Catholic believe pope is infallible

[FranC]

do you so often say that someone hates somebody just because you can't give a valid response to what they have merely explained not said in hate? get the hate out of your heart then talk about love of God,and learn that explaining what is right and what is wrong especially concerning scriptures from God's word is not "hate",it is standing by what is written.

Joefizz

Don't you worry none.
The person I was speaking to knows very well of what I speak.
YOU don't.
Just keep out of it.

All is good. I know all about the love of God.
EVERYBODY has to know about the love of God IF they're going to call themselves a Christian.
And that's all I'll say.


I do want to make a comment about the little girl who took the Pope's hat, or whatever it's called.

He probably had in mind that he gets filmed for the news, history and who knows what else.

I've noticed that he tries very much to keep to protocol, even though he's the easiest going with it of all the Pope's.

So, yeah, I agree with you. No harm done. Some people hang on to every little thing...

 

[FranC]

Real cute. Use a catholic definition to define a catholic heresy.

Purgatory is heretical and completely false teaching. Indulgences are what finally drove Martin Luther to leave the catholic religion. Purgatory is not in the bible and when you read the apocrypha you will see that it is based on buying forgiveness of sin for the dead by giving money to the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hey Roger,
What's real cute?

I got the definition of HERESY from here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heresy

You could look it up yourself and compare.
Heresy means something specific...
It's not a Catholic or a Protestant thing.

Purgtory may not be to your liking, but it is gleaned from the bible, just as is Eteral Security, which is not biblical and really IS heretical. (since it is not a normally accepted doctrine by Christian churches).

I agree that indulgences are incorrect. I've said this before.

No need to have such hatred for the Catholic Church.

Do you hate Word of Faith churches?
They seem to teach very odd things...

 

[FranC]

is Depend

heresy is If one doing again church dogma

if that particular church dogma Said tithing is OK than tithing is not heresy

What you're saying is not right Jackson.

A heresy is not so named because ONE PARTICULAR CHURCH does or does not do something.

A heresy has to be AGAINST CHRISTAN TEACHING IN GENERAL.

The point AW was making is this:

IF indulgences are heretical, and I'm willing to say that they probably are...

then TITHING is also heretical because the N.T. does NOT teach tithing.
Jesus said to give with a happy heart, He DID NOT say to give a tenth of everything we earn.

If indulgences are heresy
Then tithing is heresy too.

THIS is the point.

 

[FranC]

hey Fran,
IMO a sin is disobeying a command of the Most High.

improper conduct is doing something you think is not right.

God DID command that two be married if they're to live together.
Otherwise it IS fornication.

Jesus talks about this in Mathew 5.
It's very off topic. But God did make marriage for a purpose.

 

[onlinebuddy]

I don't ADVOCATE Catholic theology. I know it and believe it is very misunderstood.

Catholic theology is very complicated. There is too much extra-biblical terminology that is difficult for the average person to understand. For example, the extract on Grace that you copy pasted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church is pretty tedious and complicated. One begins to wonder what sanctifying grace, sacramental grace, actual grace and special grace is. On the other hand, the teachings of Jesus in the Bible are simple and direct. No wonder catholic writings are misunderstood, if at all....

 

[onlinebuddy]

T don't like it to be called a cult when I hear so many other incorrect doctrine in other churches. I just think we should call it incorrect doctrine. Not satanic and all those nasty words...

Even I don't like the catholic church to be called a cult. I have family members who are catholic. I have wonderful childhood memories as a catholic.
Yes, no church is perfect, but the catholic church has gone overboard with their man-made teachings and traditions that contradict the Bible.

There are certain signs by which we can recognize a cult:
1. They have a single powerful leadership over all congregations
2. The leader's opinion becomes Law
3. They use control tactics
4. They deny/change some fundamental truths of the Bible such as:
Jesus was not the Son of God
Jesus is not God
The Bible is not the ultimate word of God
Jesus is Archangel Michael
5. They make faithful members leave their homes and stay away from their families.

The reason people call the catholic church satanic because there are stories spreading in Europe and America that the Pope is the antichrist and the catholic church is the harlot. Christians in the Middle East believe that the harlot is Iraq.

 

[Jackson123]

What you're saying is not right Jackson.

A heresy is not so named because ONE PARTICULAR CHURCH does or does not do something.

A heresy has to be AGAINST CHRISTAN TEACHING IN GENERAL.

The point AW was making is this:

IF indulgences are heretical, and I'm willing to say that they probably are...

then TITHING is also heretical because the N.T. does NOT teach tithing.
Jesus said to give with a happy heart, He DID NOT say to give a tenth of everything we earn.

If indulgences are heresy
Then tithing is heresy too.

THIS is the point.

christian in general is Bible. In this case, nt.

than catholic is heresy.

 

[Jackson123]

Even I don't like the catholic church to be called a cult. I have family members who are catholic. I have wonderful childhood memories as a catholic.
Yes, no church is perfect, but the catholic church has gone overboard with their man-made teachings and traditions that contradict the Bible.

There are certain signs by which we can recognize a cult:
1. They have a single powerful leadership over all congregations
2. The leader's opinion becomes Law
3. They use control tactics
4. They deny/change some fundamental truths of the Bible such as:
Jesus was not the Son of God
Jesus is not God
The Bible is not the ultimate word of God
Jesus is Archangel Michael
5. They make faithful members leave their homes and stay away from their families.

The reason people call the catholic church satanic because there are stories spreading in Europe and America that the Pope is the antichrist and the catholic church is the harlot. Christians in the Middle East believe that the harlot is Iraq.

so catholic believe Jesus is not God? This is serious. It mean catholic attact the very fundamental of Christian believe.
even the devil believe Jesus is God

 

[FranC]

My love story with God began when I was a Catholic. It is the catholic church that taught me the 10 commandments. The catholic church taught me to love my parents. I have beautiful memories of my catholic childhood. However the catholic church also taught me to pray and worship and venerate Mary. The catholic church taught me to bow down and kiss her feet. The catholic church taught me to say novenas. The catholic church taught me to say one Our Father, but ten Hail Marys. The emphasis on Mary was more than that on Christ. The Catholic church taught me to pray to saints and pray to statues.

The catholic church taught me to light candles and lamps. There is a church that is known for Novenas of "Our Lady of Perpetual Succour" People from all over the city and also from neighbouring cities come for the novenas. It is believed that if one attends 9 novenas in a row, "Our Lady" would grant them any wish. I have accompanied my mom for 9 such novenas. Outside the church are innumerable stalls selling candles and even replicas of human body parts made of wax. You will find wax hands, legs, feet, eyes, breasts, ears, noses, etc being sold at these stalls. It is believed that if one is unwell because of, say, their eyes, they must purchase the wax eyes and put it the box assigned for it in the church. Even as a catholic, I found this to be strange. Once I began to read the bible, it became clear that the catholic ways of intercession and worship are not biblical.

My bible tells me that personal sin is serious. It is so serious that Jesus had to die for the sins of the world. The catholic church never addressed the personal sin of the congregation. It never showed me how bad my sin was and never encouraged me to repent.

The catholic youth group that I was a part of had boys and girls who were nice and cool. However, no one displayed Christlike qualities. The youth leader himself used swear words. Many youth smoked and talked lewdly about women. Their focus was on women rather than Christ. i saw a lot of hypocrisy. There was no arrangement to train young men and women to be holy.

After every mass, the parish priest would stand in a corner and smoke cigarette after cigarette. He had no knowledge of what's right and wrong. He did not care about the image he was portraying.

I once was having tea with the parish priest and a "brother"(one who was being trained to be a priest). He was being taught theology and other things to prepare him for priesthood. I asked him what his views about Christ were. He said, "Christ is OK. At the moment people believe in him, but 50 years from now, no one will believe in Christ. There will be just one religion: Humanity." I got the shock of my life! And the parish priest was there listening to all the garbage, and said nothing.

All this is just the tip of the iceberg. I wish I had time to write more.

Yes, if it is simple and pure. Not if it promotes man-made traditons and doctrines that put you under the wrath of God.

Hi,

I read the above. Some of it is pretty disgusting.

I think you're from India, from the flag. Not sure.

Something I DO NOT LIKE about the Catholic Church is that it tries to fit into the culture of the people of the country it's in.
This is wrong.

The Church should not become like the world.
The world should become like the Church.

I wonder if you were raised in India or some English speaking country - your English is not a school-taught English.

You're absolutely correct that much of what you state above is not right. It should not be encouraged by ANY Church, I don't care WHAT COUNTRY it's in.

Here where i live, for instance, there are processions to saints. Every town has a Patron Saint. On the feast day of that saint, the town has a big feast. It's like Christmas. Food, families get together. Then there's Mass and a procession wth the statue of the saint being paraded through town.

I hear from reliable sources that the Bishop would like to stop this, but the resistance is great from the older generation and the churches are empty enough so this scares him and he allows it to be continued.

I'm like you. I was raised Catholic and converted as an adult. I agree that indulgences and novenas are non-biblical.
I have a problem with the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. I see nowhere in scripture that supports this.

I do, however, see biblical support for other doctrine. Whether one agrees with it or not is a totally different matter.

Let's be thankful to God that we've come to the light...Jesus.

 

[FranC]

I was taught to worship Mary. Isn't bowing down,
kissing the statue, singing praise and adoration, expressing reverence and adoration called worship? Doesn't all praise and adoration and glory belong to Jesus?

Are you sure?

It is the responsibility of the church leader to preach, teach, correct, rebuke and encourage. The church leader must strive hard to see that the congregation does not follow false doctrines.
I fully agree. This is because: 1. Many become priests for wrong motives. They have their eyes set on the perks involved. I personally have come across such priests. 2. The priests are well trained how to say the mass, and organize events, but they are not trained how to take care of the needs of the congregation. 3. The priests are not personally involved with the congregation.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Why not! " Are we saying that Mary was a Virgin forever?The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'But Mary is the Mother of Jesus, right. Not the mother of God. She is the child of God. Why does the Catholic church adopt such contradictory titles?,' How can Mary protect us? Is she omnipresent and omnipotent?. . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The man made terminology again dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such asIsn't Jesus an epitome of the whole Gospel? " Isn't our devotion supposed to be to Jesus?


970 Offcourse it definitely obscures the mediation of Christ. Asking Mary to mediate means that Christ's mediation is not enough or that he is not willing to mediate that we have to ask his mother to intercede. but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to argue with you! I'm on your side.

I posted what I did because it's the official Church teaching.
Mary is NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED.

ONLY GOD can be worshipped.

My above post to you pretty much explains what I feel about Mary and Saints.
The Church is attempting to put more focus on Jesus.
I think it's a shame they waited so long.

I agree with what you said about priests... although some are truly blessed and are a blessing to their congregation.
Some will also tell you that they are not theologians and cannot teach. Some will tell you that the Mass is not a classroom.
On many occasions I've told them that more teaching should be a part of the Mass.

There's a lot wrong with the RCC, but there are things wrong with every Church.
I'm sure we agree on this...

 

[onlinebuddy]

Jesus did pick Peter to be the rock upon which He based His Church. I've studied this a bit and it does seem like Jesus meant for Peter to be THE ROCK, not the LITTLE ROCK. But I don't dwell on this too much.

Jesus often used wordplay in his parables and teachings, which some people took too literally and went astray. Peter being the rock is one such example. Eating the flesh of Jesus and drinking his blood is another example. Those who do not have ears and eyes and hearts for God will never understand what Jesus meant.

I would beg to differ. Peter cannot be THE ROCK. He is a little rock or stone. In fact, every believer is a living stone that is being built into a spiritual house

According to Strong's Interlinear Bible, Jesus said to Peter: ...you are Petros, and upon this Petra I will build my ekklesia.

Petros= rock or stone
Petra= cliff or ledge or rock or large stone
ekklesia=an assembly(not a building)

Obviously, Petros and Petra are different meaning words. So Peter cannot be the Petros and the Petra.

To Paraphrase, Jesus was saying: ..you are a rock or stone, and upon this large rock(the Christ whom you have just confessed) I will build my church

If Peter was the rock on which the church was built, what would you say about Paul and John?
Read the book of Acts, and you will see who had a greater impact in Rome- Peter or Paul.
In fact, the ministry of Peter was not for the gentiles. He was commissioned to go to the Jews. Nowhere in the Book of Acts was any church built based on Peter. So Jesus must have meant something different from what the RCC understands.

Jesus never placed one apostle above the other. He did not create a hierarchy as seen in the RCC. He did not give primacy to any of his disciples. In fact he told the mother of James and John that the desire for higher position is a worldly desire. He added that the one who wants to be first must be a servant.

The RCC claims that Peter was the first pope and lived in Rome for 25 years. Read the book of Acts, and you will know that Peter was hardly ever in Rome. The book of Acts covers more than 25 years of the early church, but nowhere is it mentioned that Peter was the common head operating from Rome. If there was anyone in Rome, it was Paul. Peter was in Joppa, Caesarea, Jerusalem, Antioch,etc...but never in Rome. In fact, it was Paul who laid the foundation of the church in Rome. Read the book of Romans. Paul never mentions Peter as being there. At one particular time, the church in Rome almost disintegrated due to Roman persecution. Paul was imprisoned and faced his first trial, and everyone deserted him, except Luke. Peter was nowhere to be seen in Rome. Peter wrote his epistles from Babylon and not from Rome.

There was an incident where Paul opposed Peter to the face as a brother and a co-worker. This would have not happened if Peter was the infallible head. Peter never considered himself infallible. In fact, he said that he was the worst of sinners. In his epistles, Peter called himself an apostle, a servant of Christ and a fellow elder, not Pope Peter.

Peter never made any decisions on his own. He always consulted the elders and made a joint decision.

The Catolic Church DOES HAVE APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION. This cannot be denied.

About the RCC having apostolic succession, there is no proof. The concept of apostolic succession is irrelevant. God does not give it any importance. The Jews were God's people, but today they are under a temporary curse, and God is reaching out to the Gentiles. He cares for obedience; not succession. HE can either raise successors or in-graft them. The Pharisees claimed to be successors of Abraham, but Jesus called them brood of vipers. He rejected them and told them that God could raise children for Abraham from stones. Obedience to the Word is what matters; not succession.

Also, there may be elders in a Church, but every mainline denomination has a LEADER of the entire Church, and all the elders.
Someone MUST be in charge, just like a corporation.

The early churches were autonomous and took decisions independently. They did not have a common leader, and did not frame tedious theologies. Rather they pointed people to the Bible. Their head was Jesus.

If the RCC wants to go back and proclaim Peter the first Pope, let them.

Can't do anything, apart from telling catholics to wake up and read their Bibles.

 

[onlinebuddy]

I agree. I do think of Protestant leaders though. Ceflo Dollar comes to mind immediately.
Which of your specifications does HE embody?? As you know, there are plenty more. Some have even been caught in adultery.
.

Creflo Dollar is a showman and a money making machine. I just love his preaching, but the prosperity gospel he preaches is not the gospel of Jesus. All these TV evangelists use God to become rich and live luxurious lives and travel in airplanes with gold plated interiors. They have ministries named after themselves such as Creflo Dollar Ministries, Benny Hinn Ministries, Joyce Meyer Ministries,....I can go on and on
I've attended a Benny Hinn meeting in India, just to experience it. That guy is a master hypnotist and showman.

We have to keep our eyes on Jesus and not on men.

Agree. These are the last days. Most churches are corrupted. Satan has sown the tares.

If people want to kneel down to the Pope, they can't be stopped. Francis does pick them right back up --- I guess they just love him too much. Some child he blessed was healed..

When Cornelius fell down at Peter's feet, Peter said, "Stand up. I myself am also a man." When the people of Lystra and Derbe wanted to worship Paul and Barnabas, they tore their clothes and told the people that they were humans like them. I wish the Pope would do something like that
Anyway, he seems a bit different. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. Who am I to judge him?

 

[jaybird88]

I do not think purgatory in the scripture

2Maccabees 12: 46

Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Jews to this day believe in a final purification process, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

the Catholics didnt pull this idea out of thin air.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Hi,I read the above. Some of it is pretty disgusting.I think you're from India, from the flag. Not sure.Something I DO NOT LIKE about the Catholic Church is that it tries to fit into the culture of the people of the country it's in.This is wrong.The Church should not become like the world.The world should become like the Church.I wonder if you were raised in India or some English speaking country - your English is not a school-taught English.You're absolutely correct that much of what you state above is not right. It should not be encouraged by ANY Church, I don't care WHAT COUNTRY it's in.Here where i live, for instance, there are processions to saints. Every town has a Patron Saint. On the feast day of that saint, the town has a big feast. It's like Christmas. Food, families get together. Then there's Mass and a procession wth the statue of the saint being paraded through town.I hear from reliable sources that the Bishop would like to stop this, but the resistance is great from the older generation and the churches are empty enough so this scares him and he allows it to be continued.I'm like you. I was raised Catholic and converted as an adult. I agree that indulgences and novenas are non-biblical.I have a problem with the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. I see nowhere in scripture that supports this.I do, however, see biblical support for other doctrine. Whether one agrees with it or not is a totally different matter.Let's be thankful to God that we've come to the light...Jesus.

Thanks for reading my posts and responding. I'm glad that we share some common experiences and views. Yes, I live in India. I was born and raised in India. Our system of education was brought in by the British, as India was under the British rule for many years. Therefore Indians speak good English, that is on par with people from any other country. We use British spellings such as neighbour, colour, centre, etc.Catholics are a minority in India, but wherever there is a catholic locality there is a patron saint, and the festivities are exactly the same as you have mentioned. Yes, catholic doctrine is based on the Bible, but most of it got changed/revised over time. Yes, knowing Jesus is the greatest blessing!

 

[FranC]

Aren't the words hell and salvation in the Bible? I don't understand what postitional and limited atonement is. Sounds like false doctrine to me.

I don't mind the word sacrament, but the sacraments must be biblical. The words are OK, but the concepts are not biblical.

The first sacrament- baptism is in the Bible, but the catholic church has totally changed what baptism is. Nowhere in the bible will you find a child being baptized. Parents cannot make decisions for a child. The child has to make the decision to follow Jesus when he grows up.

The second sacrament- eucharist or first holy communion is not biblical either. Nowhere in the Bible has anyone "received Christ" as a child.

The third sacrament- confirmation is also not biblical. Nowhere in the Bible do we see a teenager being confirmed into the church and receiving the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is received at baptism.

All these are man-made checkpoints.

The word "hell", as we know it, is not in the New Testament.
There is only one place where the word is used...
2 Peteer 2:4 The Greek word which was translated to Hell is Tartarus.

There are different words for "hell" in Greek and not each one means what we understand hell to be.
I had done a study on this about two years ago. I'm sure you could find information online.

(I'm not saying that hell does NOT exist. Jesus said it does)

SALVATION, OTOH, is found many times in the bible, both in the O.T. and the N.T.
However, it's not written to mean how we understand it today.
We say that Jesus saves us. If we look carefully, we find that He never said to just believe in HIM and we would be saved. He placed conditions on being saved. He spoke of being in and belonging to the Kingdom more. He spoke of commandments, of works. But many don't like to see this. They like to say that all one has to do is believe and he will be saved.
So then we'd have to undersand what BELIEVE means in the Greek. When you get to the bottom line, it means TO DO, to be as Christ is as an example.

Positional is an interesting concept. I hope you know what Hyper Grace is. Those that belong to the Hyper Grace movement will tell you that you are POSITIONALLY sanctified in Christ. IOW, You don't have to do anything to be sanctified, you just have to believe in Christ. This is wrong, of course. But many believe this.

Limited Atonement: This is a Calvinistic concept and not biblical. I won't even get into it. It states that Jesus died only for a few specially chosen persons and not for the Whole world and those who would choose Him.

To get into each sacrament would be too much.
Baptism and marriage are the only two sacraments declared by Jesus.
The Others are man-made but based on the bible.
Some children were baptized BTW. Please check out Acts.

 

[FranC]

In india, kids receive First Holy Communion at the age of 9. At this age how much can we expect them to understand about God, especially since they lack any training in the Word of God and the ways of God. Apart from the 10 commandments, they do not know much.

Yes, kids enjoy their First Holy Communion, but whether they enjoy the fact that they have received Jesus or they enjoy the lavish celebration remains to be seen.

In India, FHC is celebrated lavishly. People spend their life's savings on it. Some of them take a loan, because they want to match up with the neighbour's celebration.

The communion celebration is just like a wedding celebration, complete with a march(exactly like a wedding march), throwing of confetti, raising the toast, cutting of a three tier cake,popping of the champagne bottle, releasing confetti from the centrepiece, the first dance, compere, blasting music, dance, buffet meal, alcohol, photo sessions, videography and photography, etc.

Some parents spend the remaining few years paying back the debt.

I wonder what Jesus would think about all this.

I don't mean to be negative, but I will wholeheartedly support the first communion sacrament if someone shows me where receiving Jesus by a child is mentioned in the Bible

I agree with you.
It's the same here where I iive.
I went to a communion celebration just a few weeks ago and it was like a wedding.

I'll only say this regarding the age:

Do adults really understand communion?
I'm not sure.

I think a child should make his first communion when he has some idea of what it really means.
The Catholic Church just seems to want to give the sacraments to everyone since they believe it's a way of receiving sanctifying grace.

 

[FranC]

Jackson, you contradict yourself.
Look up the definition for contradict, it has your name written all over it.
You are on a mission to convince yourself through others that catholicism is the enemy.
What demon gave you that message?
I came out of the catholic church.
Others here have come out of the catholic church.
My wife got saved in the catholic church before she met me.
You don't have all the answers.
You should be asking questions rather than try to tell us what is right and wrong.

Just want to say that I agree.

I also was raised Catholic.
I do not find all their doctrine to be biblically sound.
There is not enough teaching in that Church and many don't even understand their faith.

This does not make the Catholic Church a cult or a devilish denomination.
There are denominations that believe FAR WORSE doctrine than the RCC.

I know many persons that attend that Church that truly love Jesus and are saved persons.
We should love our Christian brothers in the Lord, no matter what denomination they're in.
No Church is perfect...

 

[FranC]

I can relate to you, because I went through exactly the same thing. Someday, when the priests find out that you are conducting a bible discussion without their knowledge or without the knowledge of the area incharge, they may ask you who gave you the authority to do so. If they do not? Praise God!

The priests knew I was doing the bible study !!
They agreed. They know me well.

 

[FranC]

purgatory is in scripture. non Catholics do not accept those scriptures.

is it not just as bad to delete a scripture just because you dont like what it teaches?

i Jaybird,

I also have a problem with purgatory and every priest I'm friendly with knows that I do.

Did you know that children are more araid of purgatory than hell?
I taught Catechism for years and understand why.

As for me, I feel that if purgatory is real, then wouldn't that mean that Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient?
that's my problem with it.

I know that it can be shown from scripture that it might exist.
Do you believe JESUS ever spoke of it??
I don't believe so...

 

[FranC]

Perhaps you should clarify with him whether that is a temporary or more permanent arrangement!

It doesn't matter where one comes from GnP.

A denomination should teach the same doctrine all over the world.
I did say a few posts back that the RCC is lacking in this --- trying to please everyone.

Whether he comes from Indonesia or the U.S., the discussion remains the same.

It's obvious that his English is school-taught.