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The Rapture
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heartofdavid
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heartofdavid
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave
Can you show me one verse that says the Rapture happens BEFORE any Tribulations? Absolutely nothing. Is it not True you are basing the entire pre-trib belief on an interpretation that the Church is not appointed to wrath?
Jesus said ,in God's word, That there are 2 examples of deliverance before tribulation/judgement.
Lot,and Noah.
neither are post judgement deliverances.
NEITHER.
Neither are delivered "mid trib"
BOTH ARE PRETRIB DYNAMICS.
Now thats "just " Jesus' words. I know postribs and midtribs will tell us different.
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heartofdavid
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Ok,we all believe Jesus returns post trib. we all believe that.
The RAPTURE however,is pretrib.
The PURPOSE of the rapture is the key to understanding.
The chrch is only INDIRECTLY involved.
The reason you see saints IN THE GT,is because they are those left behind.
Mat 25;
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Hello,yes,the rapture is in fact pretrib.
Boy just remember that you asked for this! Lol
First of all the Second Coming of Jesus and the Rapture are two separate events. Jesus' second coming will come in the twinkling of an eye. The Rapture is not so.
The Rapture is a 3 day event. As the Sun passes over at 12 noon on parts of the Earth at those time zones these events will occur in full view of all mankind and undeniable.
1st Day
All the dead in Christ will burst from the graves transfigured and will ascend to heaven. This event will cause many to believe on Jesus Christ.
2nd Day
Everyone living 25 years and down who believe on Jesus Christ, will Transfigure in full view of mankind and ascend to Heaven. This includes those 25 year olds and on down who came to believe because of the previous day of the dead arising in Christ. The unborn children in their mothers wombs will also Transfigure and no children will be conceived to men for the duration of the Tribulation Period. Also all innocent minded humans will Transfigure too, in example, those like people with Dow's Syndrome and other afflictions of the mind. God will not allow any innocent persons to suffer through the Tribulation Period of his wrath.
3rd Day
All others 25 years and Older who believe on Jesus Christ.
This includes everyone who believed on Jesus because of the first 2 day's events of the Rapture even if they are 25 years and younger.
God's mercies towards mankind are Wonderful!
There it is, rip at it all you want. It does me no harm because I am anonymous and will remain the same. Would you like to know the year and the season? Would you like to know the exact day of the sign in the sky of Revelation chapter 12 which is the Mid Trib marker of the last 3 and 1\2 years of the Tribulation Period?
Amazing how 2 posters on this site ignore the 4 Biblical versions of eschatology that theologians for centuries have worked with and can't find a way to remove any of them. These posters don't bother to look at them and refute them but just make pronouncements from their own reading of the Bible. They are right and the world of theologians is wrong. Pure egotistical thinking.
Greetings Roadkill,
First of all, you are correct in that the Second Coming and gathering of the church as being two separate events. But regarding what you said "Jesus' second coming will come in the twinkling of an eye. The Rapture is not so," this is false. In this case you have the two events backwards, for there is a multitude of signs leading up to Christ's second coming, namely the antichrist establishing that seven year covenant which initiates the seven years, the setting up of the abomination which marks the middle of the seven years, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God and which will be taking place during that seven year period, with Christ returning shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out. So No! The second coming of Christ will not be like a thief in the night. It is the gathering of the church that will be like a thief in the night, for that event has no signs and can take place at any moment.
Also, you have the gathering of the church taking place over a 3 day period, when there is absolutely zero scripture to support this. In fact, the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living will take place in close proximity to each other. The only reason that the living are changed, is because they will still be alive when the Lord comes to gather the church. For example, scripture states that when the dead resurrect they will be caught up in the air, then immediately after that we who are still alive and remain will be changed and caught up with them. According to you, those who will have been resurrected will be gathered and waiting in the air for three days for the living believers. The whole event of the dead rising and the living being changed and caught up will take place in a Nano second. The people of the earth will realize something has happened because of the great number of people missing.
Where in the world did you get the above information from? It surely doesn't come from the word of God.
Where is it stated in scripture that it is only those who are 25 years and younger who will be transfigured? Don't bother, because there is no such scripture! What about those who are 26 and older who are in Christ and are still alive at that time and who will have also been looking the blessed hope? I submit to you that every person in Christ who is alive at the time of the resurrection, regardless of age, will be changed and caught up.
Scripture would disagree with you regarding your claim that no children will be conceived during the tribulation period and that because the following scripture is regarding Israel's fleeing into the desert as a result of the abomination being set up, which initiates the great tribulation and demonstrating that there will be women who are pregnant and those who are nursing children.
"How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened
There is no way to know when Jesus will return to the earth to gather His church. You are correct in that the events of Rev.12 with the Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and the woman fleeing out into that place prepared for her by God. But the only way to know when the middle of the seven years is, is to know when that seven years begins. And the only way to know that, is when that antichrist is revealed and establishes that seven year agreement with Israel. Otherwise, there is no way to know when the middle of the seven years will take place, until the seven years is initiated.
Most everything that you have claimed above is pure conjecture, because there is no scripture for it and neither did you provide any to back up your claim.
First of all, you are correct in that the Second Coming and gathering of the church as being two separate events. But regarding what you said "Jesus' second coming will come in the twinkling of an eye. The Rapture is not so," this is false. In this case you have the two events backwards, for there is a multitude of signs leading up to Christ's second coming, namely the antichrist establishing that seven year covenant which initiates the seven years, the setting up of the abomination which marks the middle of the seven years, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God and which will be taking place during that seven year period, with Christ returning shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out. So No! The second coming of Christ will not be like a thief in the night. It is the gathering of the church that will be like a thief in the night, for that event has no signs and can take place at any moment.
Also, you have the gathering of the church taking place over a 3 day period, when there is absolutely zero scripture to support this. In fact, the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living will take place in close proximity to each other. The only reason that the living are changed, is because they will still be alive when the Lord comes to gather the church. For example, scripture states that when the dead resurrect they will be caught up in the air, then immediately after that we who are still alive and remain will be changed and caught up with them. According to you, those who will have been resurrected will be gathered and waiting in the air for three days for the living believers. The whole event of the dead rising and the living being changed and caught up will take place in a Nano second. The people of the earth will realize something has happened because of the great number of people missing.
Where in the world did you get the above information from? It surely doesn't come from the word of God.
Where is it stated in scripture that it is only those who are 25 years and younger who will be transfigured? Don't bother, because there is no such scripture! What about those who are 26 and older who are in Christ and are still alive at that time and who will have also been looking the blessed hope? I submit to you that every person in Christ who is alive at the time of the resurrection, regardless of age, will be changed and caught up.
Scripture would disagree with you regarding your claim that no children will be conceived during the tribulation period and that because the following scripture is regarding Israel's fleeing into the desert as a result of the abomination being set up, which initiates the great tribulation and demonstrating that there will be women who are pregnant and those who are nursing children.
"How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened
There is no way to know when Jesus will return to the earth to gather His church. You are correct in that the events of Rev.12 with the Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and the woman fleeing out into that place prepared for her by God. But the only way to know when the middle of the seven years is, is to know when that seven years begins. And the only way to know that, is when that antichrist is revealed and establishes that seven year agreement with Israel. Otherwise, there is no way to know when the middle of the seven years will take place, until the seven years is initiated.
Most everything that you have claimed above is pure conjecture, because there is no scripture for it and neither did you provide any to back up your claim.
I've already studied them for many years prior to your post and continue to study end-time events. There is only one view that is Biblically correct, with the others being misapplied, misinterpreted, historicized, allegorized, preterized and amillennialized.
Everything from Revelation chapter four onward is future, as it is the "what must take place later" part of what John was told to write and which takes place after the "what is now," i.e. the church period, which we are still in. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will appear and gather the church bringing and end to the "what is now" with the "what must take place after this" to follow.
ROFL
Words not rebuttal. Where is your PROOF from scripture. Demonstrate where each goes wrong. The huge issue in eschatology is correctly defining the symbolism in Daniel and Revelation. Therefore you must have cracked the meaning of the symbology where others failed. Give us the meaning behind a couple of those symbols demonstrating where the others failed.
I am going to do just that just to shut you up! I've already been to your site and I am going to list each teaching for those views and why they are wrong. By the way, I just provided scriptural proof in the previous post and you didn't recognize it.
There is nothing difficult about "cracking the meaning of symbology" as the meaning to the symbolism in Revelation, for the most part, is provided right in the same book.
Pick something that is symbolic out of Revelation and I will tell you what the literal meaning of it is using scripture. Unless you are unable to do that?
Look if you have a Bible and keep studying with the guidance of The Holy Spirit you'll understand Revelation more and more, the Revelation symbolism is found in The OT. We don't need a room full of theologians. It's alright to consult teachers from the past but you seem to want to rely only on that for some reason. It's back tracking.
im sure every person has that view of thier view of revelation. you said this
Everything from Revelation chapter four onward is future <<<< heres proof that it is not all future
rvelation 17 " The beast that thou sawest was, <( past) and is not; <( present) and( future) > shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9And here is the mind which hath wisdom.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. [/FONT]10[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And there are [/FONT]seven kings[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]:[/FONT] five are fallen,[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] <( past) and [/FONT]one is,<[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ( present) [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and the other [/FONT]is not yet come; ( future) [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. [/FONT][FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"
[/FONT]revelation is a perpetual book, ofthings in Heaven chapter four is when John is taken up to Heaven to see the revelation of Jesus Christ. it all leads to the end, and new beginning, but everything there is not a future event and many events, arent even on earth, much of it, is John seeing things in Heaven, and then seeing the effects on earth later.
sometimes we get so certain, were stopping right where it gets interesting because we think we have it figured out. the book of revelation has been the most misunderstood book in the bible.
can you connect this, to the book of revelation bro ?
when you are seeing things like this in revelation
revelation chapter 8 " And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."
this is a temple ordinance of the Law, on the day of atonement. this is something done on the golden altar of incense. the smoke went up brfore God, the High priest gathered burning coals from between the golden altar. there are several scenes in revelation, that are of the heavenly temple were told about that Jesus entered in the inner room once for all to be seated at Gods right Hand. it is revealing that henceforth God rules from Heaven until Jesus return when things are made new and everlasting. there are certainly events that happen on earth also in the book, but notice like chapter 12. that goes from all thats been said prior, back to Israel pictured as a woman in glory with a crown and beauty Loved by God and given rule over the earth. and then satan tries to devour her son, who is taken to the throne of God <<< this already had happened as testified by stephen the gospels, Jesus Himself. when Jesus taken to Heaven, he was seated at Gods side then and there forever.
and you see chapter 5 as future when the lamb appears as slain on the throne? Jesus died and was raised to the throne 40 days after His resurrection. that also not a future event, that was something John had already seen, that Jesus was the Lord of both Heaven and earth. thats what you are seeing there, the angels begin the new song when He appears slain on the throne because its no longer " the song of moses" see I believe dueteronomy 31 or 32 to see the song of moses they are singing, but they begin to sing a whole new song giving praise now to the Lamb who was slain and to the One seated on the throne. when you are seeing that How are you not seeing this that happened well prior
peter says this, in acts 2 right after he receives the promised spirit
[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]acts 2 " [/FONT]Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
when you see this in revelation
ch5 " And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. <<< this really remember for a moment)
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]..through v 13.[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]these things were things John already understood, He knew Jesus had all power on earth and Heaven, was the Lamb of God, was slain for our sins and to redeem us to God, not only isreal but people from all nations and tribes,was the Lord, was seated at Gods side, the slain lamb is shown as a picture of the atonement Jesus made for us and His fulfilling of the Law of moses and its promise of the 7 times curses upon not only israel but the whole earth. ( i know this will be of interest to you, or i think it will in the law God tells them He will punish thier sins 7 times with plaugues faminse, pestelence, and a sword until they are destroyed but for a remnant. then he says if they still will not repent, he wil punish them 7 more times with various punishments, and then a 3rd set of 7 punishments is given. i know you will connect this 3 sets of 7 punishments upin those who continually refuse to repent ??????? sound familiar, and when you look at the curses themselves, wow... it really leads somewhere. if your open to trying a new avenue anyways....
notice also how often the temple and preistly services are seen in Johns vision, How Jesus is revealed in the inner room in the beginning of the book, its the inner room of the temple hes in with the candlesticks, and lamps of fire burning...those things are in the law of moses pattern for the temple. in revelation you see the real temple often and real temple services in Heaven, and in the law moses was given a pattern of those eternal things.
revelation is not a book unto its self it leads everywhere in the bible and makes things make sense.
see what peter says there " Jesus has most assuredly been seated at Gods right Hand, and has shed forth the spirit" [/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]then revelation says " [/FONT]
Rapture, when is it? First, it can't be at the end of the tribulation or during the tribulation. Second, if it is anytime after the beginning of the tribulation it dates the Rapture and Second coming. That said we can say with authority that the rapture is not going to take place after the tribulation starts. The only and correct view that meets the smell test on immanency is the Per-Tribulation Rapture, which is the only view found in the Scripture. Immanency is only possible under this correct teaching of the Rapture, all other views fail this fundamental fact. Case Closed.
Hi Anothen,
What are you going to do when the tribulation starts and you realize there was no rapture.
Yours,
Deade
are you certain about that my friend? the Lord Jesus Christ 's " view" of when He will gather His elect.
matthew 24: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. ( see the revelation of Jesus Christ concerning famines, earthquakes and pestilence spread out into the earth)
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, ( again see revelation ) and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
just scripture to consider the Lord said His elect will be gathered immediately after the Great tribulation, im sort of inclined to apply your comment to His understanding of things concerning His salvation and Kingdom and return seems His is the view that should end all " interpretations" and varying views. if were saying a rapture as in Jesus will return and gather all people as he says he will, then theres a rapture, but if were on earth we will go through alot of tribulation during those days,
if you really consider the state of earth However it seems these things are spiritual powers that have been long at work
.....in 2016, there were 90, 000 christians martyred in the world, last years numbers come out in a few weeks to a month. there are thousands of diseases and viruses that mutate and emerge every year, there are wars and rumors of wars alol over the globe. there are countries suffering starvation epidemics, famines and pestelences, germs, think back at all the horrific events in history since Jesus.
the holocaust is well Known, but the jews suffered horrors like that in many different nations after 70 ads dispursion for 2000 plus years they wandered without thier own Homeland, the crusades, the world wars weve had, the medieval times wars, civil wars that rage even today globally......my point is, were not waiting for those things to happen, but for them to run thier full course of time and unfold. they are already well at work in the earth. look at the state of the globe a kingdom fallen.
It is quite amazing that people come up with this notion that "everything in Revelation is symbolic", or allegorical, or metaphorical, or even that everything was already fulfilled in the first century. The symbols are generally explained so that we are not left wondering. And the unveiling of future events is generally chronological also, not a bunch of cycles as some claim.
Since this thread is about the Rapture, and the Rapture is absent from Revelation, not sure why Revelation is even being discussed in this thread.
Wow. You have done what theologians have tried to do for centuries. With that in mind tell me why I should believe you. Keep in mind I have heard things like this for 55 years and all proved false. Pick one of the four views and explain how it isn't Biblical.
I see a shadow of the Rapture in Revelation
Revelations begins speaking to 7 churches. No mention of the church after Rev chapter 4 verse 1.
Why? Because the CHURCH IS GONE! Raptured/Caught-up
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said," """Come up hither"""", and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter
The """come up hither""" is the Rapture.
Rev 4:1 a door was opened in heaven:
1 Thes 4:16 the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
Rev 4:1 a trumpet talking with me
1 Thes 4:16 voice of the archangel, & with the trump ofGod
Rev 4:1 """come up hither""":
1 Thes 4:17 """"caught up together"""", & so shall we ever be with the Lord
I see it here too: Exodus 19, A Shadow Of The Rapture To Come
Ex 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Ex 19:16 (b) There were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount,
Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Ex 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Hos 6:2 (B) In the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Ex 16:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud;
1 Thes 4:16 (B) With the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
Ex 19:20 (A) And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai,
1 Thes 4:16 (A) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
Ex 19:20 (B) The LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
1 Thes 1:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: