The Rapture

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KJV1611 said:
Right, but look at the timing. The day of Lord happens when the Lord's sacrifice is made. Jesus is the Lord's sacrifice, it happened at the first coming... That means the day of the Lord took place at the first coming, and it can't be denied unless Jesus is going to be sacrificed AGAIN. Do you see what I'm saying?
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Yes, it appears to be Jesus is the Lord's sacrifice here, and He will never be sacrificed again. So it appears the day of the Lord started with Jesus' death and is still going on until He returns.
 
RickyZ said:
And how would one do this when you won't even consider the opposing argument? You can't be corrected when your mind is made up and set in stone.
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My mind isn't made up, I'm going by what the bible says. The Lords sacrifice was at the day of the Lord, how can I be convinced that this is talking about something in the future? Show me scripture that says Christ will be crucified again or that the Lord's sacrifice is something other than the sacrifice of his son and I will believe it. I'm not closed minded but my mind can only be changed with scripture.
 
Burninglight said:
Yes, it appears to be Jesus is the Lord's sacrifice here, and He will never be sacrificed again. So it appears the day of the Lord started with Jesus' death and is still going on until He returns.
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I'm glad you see it! Now can you explain why it's still going on until he returns again? I've been saing all along that the day of the Lord is not the day of Christ. Maybe what you are calling the day of Lord continuing is actually the day of Christ.
 
Willie-T said:
There's something wrong with employees who suddenly start scurrying around because the boss is coming. That is admitting to slacking off when you thought the boss wasn't looking.
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True,in a perfect world.

Jesus seemed to favor the imperfect.

We all can admit to cleaning up when company is coming.
Amen?
 
Ahwatukee said:
"They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.
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I said they weren't flying scorpions. It could've been helicopters with nerve agents and weapons that the prophet was trying to describe.

Ahwatukee said:
The point that I am making is that, you are debating about things that you know nothing about. You say they don't have wings, yet I just presented the scripture that says they do.
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But they weren't flying scorpions with wings. I am not saying nothing flies.

Ahwatukee said:
I assure you that I am not grasping at straws. You just don't know the difference between the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him vs. the day of the Lord, which the wrath of God and which is what Paul was talking about when he said, "that day (the wrath of God) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
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I know what the difference is to pretibulationist, but the day of the Lord started at the beginning of the last days is culminated in Jesus' second return; the day of the Lord, and our gathering together unto Him is all one event. There is no secret return of Christ; that is exactly what Paul was warning believers about (to not be shaken by this teaching and Jesus warns don't believe it when they tell you he is in a secret chamber).

There'll be no secret rapture return of Christ; Jesus warns us that every eye will see Him when He comes after the tribulation. Jesus is clear and Paul was clear. What you are sharing is convoluted to say the least.
Ahwatukee said:
Regarding Darby, this is just a popular apologetic that you and others continue to repeat over and over to discredit those of us who believe in the Lord's promise to keep us out of the hour of wrath and take us back to the Father's house. As I have said so many times, neither Darby, nor MacDonald, nor Scofield are responsible for the teaching that the gathering of the church takes place prior to God's wrath, but is scriptural. I have never read anything by any of those people, yet I came to this conclusion from comparing and cross-referencing scripture.
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I believe the Lord will keep us from His wrath. No one argues this. We just don't bel8ieve it happens with a pretribulation rapture because that goes against Scripture.

Ahwatukee said:
Please explain to me Rev.17:14, 19:6-8 and 19:14. Who are they and when and where are they descending from?
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[SUP]14 [/SUP]They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
After the antichrist reigns down his terror on believers sometime shortly there after Jesus will return and the antichrist will be defeated. this doesn't say anything about pretribulation rapture. You are only making inferences. It is the same with the rest of those verses.
 
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Burninglight said:
I said they weren't flying scorpions. It could've been helicopters with nerve agents and weapons that the prophet was trying to describe.

But they weren't flying scorpions with wings. I am not saying nothing flies.

I know what the difference is to pretibulationist, but the day of the Lord started at the beginning of the last days is culminated in Jesus' second return; the day of the Lord, and our gathering together unto Him is all one event. there is no secret return of Christ that is what Paul was warning believers to not be shaken by this teaching and Jesus warns don't believe it when they tell you he is in a secret chamber. There be no secret rapture return of Christ; Jesus warns us that every eye will see Him when He comes after the tribulation. Jesus is clear and Paul was clear. What you are sharing is convoluted to say the least.
I believe the Lord will keep us from His wrath. No one argues this. We just don't bel8ieve it happens with a pretribulation rapture because that goes against Scripture.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
After the antichrist reigns down his terror on believers sometime shortly there after Jesus will return and the antichrist will be defeated. this doesn't say anything about pretribulation rapture. You are only making inferences. It is the same with the rest of those verses.
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It says in rev all die refusing the mark.

So,if Jesus knows what he is talking about,who do you see "protected" and passing through the GT.?

Just walk in our shoes for a few steps and see you are on the wrong track.

You are not considering our position brother.
 
It's beginning to look to me like the coming of the Son of man and the coming of Christ are 2 different things.
 
KJV1611 said:
Come on, don't you know who the Lord's sacrfice was? The Jews... seriously you believe the Jews were the Lord's sacrifice? You know when you punish someone for their wickedness, they are not a sacrifice.
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Here is a good resource if you want to see what various scholars have to say on a particular verse. I don't always agree with them but in this case I do.

Zephaniah 1:8 Commentaries: "Then it will come about on the day of the LORD'S sacrifice That I will punish the princes, the king's sons And all who clothe themselves with foreign garments.



 
J7 said:
'Zebach' means Passover, or annual sacrifice.....
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So where did you get that Zebach from? Definately not from a Hebrew Dictionary:



Hebrew NASB Number: 6453

Hebrew Word: [FONT=&quot]‏פֶּסַח‎[/FONT]

Transliterated Word: pesach (820a)
Root: from 6452a;

Definition: passover:--


New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
 
KJV1611 said:
My mind isn't made up, I'm going by what the bible says. The Lords sacrifice was at the day of the Lord, how can I be convinced that this is talking about something in the future? Show me scripture that says Christ will be crucified again or that the Lord's sacrifice is something other than the sacrifice of his son and I will believe it. I'm not closed minded but my mind can only be changed with scripture.
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When you see "sacrifice" used in association with the Day of the Lord(s), think "slaughter" not redemption. The passage starting in Zec 11:4 is all about the coming slaughter of Jerusalem ~ 70 AD as is Isa 65:12-14. In all OT examples, the "Day of the Lord" was accompanied by the presence of God to execute judgment upon Egypt, Babylon and Edom. The "Day of Christ" was Christ's presence come to execute judgment upon rejecting Jerusalem just as He stated He would do over, and over and over.

I don't understand why nobody has a problem with God appearing to punish in the OT in at least 3 occasions, but cannot come to grips with the idea that Christ did it once in 70 AD. After all, Jerusalem was the city He founded when He came as Melchizedek (Salem). They are the ones who rejected Him as their king, killed Him and then worshiped another King.
 
KJV1611 said:
It's beginning to look to me like the coming of the Son of man and the coming of Christ are 2 different things.
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WOW, and just when I had given up on you ever understanding that. GOD amazes me again.
 
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