You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

louis · Dec 24, 2017

You are associating the great tribulation which is under the seven year period of the beast with the wrath of God which shall befall the worshippers of the beast.
Under the reign of the beast there will be prosperity and peace (Daniel 8:24).
It is at the conclusion of the beasts reign when the judgment shall sit to take away and destroy the beasts system (Daniel 7: 25-26), when the Lords wrath will be poured out upon the faithless worshippers of the beast in Revelation 16.

Daniel 8:24 [FONT=&quot]And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.[/FONT]

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2017

louis said:

Those that you mention above have and are suffering from the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have, which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Those who are here after the church is gathered will go through the time of God's wrath.

Also, in answer to your question "where's their pre-trib rapture?" Since they will have been killed prior to that event, they will be those who will have died in Christ and will be resurrected, with those who are still alive being changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

louis · Dec 24, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

louis said:

I agree with most of what you say about the tribulation of the faithful, and subsequent wrath on the faithless. I also agree that the faithful shall be removed from the wrath to come. However, I believe this removal is represented by the Lords angels gathering of the faithful from the four winds and transporting them to the Middle East which will have previously been desolated by the abomination of desolation.
Have to leave now. Off to inlaws Christmans Eve party.
God bless brethren.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2017

The entire seven years is God's wrath, including the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the plagues of the two witnesses and the beasts kingdom. It is all apart of God's wrath. His wrath is not against those who worship the beast, but the proud, arrogant and all of those who will have rejected Christ.

Only the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period will be a false peace. But in the middle of the seven he will set up that abomination and proclaim himself to be God. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation throughout the entire seven years to the very end just be fore the Lord returns.

shrume · Dec 24, 2017

louis said:

I do not believe Christians will be here to worship the beast.

I hold to a dispensational view of the scriptures. The Christian church is not Israel, or “spiritual Israel”.

I believe the Christian church began on the day of Pentecost, and will end with the rapture, which will precede the 7 year trib. The trib was prophesied for Israel, not Christianity.

shrume · Dec 24, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Some of what people who will come to believe during the trib will go through will be the wrath of Satan.

Rev 12:12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2017

The "angels gathering of the faithful from the four winds" is referring to Matt.24:31 which takes place at the same time that the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age, which takes place after God's wrath. In that verse, the angels will be gathering living people, the tares first and the wheat after. This has nothing to do with the church, for the church will have been gathered seven years prior to that event. If you have the church being gathered at Matt. 24:31, then it would mean that the church would have gone through the entire wrath of God. Also, when the Lord appears to gather his church, angels do not gather them. The living will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air where according to John 14:1-3 he will take the entire church back to the Father's house.

preacher4truth · Dec 24, 2017

louis said:

I'm not a dispy...

shrume · Dec 24, 2017

preacher4truth said:

Not yet...

zone · Dec 24, 2017

shrume said:

the differences are already known.
one believes in Christ, the other doesn't

Ahwatukee · Dec 24, 2017

shrume said:

From what I know through scripture, Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth is the result of the 7th trumpet and is the 3rd woe and which is also the reason for his wrath which will cover that last 3 1/2 years. His "knowing that his time is short" is referring to the fact that when Jesus returns to the earth 3 1/2 years later, he will be thrown into the Abyss and locked up for a thousand years. But even though Satan will have wrath at that time, the seven years is still the time of God's wrath. Everything going on during that time period is related to God's wrath.

abcdef · Dec 24, 2017

Locutus said:

All this futurist posturing over the "rapture" is wrong - Paul is telling the Thessalonians that the man of sin was alive and "well" and being restrained when he wrote to them, therefore the man of sin and the "rapture" can only be a 1st century phenomena.

The man of sin was being restrained in Paul's day - the guy has not lived for nearly 2000 years, neither has he re-appeared in some sort of spiritual "incarnation" of evil.

2 Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

2 Th 2:5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

2 Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Failure to take heed of the audience to which Paul wrote (google audience relevance) leads to all sorts of fawlty interpretation and outrageous speculation.

Why would Paul be "telling you these things"if the man of sin would not be revealed 1900 years and counting later?

Brother Locutus,

So then, who is the man of sin who was revealed by 70 ad?

shrume · Dec 24, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Did you read the verse?

Rev 12:12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Also,
Matt 24:
9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

That will happen to people who will come to believe during the trib. Who or what is going to kill those believers? God’s wrath? Or wicked people working for the devil?

There are similar records in Rev.

OtherWay210 · Dec 25, 2017

louis You are correct . The one taken is taken in lies and deception . Remember Revelation 12,a flood goes after the Christian with a flood from the mouth of The Serpent ..

So Christs' actual return , will be unexpected, because the rest were taken by the lies of the false Christ ; which is The subject of that passage you quoted.

The thief is Satan ; and tribulation of Satan will confuse Christians to where Christ appearing wont be expected .

Christ is not the thief. But people who have not regarded the Bible or been mislead, will be taken as a thief. Consider exactly the language Christ used when addressing the Church of Sardis .

OtherWay210 · Dec 25, 2017

Don't let the peanut gallery confuse you. Just calling a spade a spade; when people pass along bad doctrine , or are confused, it has to be called out .

The chapter is about the end times . Its strange how people neglect passages ; to fit a personal narrative or pet doctrine .

Those who were fallen to a false groom, where those sinning in Christ analogy , they were the ones who were taken off guard as a thief and knew not when the flood came . The return of the true Christ for them, is a negative. Christ is not saying that is what you should aim for. smh

Consider this carefully Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Christ said because of this ignorance, they are actually dead to Him, even thought they call themselves Christians .

The Generation Christ was teaching was those that lived during the End times, last days that would be just prior to the return of Christ. Christ even gave them the signs that would take place to watch,for .

The Abomination that makes desolate, is not about the Romans . Christ did not even elude to Romans.
Jesus taught a prophecy given in Babylonia and it was about the Tribulation and the very end. Not Romans.

That fact is made even clearer, because Christ taught the parable of the fig tree which was about Israel being established. What happened with the destruction of the temple by Titus ? Vespasian sent him in and annexed the what little Jews where there, and of the tribes of Benjamin . That does not fit the parable Christ taught from Jeremiah .

OtherWay210 · Dec 25, 2017

Clarification : Christ was teaching about, The Generation who would live leading up to and during the end, who would see the signs He listed take place.

Ahwatukee · Dec 25, 2017

Hello OtherWay210,

You say that Christ is not who is being represented as the thief in the parable? I'm afraid that the following scriptures would disagree with you:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Jesus is the "I" in the verse above referring to himself as the thief. When he comes for the church it will be like a thief in the night, meaning that, like a thief, no one will know at what time he will come. The goal of a thief is to break in and be on their way without anyone knowing it.

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect Him.

In the parable above, believers are the owners of the house and Jesus is the thief who comes at an hour when we least expect him. This is not debatable as it is very clear in its meaning.

OtherWay210 · Dec 25, 2017

Ahwatukee Christ is not the Thief but to the ignorant and lost Those who have false doctrines of peace, and safety . Rather than have the gospel armor on and in place to stand .

Christ comes as a thief in the context of his signs He taught. Which is, false Christ first, and then, He returns. Again : He comes, or His coming involves All he taught, comes upon the unformed, lost, confused, deceived, people of the world, as a thief. Christ would have us be aware, the tribulation is of that order and nature.

Hes not saying its a positive .........

We don't not the moment, He comes, but we know the events and signs to watch for. He mentions the Thief, Satan, because he just told you in that chapter there would be a false Christ come First. its not difficult .

There is something to be careful very of, Christains have been repeating each others lines, without knowing what they are in fact repeating . Its like well ; expression of whatever belief ; ( insert scripture out of context here ___ ) as a support .

The line in question is " we are not pointed to wrath " . Therefor we will be raptured ..

The problem ? the bible does not give us the believer that scenario .

That line should be understood in full as the Bible takes the time to teach .
The the Christian watchmen ; those like the five wise virgins , are not appointed to wrath : because they know the seasons and the times leading to the true bride groom and wedding .

The scriptures teach they are prepared and fully informed about the dangers posed by the tribulation as it overtakes the world leading up to the end ( those lost in its confusion, and Satans coming tribulation ) the curse refereed to many times in the OT. like was cited in other post; Isaiah 24:6 etc . And here in Malachi:

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

If you knew there was first a false Christ, and you had to wait upon the True Lord, then would God be angry at us those who did that ? Would we fall under the punishments of the curse ? The answer should be a obvious no.

As Revelation 20 states, those that overcome the tribulation escape the wrath of God, because during the tribulation they knew what to expect and how to react as its explained by Christ in His and His apostles many teachings .

Those that participated in what expressed in abstract, or objectified in The mark of the beast symbolism, are ones like Sardis, who run the risk of falling under the Wrath .

The phrase ( we are not appointed to wrath ) was never meant to convey a false narrative of being raptured, or removed from the Tribulation itself.

The impulse to run to a rapture doctrine; or familiar comforting catch phrases they hear from so many confused brothers and sisters;
I believe is made more desperate or pressing in the mind , due to the false narrative bad teachers paint the tribulation to be. One of death agony , or pain and physical torments .

That is just Not what Christ taught in Matthew 24, nor any other place this subject is taught in the Bible.
Its torture and physical hardships, is Not even what is found in Daniels' visions of Midst of the Week .

The nature of the trib of Satan is one of deception With real consequences on the state of the soul, for the believer which the warnings are directed to .

That scenario of spiritual death at worshiping a false Christ, and taking on the role of a whore ; is made apparent from Genesis to Revelation . The prophecy remains unchanged.

It's only in that sense being informed, can a Christian be said to escape the Wrath of God, or not to be pointed to Wrath Because a Christian would ideally not fall into apostasy, If they had the oil to light the straight and narrow path Christ paved. Christ's foundation, involves all His teachings, its the only way to weather to storm, or flood to come ..

OtherWay210 · Dec 25, 2017

Christ's return, involves events that would take many off guard as to what was going on, as a thief always does .

Christ is Not referring to Himself alone . But reminding us about all that He said about it .Like the signs He said to Watch for .
.
It's Not meant to be a catch phrase, for a false doctrine .

Paul explains this in a clear explanation here :

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

To the ignorant and lost Those who have false doctrines of peace, and safety . Rather than learn the gospel armor in mind, to stand .

Instead the thought is the time is a generally very negative for the rest of a the world, its as a thief for those who would not accept the love of the truth .
its what the Tribulation is about .

Again : All he taught, comes upon the unformed, lost, confused, deceived, people of the world, as a thief. Christ told us before the fact to prepare for it .

Hes not saying its a positive .........

OtherWay210 · Dec 25, 2017

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth,
and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked,
and they see his shame.

Again, in the context of a false Christ, Christ's actual, arrival would take many by surprise,
because of Satan's Tribulation, which the entire book of Revelation is warning about .

Lets not take the warning to the churches there out of the full scope and context.
In order to fit a made up one .

Considering Matthew, 24, Watch, the garments, is the righteousness of the saints,
which one cannot be said to have, if they fell into apostasy ;
due to neglecting to watch for the signs ; like false-Messiah etc .
The result, is the shame, of those Christians praying for mountains to fall on them

That is the shame he is referring to in addressing these groups of believers

Christ address, to the church of Sardis fills in further exactly what is going on here

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

For further context read 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

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