Not By Works

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PHart said:
In this context 'going back to the law' means trying to be justified by the law. Paul made it clear that the issue was in regard to trying to be justified by the law, not simply keeping the law.

Galatians 5:4 NASB
...you who are seeking to be justified by law...

'Going back to the law' does not mean choosing to honor and worship God, whom you love, by observing a Sabbath, or a Festival. It would be terribly hypocritical of Paul to chastise the Galatians for simply wanting to observe the law since he himself observed the law. The point of contention with the Galatians is they were trying to be justified by observance of the law. That's the no-no.
Click to expand...

Galatians 2 shows us quite well that Paul was not following any part of the law...because he withstood Peter to his face for his hypocrisy...He observed a Purification ritual with 4 other men who had taken a vow in Acts 21 as a favor to keep peace with the Jewish Elders......and if you observe Acts 21-22 carefully, you will see the plan of the Elders backfired, because the very Jews that the elders wanted to pacify...still grabbed Paul....that means something, but you either purposefully do not want tot talk about or you have outright missed....you seem to be trying to paint Paul as a works based salvation believer because of your constant comments that he always observed the law....

1 Cor 9.20-23 refutes this contention of yours and unravels your Paul worked for his salvation and was OK with the Law doctrine...for the record....PAUL WAS A JEW...how many of you lawyers contending that gentiles are under the law do not get this!?!?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. [SUP]20 [/SUP]To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; [SUP]21 [/SUP]to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. [SUP]23 [/SUP]I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.


PS: Please stop the proof texting of verses to push something the truth of the scriptures do not reveal:
I cor 5.1-4 is the complete thought....

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.



not 1 Cor 5.4 proof texted:

Galatians 5:4 NASB
...you who are seeking to be justified by law...
 
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Meggido said:
If people keep the ceremonial laws of Moses to stay saved or think by keeping them they are saved they are wrong.

If they teach and preach to others they must keep them to stay saved or can only be saved by keeping the ceremonial laws they are wrong and it is a false teaching..and is exactly what Paul was preaching against....

Paul was observing the law of Moses in Acts 21 as a favor and request of the Jewish elders....he also did it with 4 men who were taking a vow and the fact they shaved their heads, means they were probably in the last steps of a Nazarite vow.....would you please include proper context in your remarks?


The only new covenant people I ever personally witnessed keeping the ceremonial laws of Moses are usually Messianic Jews who do so for the customs and heritage aspect only and are know without doubt that Messiah died on the cross for them.

Most of the others do it as a means of salvation or in attempt to keep salvation and many on this chat board, push this false teaching...
Click to expand...

Hi Meggido,

You know I usually agree with you. I've been reading along because I find PHart's posts very interesting and very intelligent and these are the type of posts I like to read.

As far as what you say above...

When you say that some want to keep the ceremonial laws to get saved or stay saved, it kind of reminds me of when persons say that I follow the Law to get or stay saved.

My feeling is that is someone loves God enough to follow ANY law for His sake, then surely they must be saved.

I feel very stronly that it's not our doctrine that saves us but Jesus.

If I worship on Saturday or Sunday, what difference could it possibley make? Every day is God's day.
If they feel that they should worship on Saturday - fine.
If they feel that those who worship on Sunday are lost --- well, that's fine too. The fact is they aren't.

This is not a salvation issue. It's unfortunate that some would think that it is.
Remember to keep Holy the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the day of rest. Jesus is now our rest. He was resurrected on a Sunday (maybe) and so the day was changed to Sunday.

My main comment is that our doctrine does not save us.
And if someone wants to keep the ceremonial Law (which was abolished) then they should feel free to and will get no argument from me.

Didn't Paul say he became all thngs to all people so that he may save some?
This must surely mean that Paul did not believe he was sinning by doing so...
1 Corinthians 9: 19-23
1 Corinthians 9:22
 
Meggido said:
DR-
Romans 1 is written about the gentiles and not the Jews.....Romans 2 is written about the Jews....Romans 3 is about all men
Click to expand...

Hi Megiddo,

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “ But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. Romans 1:16-19

Paul is speaking of Jew/Gentile. ALL men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When you read vs 16 and 17 above with 18 and 19, Paul is speaking of all mankind, not one group or the other, but all.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
How is congregating on the 7th day of the week vs the first day of the week spiritual?
Click to expand...
When you do it out of love and adoration and worship of God through the Holy Spirit,
Just like how congregating on the 1st day of the week is spiritual when done for that reason.
eternally-gratefull said:

The sabbath was not given for congregating by the way, It was given for mankind to rest, He was to work for 6 days, and on the seventh rest,

I find it amazing that so many pushing the 7th day do not even properly follow the seventh. nor understand what it means.
Click to expand...
We know exactly what the Jews were to do on the Sabbath. The law tells us. And it does include congregating:

Leviticus 23:3 NIV
3“ ‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly.

We do this on Sunday rather than on the designated Sabbath day now because the Catholics decided in their presumed Papal authority that it will be that way now rather than on the 7th day. They eventually declared that observing the ceremonial law of Moses was categorically and without exception 'anathema'. They did that out of envy of parishioners who were observing the Jewish meeting times and practices in preference to their invented meeting schedules and practices.

It's interesting to note that many of the church's doctrines like OSAS, predestination, and H-grace have their foundation in the church because of this single failure to understand the role of the law in New Covenant life. It all boils down to the church's lack of understanding about Paul's grace vs. law teaching. It has produced so many erroneous doctrines in the church. But I think this failure serves a purpose, like when the Samaritans broke off from Judaism and divided the ten tribes away from Israel into a polluted version of Judaism. In regard to this present Covenant, God is allowing the gentiles to do damage to the law to provoke the Jews to be zealous for the law. Imagine the consternation of a devout Orthodox Jew who sees us stupid gentiles change the Passover into a celebration centered around the practices of Ishtar a pagan goddess.
 
FranC said:
Hi Meggido,

You know I usually agree with you. I've been reading along because I find PHart's posts very interesting and very intelligent and these are the type of posts I like to read.

As far as what you say above...

When you say that some want to keep the ceremonial laws to get saved or stay saved, it kind of reminds me of when persons say that I follow the Law to get or stay saved.

My feeling is that is someone loves God enough to follow ANY law for His sake, then surely they must be saved.

I feel very stronly that it's not our doctrine that saves us but Jesus.

If I worship on Saturday or Sunday, what difference could it possibley make? Every day is God's day.
If they feel that they should worship on Saturday - fine.
If they feel that those who worship on Sunday are lost --- well, that's fine too. The fact is they aren't.

This is not a salvation issue. It's unfortunate that some would think that it is.
Remember to keep Holy the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the day of rest. Jesus is now our rest. He was resurrected on a Sunday (maybe) and so the day was changed to Sunday.

My main comment is that our doctrine does not save us.
And if someone wants to keep the ceremonial Law (which was abolished) then they should feel free to and will get no argument from me.

Didn't Paul say he became all thngs to all people so that he may save some?
This must surely mean that Paul did not believe he was sinning by doing so...
1 Corinthians 9: 19-23
1 Corinthians 9:22
Click to expand...

Fran...

If people keep the ceremonial laws, thinking keeping those laws and what Jesus did saves them, they are wrong...
If people keep the ceremonial laws out of obligation because they believe keeping them keeps from going to hell and saved, they are wrong...
If people keep the ceremonial laws out of obligation because they believe keeping them keeps rightoeus and saved, they are wrong... and are engaged in self-righteous works

JESUS + NOTHING YOU DO OR ADD=EVERYTHING
 
Meggido said:
If people keep the ceremonial laws of Moses to stay saved or think by keeping them they are saved they are wrong.

If they teach and preach to others they must keep them to stay saved or can only be saved by keeping the ceremonial laws they are wrong and it is a false teaching..and is exactly what Paul was preaching against....

Paul was observing the law of Moses in Acts 21 as a favor and request of the Jewish elders....he also did it with 4 men who were taking a vow and the fact they shaved their heads, means they were probably in the last steps of a Nazarite vow.....would you please include proper context in your remarks?


The only new covenant people I ever personally witnessed keeping the ceremonial laws of Moses are usually Messianic Jews who do so for the customs and heritage aspect only and are know without doubt that Messiah died on the cross for them.

Most of the others do it as a means of salvation or in attempt to keep salvation and many on this chat board, push this false teaching...
Click to expand...

Amen...the only thing that saves anyone is faith into the finished work of Christ on the cross....ETERNALLY I might add.....
 
Meggido said:
Fran...

If people keep the ceremonial laws, thinking keeping those laws and what Jesus did saves them, they are wrong...
If people keep the ceremonial laws out of obligation because they believe keeping them keeps from going to hell and saved, they are wrong...
If people keep the ceremonial laws out of obligation because they believe keeping them keeps rightoeus and saved, they are wrong... and are engaged in self-righteous works

JESUS + NOTHING YOU DO OR ADD=EVERYTHING
Click to expand...

This is biblical math.....
 
Desertsrose said:
Hi Megiddo,

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “ But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. Romans 1:16-19

Paul is speaking of Jew/Gentile. ALL men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When you read vs 16 and 17 above with 18 and 19, Paul is speaking of all mankind, not one group or the other, but all.
Click to expand...

Now go to to chapter 2 to see the compare contrast....
 
PHart said:
When you do it out of love and adoration and worship of God through the Holy Spirit,
Just like how congregating on the 1st day of the week is spiritual when done for that reason.
We know exactly what the Jews were to do on the Sabbath. The law tells us. And it does include congregating:

Leviticus 23:3 NIV
3“ ‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly.

We do this on Sunday rather than on the designated Sabbath day now because the Catholics decided in their presumed Papal authority that it will be that way now rather than on the 7th day. They eventually declared that observing the ceremonial law of Moses was categorically and without exception 'anathema'. They did that out of envy of parishioners who were observing the Jewish meeting times and practices in preference to their invented meeting schedules and practices.

It's interesting to note that many of the church's doctrines like OSAS, predestination, and H-grace have their foundation in the church because of this single failure to understand the role of the law in New Covenant life. It all boils down to the church's lack of understanding about Paul's grace vs. law teaching. It has produced so many erroneous doctrines in the church. But I think this failure serves a purpose, like when the Samaritans broke off from Judaism and divided the ten tribes away from Israel into a polluted version of Judaism. In regard to this present Covenant, God is allowing the gentiles to do damage to the law to provoke the Jews to be zealous for the law. Imagine the consternation of a devout Orthodox Jew who sees us stupid gentiles change the Passover into a celebration centered around the practices of Ishtar a pagan goddess.
Click to expand...

I see where you are going here...I do not celebrate Passover or Easter, I celebrate the day he rose again.....resurrection day....Passover has nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ...many like to try to make it a type or shadow....

Passover was strictly for the Jews and strictly for the remembrance of the Exodus...
 
Meggido said:
I see where you are going here...I do not celebrate Passover or Easter, I celebrate the day he rose again.....resurrection day....Passover has nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ...many like to try to make it a type or shadow....

Passover was strictly for the Jews and strictly for the remembrance of the Exodus...
Click to expand...

The only place the word Easter is used in the bible in Acts is Passover in Greek.....
 
Magenta said:
What laws are broken? The ten commandments. Is that what you call Mosaic? I am not sure what you mean when you say that.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

What law is sin and death predicated upon? They hang on something. What?
Click to expand...

When I say Mosaic Laws I am talking about the 10 commandments and the other 603 laws of the testimony given at Sinai...
 
Meggido said:
When I say Mosaic Laws I am talking about the 10 commandments and the other 603 laws of the testimony given at Sinai...
Click to expand...
Well the 613 mitzvot were not given to us, I certainly agree on that. But still you have not really answered my other questions. Obviously the law of sin and death is not predicated on the 613, but do you agree it IS predicated on the ten?
 
PHart said:
When you do it out of love and adoration and worship of God through the Holy Spirit,
Just like how congregating on the 1st day of the week is spiritual when done for that reason.
Click to expand...


Stop the presses, we agree on something, News at 11

We know exactly what the Jews were to do on the Sabbath. The law tells us. And it does include congregating:

Leviticus 23:3 NIV
3“ ‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly.

We do this on Sunday rather than on the designated Sabbath day now because the Catholics decided in their presumed Papal authority that it will be that way now rather than on the 7th day. They eventually declared that observing the ceremonial law of Moses was categorically and without exception 'anathema'. They did that out of envy of parishioners who were observing the Jewish meeting times and practices in preference to their invented meeting schedules and practices.

It's interesting to note that many of the church's doctrines like OSAS, predestination, and H-grace have their foundation in the church because of this single failure to understand the role of the law in New Covenant life. It all boils down to the church's lack of understanding about Paul's grace vs. law teaching. It has produced so many erroneous doctrines in the church. But I think this failure serves a purpose, like when the Samaritans broke off from Judaism and divided the ten tribes away from Israel into a polluted version of Judaism. In regard to this present Covenant, God is allowing the gentiles to do damage to the law to provoke the Jews to be zealous for the law. Imagine the consternation of a devout Orthodox Jew who sees us stupid gentiles change the Passover into a celebration centered around the practices of Ishtar a pagan goddess.
Click to expand...

They gathered together to read on the first day of the week.

Actually things like eternal security came from a pure understanding of the law. and how it relates to us, Predestination is found in scripture. and grace has been shown by God since adam and eve first fell.

I am not sure what the purpose of distorting Gods word is, But people have been doing that since Cain and Abel also. so it only goes to show. Men continue to make the same mistakes as their forefathers, Yet somehow think they got it right this time.
 
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Magenta said:
Well the 613 mitzvot were not given to us, I certainly agree on that. But still you have not really answered my other questions. Obviously the law of sin and death is not predicated on the 613, but do you agree it IS predicated on the ten?
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No, I do not not...this is because the first 5 of the 10 show us how to relate to God and the other 5 of the 10 shows us how to relate to each other....

The law of sin and death is not governed by the 10...it is a spiritual death as well as physical death...because it is largely a spiritual law...I cannot state it hangs on any of the 10...Romans 1 & 2 says men know God and chose to do their own thing and are without excuse and that a Gentile will perish without the law...because they are a law unto themselves..

Romans 2.12-16

[SUP]12[/SUP]For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [SUP]13 [/SUP]for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [SUP]15 [/SUP]in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [SUP]16 [/SUP]on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


The law of sin and death hangs onto the hearts of men, who do not believe...
 
Meggido said:
LOL....be a real Marine and Man of God and get a NASB....sarcasm right back at ya...lol hahahaha!
Click to expand...

NO....I prefer the NEW AMERICAN PARAPHRASED INTERNATION UNGERS INSPIRED VERSION hahahha......with a le-mon twist.....

I actually use a NASB parallel in Greek, King Jimmy, Tanach and most times study every word from Greek or Hebrew...... ;)
 
Dear Lord, We hold this day up to you, and pray that by your mercy you please keep the KJV'only people out of this OP. We ask this in Jesus Name, Amen!
 
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