You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

heartofdavid · Dec 27, 2017

No,we find judgement in both those instances. Not on the righteous.
We have the righteous removed PREJUDGEMENT.
You have no case no matter how clever you try to re-invent the word judgement.

If you need a pot trib removal of the saints, Lot and Noah are bad choices to prove that point.
You really NEED a post trib ,post judgement DELIVERANCE.

What is bizarre is that you think Lot went through the judgement by the angels and THEN came out of the city.
You also defend the "truth" that AFTER the flood noah was removed.

Pretrib is so easy to defend.

heartofdavid · Dec 28, 2017

abcdef said:

Hi davida,

Well, I think that the judgments were already made.

Maybe you want to say that they were saved from the wrath of God, and I agree with you on that.

In Noah's case, he was delivered from the flood waters. In Lot's case the destruction of fire.

--------

When was the tribulation of Noah? The time before the flood, or after the flood began, when God shut the door on the ark and His wrath was poured out (the withdrawing of blessings on the earth, and the waters came flooding in)?

The time of Noah's trouble was before he was evacuated. He lived with sin of the worst kind, it seems that it was about everything evil that you could imagine. Things that corrupted even the very flesh of the animals and plants. Everything living that Noah knew about in his world. Perhaps even the very earth itself, was filled with the blood of righteous men calling from the earth.

It may have been that Noah was the last Jehovah worshiper of the human souls that was left. Alone in worship, except for his family, the outlook for the worship of the true God by the human souls was looking,.....bad. The temptation to give up and give in to sin was probably greater for Noah's family, especially if Noah was to pass away.

Oh, and then God tells Noah to build this huge ark, I bet that was something to see Noah's face when he learned that!

So Noah had to resist sin, keep his family close, fight off ridicule, and obey God to save the entire race of human souls. I would say that would be great trouble.

What about after the flood came? When Noah was in the ark? Was he confident in faith towards God, that God had prepared a plan? Was there temptation like there was before the flood began? Was there sin like there was before the flood began? What sin and temptation was there now?

Once Noah was evacuated, and under the protection of God, he had nothing to fear, really.

But what happened to the human souls who didn't get in the ark? Did any survive? Did any survive the wrath of God?

1 Peter 3:1-13, 7, 12, 13. This heavens and earth are reserved for fire. Who will escape the fire of God when the elements melt with intense heat? No one will, except those in the ark covenant of Jesus.

We will escape, but then it is the new heavens and earth of eternity, after we are changed.

---

When was the tribulation of Lot? The time before the evacuation or after he left the cities?

Lot was in the same situation as Noah, his righteous soul was vexed every day because of sin and temptation, for himself and his family. He was getting pulled into temptation every day. He may have been some kind of marketer, who had to interact with the people around him, he might have been making so much money that it was hard to get out. If he didn't leave, it meant his eternal soul.

Once he left, temptation like he had known was gone, sin like he had known was gone.

Who in the cities survived the wrath of God when Lot left? It may be assumed that God did not withdraw His blessings until Lot left. He blessed the cities by not destroying them while Lot was there.

Who will survive the fire from God that melts the elements with intense heat and brings us to the new heavens and earth? Only the ones who are evacuated with the angels at the rapture/resurrection (rapt/resur).

---

So the trouble was before the evacuation for Noah and Lot, they were saved from the wrath of God.

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Now here is where the problem lies, some think, that after we are rapt/resurrected, that there will be survivors. But there will not be any one who survives the fire from heaven, after Jesus comes for the kingdom.

That's like saying, "I'll wait until the door is shut and it starts to rain, then I'll become a Christian." Or, "I'll wait until after Lot and his family leave and the fire starts to fall, then I'll become a Christian."

People think that they can wait until after Jesus comes for the kingdom to be saved, then they will not need faith, they will have proof. They will not turn to Jesus until then. But then it will be too late. The wrath of fire will end the time of earth.

---

When the time of trouble is over, then it is the time for wrath.

Why were they in such a big hurry then?

The wrath was on the way, they had to hurry to escape.

What if Lot had said, "Hey let's stop and pick up some bagels for the trip, and some coffee to go."

Or maybe, "Let's just stop at the top of this hill, and look back, one more time," would God have spared him?

Just admit you are wrong.

You have absolutely no traction in all that side stepping.

heartofdavid · Dec 28, 2017

cleverness is always a sign God is not in it.

abcdef · Dec 28, 2017

heartofdavid said:

Noah, Gen 6:5-8,

The judgment of the wicked before the flood, v 7, "And the Lord said,I will destroy man..."

The judgment of Noah before the flood, v 8, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

The judgment of the righteous before the flood, Gen 7:1, "...; for thee have I seen righteousness before me in this generation."

--

Lot, 1 Pet 2:7-8,

The judgment of the righteous before the fire, V 8, "..., vexed his righteous soul from day to day..."

The judgment of the wicked before the fire, V 8, "...with their unlawful deeds;.."

They were removed Pre wrath, the judgment was made long before the wrath.

Wrath and judgment are 2 different things.

When you stand in court and the judge decides, that is the judgment.

When you go to jail and serve time, that is the wrath.

You are saying that when the judge makes his decision, that is the wrath.

Both show post judgment, post trib, pre wrath, deliverance.

God had already judged Lot and the city, the angels were only messengers.

Noah was evacuated before the wrath flood.

Pre trib can't be sustained in a serious and detailed discussion.

abcdef · Dec 28, 2017

heartofdavid said:

I think that you are the one who is "side stepping".

The best you can do is just make little comments that are without substance.

abcdef · Dec 28, 2017

heartofdavid said:

Is that what you are trying to do, be clever?

So tell me then, who is the iron legs/toes of the statue in Dan 2?

Where are we now in the time of the statue?

Get out your Bible and defend pretrib if it's so easy.

FlyingDove · Dec 28, 2017

vs 39 I read where Noah (righteous) was rescued. Those left experienced God's wrath. Noah spent over 100 ys warning them.

Vs 40 one was taken, from danger like Noah. One was left to experience wrath.

abcdef · Dec 28, 2017

FlyingDove said:

Hello FlyingDove,

Welcome to CC!

I see it as more like 8 were saved, and perhaps 10,000's died, yes?

FlyingDove · Dec 28, 2017

Hello,
Thx, for the greeting. A couple verses come to mind:

Matt 7:14 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Lk 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

MarcR · Dec 28, 2017

louis said:

Jesus told the Church: Jn 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
KJV
There is a difference between the tribulation that Jesus said the Church would experience throughout its history; and the Great Tribulation in the end tines. If Jesus stood on the Mount of Olives in 70A.D. and it clave in two leaving a rift valley; where is the rift valley today?

Here is what will take place after the rapture, and the Great Tribulation:

Zec 14:1-9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
KJV

MarcR · Dec 28, 2017

Mt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

How can anyone expect a post trib rapture if immediately after the tribulation the elect are to be gathered from heaven NOT earth. This strongly suggests that since we will already be in heaven; we must have arrived earlier.

Bookends · Dec 28, 2017

joaniemarie said:

Once a believers mind is open to the truth., they see the pattern of the grace of God in Christ traced all through the way God is dealing and will deal with us His beloved sons and daughters. Of course we will not be "partaking" in God's wrath. The wrath and judgment of God was already taken 100% for us in Christ. We have nothing to fear from our Father because we are now in the Son. He has made provision for us in all areas.

This is not a weaklings fearful dreaded attempt and hope of escaping by the skin of our teeth the wrath to come as some accuse. But a profound outworking of faith in the love and watch care God has for us in His Son Jesus.

There is so much to our salvation that we have yet to learn and experience. That is why our salvation is called a so GREAT a salvation. Jesus has done more than we can even imagine. His gift is even unspeakable but we have to keep speaking about it and even though we can't tell it all we have to tell what we keep learning.

The pattern is that the wicked unbelieving enemies of God are always taken in death, 2 main examples but there are more; 1. the flood in Noah's day, 2. Sodom and Gomarrah.

abcdef · Dec 28, 2017

MarcR said:

The great trib of Israel is over. It ended when Israel was restored to Jerusalem. That is when the Roman iron beast lost power over Israel. Paul said it was the last days when he wrote in Heb 1:2.

Jesus did stand on the Mount of Olives. The valley was the way of salvation for people who believed the words of Jesus.
The way of eternal salvation, and the saving from the dest of Jeru spoken of here.

OK, so you say that this takes place at the end of the 7 yr trib.

There are quite a few different "day of the Lord" passages. Against Babylon, Egypt, Edom, Jerusalem, and others.
Then there is the day of the Lord against the world.

Which day is this? V 2, Jerusalem. So is this the 70 ad., "day of the Lord? Or the final day of the Lord?

You say the day of the Lord at the end of the 7 yrs.

Well let's see, all nations come to battle against Jerusalem, that could go either way. But why would all nations come against Jerusalem, if the Antichrist was ruling the world from Jerusalem?
--
The city is taken, the women etc., Well, isn't this supposed to happen in the middle of the trib? Where the woman (Rev 12) flees into the wilderness for the 3 1/2t's?

Or is this the beginning of the trib according to Matt 24?

But you say the end of the trib.
--

Half the city will go into captivity. How can they be taken away into captivity at the end of the trib when Jesus comes back?

What is the weapon of Jesus? The gospel sword. (Rev 19)

Why would the people flee when Jesus stands on the Mount? They should be running towards Jesus and safety, why are they fleeing?

Living waters? The Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

The living waters flow out to the seas of the gentile nations.

Jesus is king now. He has all power in heaven and in earth. He rules now.

===

So if this passage is future, at the end of the 7 yrs, why are the people fleeing?

Why are all nations attacking Jerusalem when the Antichrist has world wide control?

Why would the people continue to flee away from Jesus after He returns, through a valley split?

Wasn't this supposed to happen mid trib for 3 1/2 yrs??

Or at the beginning of the trib as in Matt 24?

heartofdavid · Dec 28, 2017

abcdef said:

Noah, Gen 6:5-8,

The judgment of the wicked before the flood, v 7, "And the Lord said,I will destroy man..."

The judgment of Noah before the flood, v 8, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

The judgment of the righteous before the flood, Gen 7:1, "...; for thee have I seen righteousness before me in this generation."

--

Lot, 1 Pet 2:7-8,

The judgment of the righteous before the fire, V 8, "..., vexed his righteous soul from day to day..."

The judgment of the wicked before the fire, V 8, "...with their unlawful deeds;.."

They were removed Pre wrath, the judgment was made long before the wrath.

Wrath and judgment are 2 different things.

When you stand in court and the judge decides, that is the judgment.

When you go to jail and serve time, that is the wrath.

You are saying that when the judge makes his decision, that is the wrath.

Both show post judgment, post trib, pre wrath, deliverance.

God had already judged Lot and the city, the angels were only messengers.

Noah was evacuated before the wrath flood.

Pre trib can't be sustained in a serious and detailed discussion.

Write a book "My own little world where "judgement" is what I make it"

heartofdavid · Dec 28, 2017

MarcR said:

Mt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

How can anyone expect a post trib rapture if immediately after the tribulation the elect are to be gathered from heaven NOT earth. This strongly suggests that since we will already be in heaven; we must have arrived earlier.

BULLSEYE!!!

Right down the middle.

abcdef · Dec 28, 2017

MarcR said:

Brother MarcR,

I have found these paticular verses to be very interesting.

The reason is, that they could be a reference to the end of the times of the gentiles (ToG's). Lk 21:20-24, 24.

(For me, the ToG's are from 70 ad until 1967 when Israel was returned to military control over Jerusalem.)

==

Vs 1-3, the setting and 3 questions.

Vs 4-13, The persecution of the 4 apostles, Mk 13:3-13.

V 14, Col 1:23 "Every creature". Acts 2:5 "Every nation under heaven".

Vs 15-22, Lk 21:20-24

25-26, False Christ's and teachers

27-28, Death follows His coming. This is not a resurrection coming, but God destroyed Jerusalem with the Roman iron dragon beast. Clouds of armies.

V 29, After the trib/trouble of the dest of Jerusalem (70 ad)

The dest of Jerusalem was only the end of the beginning, of the time of trouble for Israel. It lasted for another 1900 years.
The statue of Dan. 2 shows an extensive rule of Rome over Israel. The time of the Roman iron rule started in 67 bc., but when did it end? The statue shows a time much longer than 67 bc until 70 ad., 137 yrs approx.. The legs extend further than all the other nations (gold, silver, brass) put together. So the time of the iron extends further than that.

It shows a time after the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad., But what about the time after 70 ad? Why is it missing from the most commonly accepted theories of this day? Who is the iron beast? Rome.

So these verses may be talking about the time after the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad. This would also be known as the ToG's. Lk21:20-24, 24.

The sun is the Law, and the moon is the prophets. when Israel was killed and fled, the light of God's word to the world was dimmed. John 5:39.

Remember the scripture that showed that the stars are Israel? Rev 12.

Jesus is given all power.

Here it gets interesting. This sign said to be in reference to the dest of Jeru by some. But I'm not so sure. It says a sign in heaven. But if the stars are Israel, wouldn't the stars returning to restore Jerusalem, after the times of the gentiles is over, be a sign in the heavens?

The 12 tribes of Israel? Again, not so sure. But it does fit some what.

Is this the coming for the dest of Jerusalem? Or the 7th trumpet? Or the 5th trumpet?

This shows a gathering. A gathering after the dest of Jerusalem.

Th elect are mentioned also in v 22. It says that the days will be shortened for the elect's sake, or there would be no "flesh" (Israel) saved. (Jacob's trouble)

So this gathering shows that at the end of the trib. (1967), that began at the dest of Jeru., the ToG's, that Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

The trumpet is the 5th trumpet, that calls for Israel to separate from the gentile nations and return, to control of Jerusalem.

They are gathered from earth, from one end of the heavens, as far as the known world is, to the other end of the known world. Acts 2:5, On the day of Pentecost, there were Israelites there from, "...every nation under heaven." Every nation of the world known to Israel at that time.

Th elect are on earth, and in the flesh v 22.

abcdef · Dec 28, 2017

heartofdavid said:

Just another empty post with no scripture, poor thing.

abcdef · Dec 28, 2017

MarcR said:

Brother MarcR,

So which coming is this?

The one at the beginning of the trib? Nobody is supposed to see Him, except the saved, right? This is the beginning of the trib? They flee the Antichrist?

Mid trib? Again they see Him. The woman of Rev 12, must be in the gentile nations for the 3 1/2 t's

The end of the 7 years? Why are they fleeing now, for the 3 1/2 t's?

Does this match up with Zech 14:1-9?

Could it be the 70 ad dest?

louis · Jan 1, 2018

MarcR said:

I'm kind of the opinion that the tribulation the Lord mentions is in regards to all true Christians through the ages whose spiritual nature infuriates the carnally minded into persecuting them (John 15:20; Galatians 4:29;Romans 8:7).

John 15:20 [FONT=&quot]Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.[/FONT]

Galatians 4:29 [FONT=&quot]But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[/FONT]
Romans 8:7 [FONT=&quot]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[/FONT]

OtherWay210 · Jan 1, 2018

Revelation is symbolic with its language. you'd have to note what the symbolism means .

Rev 13 shows whats going on, they worshiped the Dragon. Further reading explains, by means of the miracles he had power to do, he deceives them that dwell on the earth . We just have to take it for what it says. People fall over each other for celebrities. Satan will have the world eating out of his hands.

Given the fact Christ shortened the time, id simply transpose those days into years in revelation 12. Daniels days, equate to years after all .The wilderness, will have a place, prepared of God, in the development into the Christians nations of the day, its a place where the faithful are fed Gods words. That time would bring us to the time the US, started to develop as a world power..

The illustrations of natural disasters, is really a spiritual disaster, on the state of souls.

. We're taking about an attack on the state of the soul.

Many in the forum, i recommend reading the bible without commentaries. Because those commentaries, are really confusing the passages.

Revelation is prophecy. For those who believe otherwise. Its prophecy .The first chapter opens up with that statement . And John informs the reader, he's not writing from ad 96 ..

You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

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