You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

abcdef · Dec 21, 2017

shrume,

Lk 17:30, "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

The verses following that statement describe the fall of Jerusalem in 70 ad, Lk 17;30-37.

It is the fulfillment of Ezek ch 5.

And shows that when Jesus is "revealed" it will end in slavery and death for the natural branches.

shrume · Dec 21, 2017

abcdef said:

I do not agree. Luke 17:30-37 concern the future trib.

Eze 5 concerns the trib.

Are you claiming Jesus was "revealed" in 70 AD?

I hope not..

There is nothing you, Plainword, or Locutus can say that will convince me that Preterism, or partial Preterism, is true.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 21, 2017

shrume said:

Not "the entire book". The first three chapters pertain to what happened right then. And even with the seals, if you compare them with the Olivet Discourse, the first five seals were operational from the first century and are progressively getting worse. The 6th and 7th seals are reserved for the future (which may not be too far away).

"The things which have been" = the development of apostasy in the Apostolic churches

"The things which are" = the current status of the seven churches in Asia Minor (chapters 1-3)

The things which shall be hereafter = prediction of future events (chapters 4-22).

abcdef · Dec 21, 2017

shrume said:

The one taken is a slave, the one left behind is dead.

Yes, but the trib begins when Israel rejects the kingdom and is broken off. and ends when the natural branches are restored to military control of Jerusalem, Lk 21:20-24.

Look, it was revealed By the dest of Jeru that Jesus is God, because only God could do that.

But it wasn't a resurrection coming as the preterists claim.

Jesus let himself be shown many times after His resurrection.

But they weren't resurrection comings.

There are only 2 resurrections, Jesus and those at His coming 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24. Then it is the end.

The 2nd resurrection unto salvation has not happened yet, that is where Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom.

Then you shouldn't be afraid to talk about it, if you are so sure.

Only what the truth is, is what matters, not who says it.

If you get into the details, pre-trib falls apart. The beast is Rome.

Both pre-trib and preterists have something in common,

They both deny that the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist.

(Please don't associate me with the Locust, I don't play troll games like him.)

Nehemiah6 · Dec 21, 2017

abcdef said:

Everyone should deny that the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist. Rome is NOT Jerusalem, and St. Peter's is NOT the Jewish Temple. Furthermore, the pope never has -- and will never have -- absolute control of the world for forty two months (3 1/2 years). So it is time to totally JETTISON that false notion.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months...And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:5,7,8).

shrume · Dec 21, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

I believe the entire book concerns the future.

I believe the seven churches are churches that will exist during the trib. The "flavor" of the letters is Jewish, not Christian. In a couple of them, Jesus warns that they must "endure to the end" to be saved". Christians have the guarantee of salvation. The letters are written to the "angel of the church at xxxx". The epistles to the Christian churches are written to the churches, not to the "angel of the church". The use of other terms, like candlesticks, lampstands, synogogue, are decidedly Jewish, and not Christian.

Rev 6:
1) And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

^^ who was on the first horse, and when did it happen?

3) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

^^ While you could argue that the world has been at war in some form since the first century, I believe it's speaking about the future, when wars will be much more apparent and encompass the world.

5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

^^ When has there been a world-wide famine?

7) And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

^^ When has 1/4 of the world's population been killed?

I believe the book of Revelation provides closure to all the things prophesied in the OT about "Daniel's 70th week", the "day of the Lord", the "time of Jacob's trouble". AKA the great tribulation. While we can certainly learn a lot from it, it is not addressed to Christians. We will have been raptured to Christ.

But I do agree with you that it might not be too far away. I believe time is short. We'll see.

shrume · Dec 21, 2017

abcdef said:

I get that is what you believe, but it does not say that.

The trib will begin after God decides to send Jesus back to gather his church.

No, the Romans did.

It wasn't a "coming" at all.

That's right. But he has not returned yet.

There are three times people will be raised from the dead. Or if you're going to count the resurrection of Jesus, four.

1) Jesus resurrection
2) the rapture of the Christian church, when dead Christians will be raised from the dead (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff).
3) the resurrection of the just, which will happen at the end of the trib/beginning of the millennial kingdom (Rev 20:4ff).
4) the resurrection of the unjust, which will happen after the millennial kingdom (Rev 20:112ff).

Jesus will return to take possession of the earth and set up the millennial kingdom at the end of the trib. Then is when the resurrection of the just will occur.

I'm not afraid to talk about it. It was simply a statement of fact.

Agreed. Preterism is not true.

I do not agree.

Also disagree.

If that is what Preterists believe, they got something right.

Despite the friction between you, your beliefs are very similar.

abcdef · Dec 21, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

Rome is the iron legs and the 10 toes, the iron has been here all along.

The BoR is the "head" of the iron, even at this present day.

The idea that Rome is not here is against the iron of the statue.

I'm not clear about what you are saying.

But the seat of the beast is Rome.

It is Israel, control over Israel, not all the gentile nations on the planet. It's the time of Jacob's trouble.

The 42 months is symbolic of half of the 7 times, see that it never says 7 years, it is 7 times.

It is not a literal 7 years.

The 7 times are a time set by God, not understood until it is revealed Daniel ch 4.

The time of the Roman (iron legs/toes) rule over Israel is much longer than 3 1/2 yrs., it lasted for centuries.

How long is the time period of the iron legs/toes of the statue in Dan 2?

abcdef · Dec 21, 2017

shrume said:

Ezek 5 says it plainly, and you agree that it is talking about the same thing as Lk 17, so it plainly says that they will die by the sword and famine.

Oh, and they don't use swords anymore, they use bombs and guns, so it won't be future.

Show me where it says that.

God brought the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem, just as He did with Babylon and many other armies.

Jesus returned many times, on the road, in the room, to many at once, Saul/Paul on the road.

What you are saying contradicts 1 Cor 15:23-28.

Paul says that there are only 2 resurrections, not 4.

Jesus, and those at his coming.

Jesus already has all power in heaven and earth, he already has possession of the earth,Satan can only do what heaven allows him to do.

The kingdom was already established on earth at Pentecost.

When Jesus comes to take those who are His, then it is the end.

Not everything was fulfilled by 70ad, but much was.

The beast can ONLY, ONLY, be Rome.

You also have fallen for the lies of the BoR.

Who is the iron legs/toes?

Who was the iron 500 years ago?

Who is the iron right now?

I know, and it's kinda scary.

He is so far out there, he's really not even a very good preterist.

Zone and old hermit are far better.

Locutus · Dec 21, 2017

All this futurist posturing over the "rapture" is wrong - Paul is telling the Thessalonians that the man of sin was alive and "well" and being restrained when he wrote to them, therefore the man of sin and the "rapture" can only be a 1st century phenomena.

The man of sin was being restrained in Paul's day - the guy has not lived for nearly 2000 years, neither has he re-appeared in some sort of spiritual "incarnation" of evil.

2 Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

2 Th 2:5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

2 Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Failure to take heed of the audience to which Paul wrote (google audience relevance) leads to all sorts of fawlty interpretation and outrageous speculation.

Why would Paul be "telling you these things"if the man of sin would not be revealed 1900 years and counting later?

Nehemiah6 · Dec 22, 2017

Locutus said:

Because Paul was prophesying about future events, just like Christ was prophesying about the Abomination of Desolation in a future temple at Jerusalem, with the full knowledge that Herod's temple would be destroyed. There are many prophesies in Paul's epistles, and some in the other epistles also.

The Man of Sin will claim to be God and will also do some mighty satanic miracles to "prove" that he is God. But he will present himself as the true Messiah -- the Christ whom the Jews are waiting for. At the same time he will dazzle the whole world, which willbe deceived into worshiping him. None of this happened in any preceding time period. So just get rid of your Preterist notions, and start with a clean slate.

Inquistor · Dec 22, 2017

shrume said:

You have GOT to be kidding! Who is Revelation 12:4 talking about, other than Mary (the mother of Jesus), and Jesus is the child being born, and the dragon is Satan, and one third of the stars are the fallen angels? How long ago did all those things happen ... or are they all in "the future?"

Locutus · Dec 22, 2017

Google "audience relevance" and get yourself educated and quit with the crazy speculation N6.

stillness · Dec 22, 2017

Interpreting begins with admitting we don't know, "If any man thinks he knows he does not know as he should." Not about understanding but knowing in our hearts." If we think we know we stop learning. Once, the Lord told me, "Let these sayings sink into your ears," Eventually looked up where He said this in the bible, "The son of man must be betrayed in the hands of sinners." Why do you think Jesus would tell His disciples and me to let this saying sink into their ears? Unless following Him, also ends betrayed into the hands of sinners: Isn't this why Peter was afraid and denied the Lord, until empowered by the Holy Spirit. There is a falling away before the end, where those who are immature will fall away from the faith. Where what happened in Jerusalem will happen worldwide. Doesn't mean they are lost, "Some will be saved as through fire but will lose their reward," "A better resurrection."

Many see glimpses of this time of trouble before the end. "Trouble and distress on every soul who does evil, first to the Jews, then to the gentiles. Few can see Daniel 8:23 as the fulfilment of this to the Jews in the second word war. Likewise few are willing to see that there is a time of trouble such as never was in my lifetime, in Daniel 12. Admitting also that understanding this does not mean we know. "Now we know in part and see dimly." There are rumors including my own of this coming year but what do we know?

stillness · Dec 22, 2017

Inquistor said:

About a wedding in heaven. "The New Jerusalem witch is the Mother of us all." "If we suffer with Him we shall rule with Him." Spiritual things don't have past present and future in the same way as things on earth: At the speed of light there is no time, as we know it on earth. "God dwells in u unapproachable light that no man can approach to." Just as the days of creation are "The evening and morning are a day, there has to be ending and begging. Jesus had to make an end of sin in His death and Resurrection, for the new heaven is in His Resurrection. there is still a war going on in the present heaven where we live.

Ahwatukee · Dec 22, 2017

Hello stillness,

We can know when the time of trouble begins because in Matt.24:15 Jesus in quoting Daniel, identifies it as beginning from the time that the abomination is set up and continues throughout that last 3 1/2 years until Christ returns to the earth to end the age. We know this also, because in Dan.9:27 it is revealed that the abomination will be set up in the middle of the seven years, which causes Israel to flee out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which again is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And prior to that, the antichrist must establish that seven years allowing Israel to build her temple. Therefore, the seven year agreement must be established before the world will see that time of trouble, which takes place 3 1/2 years after the seven years is initiated.

Ahwatukee · Dec 22, 2017

Inquistor said:

Hello Inquisitor,

According to scripture, the woman of Revelation 12 is representing the nation Israel. Please see the following scripture:

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven starswere bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Stars = Twelve tribes of Israel

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars = the nation Israel

louis · Dec 22, 2017

abcdef said:

Chapters 1 through 3 apply to the church's of John's time, but also apply to the church's through today.
Chapters 4 through 22, however, apply to the hereafter following the first century AD.
As the book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD, and the destruction of Jerusalem was circa 70 AD, why would the Lord have to break open the sixth seal to see what would occur in the future, if it had already occurred in the past?
Events under the sixth seal occur after the first century AD, as the Word to John in Revelation 4:1 indicates.

louis · Dec 22, 2017

stillness said:

The great falling away before the end is also referred to in Hebrews 12:26-27 when the Lord shakes both earth and heaven. The purpose of the Lord shaking earth and heaven is to remove all the things made, which are liars, and not true. On earth, those who profess to believe in Christs Way, will be shaken out; while in heaven, the devil along with his angels will be cast out into the earth (Revelation 12:9).

Hebrews 12:26 [FONT=&quot]Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[/FONT]

Ahwatukee · Dec 22, 2017

Morning Louis,

I am in agreement with everything that you said except for the following:

The key to understanding the chronology of the stages of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru Rev.1:19

What is now = The letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church

What will take place later = The events which take place after "what is now" i.e. after the church period.

The word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Within those same chapters we do not see the word "hagios" translated as "saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward only the word hagios/saints is used but the word Ekklesia/church is never used again.

Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church when John hears that voice which says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." The church is gathered here, which is why we don't see the word used any longer. It is not until Rev.19:6-8 where the church is alluded to as the bride where she is receiving her find linen and the wedding of the Lamb. The word Ekklesia/church however, does not appear again until Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

Regarding the seals, they have not and could not have yet taken place and that because 1). Jesus is the One opening them being apart of God's wrath and 2). the first seal, the rider on the white horse is representing the antichrist and he has yet to be revealed. All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place during that last seven years, which is why Jesus said if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive. The result of the 4th seal alone causes the fatalities of a fourth of the earth, which based on our present population would be over 1.7 billion.

Because believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, we then must be removed prior to the first seal being opened. In addition to this, Jesus said that all of these events would take place in the last generation.

You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member