE THEM OR SHUT UP.

No, I am not pig-headed. I just know the truth. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would remind believers of everything that he said and would reveal things yet to come. Just bring up any of the conflicting issues and we'll compare them to scripture.

That is another issue. Instead of you presenting scripture, you are referring me to other men. Gathering around them a great number of teachers to hear what their itching hears want to hear.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I posted both sites which you ignored. Here they are again!!!

Whenever someone proclaims their view and instead of providing scripture themselves, they refer you to someone else's teaching, that is a problem. You should be able to present scripture to me from what you know, not what other men teach. I don't repeat the teachings of others, but present my own findings via scripture. You should be able to do the same.

 

[tanakh]

The only person I know who received the truth from Scripture and the Holy Spirit alone apart from Christ Himself is St Paul and even Paul went to see Peter for confirmation some time later.

 

[Endoscopy]

Can't comply with my request, huh? As I said, I've studied this information for over 40 years and have never changed my position on this and that because I've gone over and continue to over it. Scripture is what determines the truth.

And anyone that disagrees with you is wrong including the theologians who for centuries have determined there are 4 seperate Biblical views of eschatology.

Your ego is absolutely not realistic. The I'm right and the world is wrong is idiotic.

 

[Endoscopy]

No, I am not pig-headed. I just know the truth. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would remind believers of everything that he said and would reveal things yet to come. Just bring up any of the conflicting issues and we'll compare them to scripture.

That is another issue. Instead of you presenting scripture, you are referring me to other men. Gathering around them a great number of teachers to hear what their itching hears want to hear.

Avoid the issue with a red herring post. That is a fallacious attack. It is done by bringing up a different issue to avoid the real issue being discussed. In this case saying I am referring you to other men instead of scripture. This is a false statement. I referred you to two sites that give scripture and then discuss the scripture. No names are mentioned. Why the prevarications!!!

I suggest you study this site and think about how you have been using fallacious attacks. For example pigheadedness!!

A List Of Fallacious Arguments

 

[Endoscopy]

Argument By Repetition (Argument Ad Nauseam):

if you say something often enough, some people will begin to believe it. There are some net.kooks who keeping reposting the same articles to Usenet, presumably in hopes it will have that effect.​

 

[Endoscopy]

Whenever someone proclaims their view and instead of providing scripture themselves, they refer you to someone else's teaching, that is a problem. You should be able to present scripture to me from what you know, not what other men teach. I don't repeat the teachings of others, but present my own findings via scripture. You should be able to do the same.
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When the texts and explanations get lengthy most people on the site will ignore it. To keep it short in the post it makes sense to point to the lengthy article!!!

 

[DiscipleDave]

It is obvious to the casual observer that you are very egotistical and long winded. I and many others just ignore long winded diatribes like your posts. It is obvious you never heard of the KISS method. It is very popular among electronics and software people. They are areas that can get very complicated. Therefore engineers are reminded to Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). You should do the same. I haven't bothered to read this post but am telling you why I and others ignore it!!! Instead of one long winded post make multiple short posts keeping to the point for each issue.

i understand what you are saying, but i will write what the Spirit puts on my heart to write, if the Spirit wants me to break up my post i will comply, Should i not do what the Spirit tells me to do?

What is to me if you do not read what the Spirit leads me to write? God already told me, i do not have to convince anyone of the TRUTHS which He told me, all i am required to do for Him, is reveal the TRUTHS which He told me. This i do, and it pleases Him.

Again, i don't care if you read the long winded posts or not, they are meant for those who God will lead to read them. If they are long winded then don't read them, if you deem what God told as to be unworthy to read because it would take you to long to read it, what is that to me, i have done what God instructs me to do, and He told me i don't have to convince you of the TRUTH only reveal it to you. What is it to me if you do not want to read what God told me because it takes to long?

Put me on ignore, and move on.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

There are 4 main eschatologyical views that theologians have worked on for centuries. All are Biblical. I find it ridiculous that some people think they have all the correct single viewpoint in one view. Here are the four views of eschatology oh superior Dave. Refute what theologians for centuries have come up with. Put your ego aside and study them to accurately refute them.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories

Tell me, if God spoke to you in conversation tonight upon your bed, and told you what is going to happen in the Future, Would you believe what men say is going to happen (ie the four eschatologyical views) or will you believe what God told you? Answer the question. If you don't, then it is apparent you don't think God speaks to people. You believe there can't possible be another view except for your four eschatological views that men have come up with. Even when i have told you that it is God that has told me what is going to happen in the future. Can you answer the question or not. Just in case you forgot what i asked already i will present it again:

if God spoke to you in conversation tonight upon your bed, and told you what is going to happen in the Future, Would you believe what men say is going to happen (ie the four eschatologyical views) or will you believe what God told you?

Yes or no answer?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Correct,
When things start to get really bad as indicated in Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24, and we either find ourselves off the planet or still on it will we then know.

Are you saying God can't reveal it to someone?

Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

So does God reveal His secrets to His servants or not? If this verse no longer applies today, what verse teaches that it does not apply today?

Wasn't Daniel told to seal them up for the last days. What then? Are they not revealed to His Servants in the last days?

Is it not written to ask and you shall receive, and believing you shall receive it? Are you saying if a person asks for understanding of Daniel that God would not grant it to them? When they asked believing He would answer them? Does God lie?

This generation needs to wake up from their sleeping. God reveals to whomever God reveals a thing. i don't know it all, but i know in part what He has told me. i know what is going to happen in the future, because God told me what is going to happen and how and in what order it is going to happen in.

What loving parent would not answer a question their child presented to them? Sure that loving parent may say, i can't tell you right now, but i will tell you when you are older, be patient. Our Father in Heaven will answer our questions as well, in His time, NOT YOURS.

Can you know what Daniel means? Can you understand Daniel? Sure you can. You can either believe the four views that men came up with, or you can ask God for the answer and He will tell you, might be tomorrow, might be a year, might be 40 years from now, but He will tell you. Woe to this generation who are quick to believe the doctrines of men instead of waiting on God for the answers they ask Him. As long as a person seeks TRUTH in other ways, they will never gain it.

Mat_7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Tell me, is is Gods fault you do not believe this Holy Scripture?

Mat_18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

What? We can do this, we can ask God for understanding of Daniel and He will do it?

Mat_21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Ahhhh, now i understand why this generation may ask but do NOT receive, because if you ask God to reveal to you the understanding of Daniel, you deep down don't believe that He will. Therefore He WON'T. Woe to this generation who do not understand the Power of the Word of God.

The prayer that God loves, are those who ask for understanding of His Word. Have you prayed to God for Him to reveal to you understanding of His Word, or have you tried to gain that understanding by your own studies, your own intellect, your own interpretations. Woe to this generation indeed which fail miserable to understand that , Interpretations belong to God NOT to men. God will reveal to whom God will reveal.
As long as men interpret the Word of God, we are going to have false doctrines.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Oh my gosh! I'm laughing so hard!! I love the KISS concept - Keep It Simple Stupid! LOL!

The scripture that comes to mind is "KISS the Son, least He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him." Psalm 2:12

Sidenote: No need to complicate the Word of God - Keep It Simple Stupid! LOL!

Simple question, would God condone calling someone stupid?

Yes or no answer.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

The Holy Spirit will not reveal to you anything that is not in Scripture.
One should be very careful of those who have "special" insight or understanding.

Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Do you believe God reveals secrets to his servants the prophets or not? If these secrets that God reveals to His prophets are already in Scripture how are they secret?

Act 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Tell me was their something in Scriptures anywhere that indicated Paul's girdle meant that He was going to be bound hand and foot, and delivered to the gentiles? Or was this a secret that God revealed to the prophet Agabus? If i say the anti-christ will one day say on TV, Radio, Satellite, internet this statement "Where is your God now?" What because that is not found in Scriptures it can't be True? So God told me that secret, but you think because that secret is not in Scriptures that it can't be TRUE?

Of course we are to try the Spirits, even demons can talk to people who will claim to be prophets. How you know which are false and which are true, by the things they say. If one teaches something that is contrary to Scriptures, then that most certainly is a false prophet, one not to listen to. But if they teach things, (even if they are not found in Scriptures), that are NOT contrary to Scriptures, then it would behoove you to listen to such a one.

i know that the 144,000 that are sealed are children. i know this because God told me this secret. Can that be found in Scriptures? No, Does it make it untrue? No.

Do you pick and choose which verses you will believe and which ones you will not believe? Does God reveal secrets to his servants the prophets or not? And if they are indeed secret, then they would not be revealed in Scriptures.

You are absolutely correct though, Everyone should be very careful of those who have "special insights" or "special understanding" or "secrets from God" For i tell you the Truth, there are many false prophets proclaiming what is going to happen in the future, as if they actually knew this. But even though Many are false, does not mean, nor imply that ALL OF THEM are false.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Perhaps there should be three different Rapture threads? For Pre, Mid & Post Tribbers. And maybe an anti-rapture thread. LOL!
Then if you don't like one interpretation you could not comment in that respective thread?

I'd like to read more of the different views and teachings without all the bickering.

Would it not be better to ask God for His view, then be patient for Him to tell you?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hello Ellsworth1943,

I understand your concern for caution, but I can see Ahwatukee's passion for God's Word. He doesn't defend himself, he defends what he believes to be God's Word. Notice how he stays strictly to scripture and does not deviate.

One that loves God and His Word will be given understanding and insight and I was just wondering if Ahwatukee might have been given any insight from the Holy Spirit about the 4 living creatures at the throne room in Rev. Chapter 4.

i agree Ahwatukee has a passion for what he believes, but it is misplaced. Many questions i have asked him concerning what he believes that he does not answer me when i ask him. He also testified openly that what he knows is not from divine revelation, but from his own studies of Scriptures. He testified that he has not learned from any man, i then laughed out loud and said but you are a man. Ahwatukee, as well intention as he is, believes his own interpretations over that which the Word of God plainly teaches. He has this ideal of how things are going to happen according to his own interpretations and then interprets verses to fit into his belief of what he thinks is going to happen.

For example he teaches that the Holy City Jerusalem comes down AFTER the millennium, After the Great white Throne judgement, Which there is not one verse that supports this belief, or even implies this to be True, it is in his own mind that this is TRUE, and even though i have shown him Scriptures after Scriptures that teach sinful men are present with the Holy City, and does not answer or comment on them, because if sinful men are present during the New City Jerusalem, then it has to come down to Earth during a time when sinful men are still present upon the Earth.

So yeah he uses Scriptures but only the ones that support his belief of what he thinks is going to Happen. And it is also apparent that he is unbending on his belief even if people show him Scriptures that show that belief to be in error.
i think Ahwatukee loves to study, loves to interpret, loves to break down the Word of God, comparing here a little there a little. And i commend him for his attitude of studying. But what i see with him, and is most sad, is that he fails to understand this simple concept that God told me several different times during our conversations "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures than what you believe is wrong"

i can show him many verses that contradict what he believes to be TRUE, and instead of embracing those verses, he ignores them, interprets them away, or makes them void. Instead of changing his belief to match what Scriptures teach, he changes Scriptures to match what he believes, this is very sad, because he could be a great warrior for God, if he could just be willing to give up his own belief. He must die to his own understanding to be opened up for the understanding of Spirit of Truth to come in.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

But he often gives his private interpretation on Scripture.

This i have seen quite a bit with him as well. Many things he teaches i have asked him to show Scriptures with indicates or even implies what he is teaching, and he rarely if ever answers such questions? Why? Because they are his private interpretations not what Scriptures actually teaches.

What ever insight he has will agree with Scripture and will be given to you or me if we will pray and study.

This goes for anyone. The Spirit of Truth is alway ready to impart her wisdom to those who seek it. The problem is this generation seek that wisdom via other means and not by her. They seek it through their own interpretations of Scriptures, they seek it through the Hebrew or Greek, they seek if from lost books of the Bible, they seek it from other writings, they seek it from other people, they seek it from books, documents, or scripts. All of which are trying to find and understand TRUTH some other way then by and through the Holy Spirit of God.

If you Truly want understanding then ask God for it. Stop seeking it via your own means via your own intellect. Ask God for it, and be patient and believe He will tell you, and She will tell you. But as long as men seek it through their own power they will never find it. Understanding of the Word of God can't be done through human knowledge, it is only through divine intervention that the Understanding of the Word of God is given to those who are ready to leave the milk of the Word. But as long as a person seeks that knowledge through his own self, they hinder the Holy Spirit of Truth from doing her work in them.

His intellect nor his understanding is any greater than most of us.

i some what disagree with this, he has a very high intellect, i would imagine a higher than average IQ as well, but this is not to his benefit. The Learned rarely give place for the Spirit to work, because the learned feel like they have to learn it in order to achieve it. The belief that Ahwatukee has, took many many years to come up with, much learning, much studying, devoted to his work on it. NO place for the Holy Ghost to inform him of Truths, when they are Truths that he has to try to find via his intellect. He believes his doctrine so blindly that he can no longer even tell you how or what verses led him to believe this or that. He is blinded by his own intellect, and the Holy Spirit of Truth hands are tied, and she can't do much with him. i think, not the Lord, IMO That he actually would be better off to forget everything he has ever learned and reread the Bible and merely believe it and what it says. That is my opinion and not from the Lord though.

I stand by my warning to be careful of any teacher who continually corrects those who disagrees with them and has on occasion told those who disagree with him that they should not teach.

Amen, we always should try the spirits. Anyone who teaches something that is contrary to a single verse in Scriptures is a person who does not know the TRUTH, and should not be hearkened to.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

I am Mid Tribulation too. The Church age has to come to an end before the last 3 and a half years occur. We are not to see God's wrath when this happens.

Scriptures teach the Church goes through some but not all of Tribulations. Mid-Trib is the only one that does not contradict any Scriptures. it is also what God told me will happen.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave