THE RAPTURE

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FlSnookman7 said:
What if the oil here refers to the measure of faith given to all and the 5 foolish ones choose not to believe?
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The oil isn't faith, it's the Holy Spirit, and They did believe, but were backslidden.
V1 tells us that they were in the Kingdom of heaven.
 
SteelToedKodiak said:
Wouldn't this call into question His ability to recognize His sheep?
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Jesus knew they were Christians, But He also knew they weren't living for Him, they weren't living like Christians.
And those who are backslidden, will miss the rapture.
V1 tells us that they were in the Kingdom of heaven, Meaning they were all Christians.
 
 
SteelToedKodiak said:
Regarding the 5 foolish virgins, I gotta agree with you that they were not "backslidden" but were never saved. In the parable they attempted to be saved by association with the 5 wise virgins. That is why they said give us some of your oil that we may have "salvation" as well. This is obviously not possible as salvation is of the heart and cannot be by proxy.
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Virgin = saved.(pure,undefiled)

Oil = Holy Spirit as a type.

Cannot be salvation. They wanted the wise to impart it.Salvation is never imparted by another believer.It is a transaction betweer God and man,never imparted.

The Holy Spirit ,on the other hand,IS IMPARTED, or,transferred by laying on of hands.

"give us some of your salvation" would be ridiculous. Jesus would not be promoting that kind of false doctrine.

The foolish had oil. So we can not assume they had salvation,but not enough. That also would be ridiculous.

Finally,the foolish had light. adding all this up,they were beyond any doubt,born again,but carnal as Paul described the Corinthians.
 
God4me said:
Jesus didn't say He never knew them, He said "I know you not", Jesus didn't recognise them as Christians, Because they were backslidden.
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He knew everything about them.
"know" means intimacy

"...and mary knew no man"

Means inntimate,not that she had no men as friends or acquaintances

edit;Maybe we are on the same page...if so,sorry about that
 
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FlSnookman7 said:
Perhaps the fact they are referred to as foolish means they were not saved. Perhaps it is trying to show us that when we don't rely on God but rather we try and do for ourselves how foolish we really are.
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That would mean Jesus did not understand salvation.
 
Ahwatukee said:
There is no mid-trib catching away for the GTS, for they are resurrected after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as shown in Rev.20:4-6. The reason that we know that they are killed is because the elder tells John that they have come out of the great tribulation, which is the same 3 1/2 years that the beast is given power to make war against and conquer the GTS (Dan.7:25, Rev.13:5-7). John's vision of the GTS in Rev.7:9-17 is just that, a vision of those who will be killed during the great tribulation period. The only ones who are caught up in the middle of the seven years will be the male child/144,000 and the two witnesses (Rev.11:11, 12:5).
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Pretty much so.

I do not agree with the resurrection at the end of the GT.

Also there is another gathering you missed in rev 14. (there are three total in rev 14)
 
God4me said:
The 5 foolish virgins didn't go up in the rapture, they were left behind.
Although they were Christians, [The oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit], They were backsliden.
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Reason that is not true is because the Bridegroom coming at Midnight represents the very end of this world, which is timing when Jesus separates His sheep from the goats per the Matt.25 parable. That's what that closing the door and separation between the five wise and the five foolish represents.

Also, per the parable of the laborers of the field, the 11th hour represents the great tribulation timing. In that symbolic 11th hour is when all ten virgins are sleeping when they wake up being told the Bridegroom is coming.
 
HOW TO KNOW WHEN THE RAPTURE IS:

1 Thess 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV


The above Scripture reveals TWO different groups with Christ gathering His Church:

1. the saints who are "asleep" - these have already passed on and await the resurrection on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

2. the saints still alive on earth - these await Christ's coming and day of resurrection when these shall be 'changed' and joined with the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him when He comes.

OK, so you got one group coming from the heavenly with Jesus called the "asleep" saints, and then you got those in Christ still alive on earth on the day of His 2nd coming to gather all His Church. The gathering is from TWO PLACES then, the "asleep" saints from heaven, and the saints on earth from the earth (after they are 'changed' at Paul's "twinkling of an eye" event).

The "caught up" (Greek harpazo) idea of 1 Thess.4:17 aligns with being changed to the "spiritual body" which Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, which is linked with the time of the resurrection there also, which is how those of us still alive on earth are then caught up to Christ when He comes. This idea is where the word 'rapture' comes from, i.e., from Greek harpazo which means 'to seize' and then translated to Latin then English. The word 'rapture' itself is not in the New Testament Bible manuscripts. It's the Greek word harpazo. It's a rough equivalent from the Latin to English. 1 Thess.4 does not... give us the timing of Christ's 2nd coming to gather His Church. It only gives us the 'how' He comes to gather us.

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are examples of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His saints, and it follows the same two group pattern that 1 Thess.4 gives us.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

In God's Word the idea of the "four winds" blowing is a symbol for the ending of this present world. In this context, it is in the Ezekiel 37:9 sense, regarding Spirit and our spirit, i.e., the same idea Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.15 about being changed at the 'twinkling of an eye' to the "spiritual body".

So these saints are gathered 'from' where...? "... from one end of heaven to the other." These represent the "asleep" saints of 1 Thess.4 that Paul revealed our Lord Jesus will bring with Him. What about those us still alive on earth on the day of Christ's 2nd coming to gather His Church?

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Where are these saints in Mark 13 gathered from? They are gathered "... from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Might want to read that above Mark 13:27 verse again. Those represent the other group of saints of 1 Thess.4 that are still alive on earth when Jesus comes. He gathers them off the earth, they will be "caught up" to Him and with the "asleep" saints Jesus brings with Him like Paul said. The "asleep" saints are resurrected; the "caught up" saints are raptured off the earth. Both events occur at the same time, which these Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures do reveal.

And just what TIMING does Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 reveal these events are when they occur? "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...".

That means our Lord Jesus is coming to gather us at the END of this world, and not before. This is what the Scripture is showing us.
 
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God4me said:
Jesus didn't recognise them as Christians, Because they weren't living right, they were backslidden.
If the five foolish virgins weren't saved, then neither was the five wise virgins, Because they were all the same, they all had the oil, [The Holy Spirit], although the oil in the foolish was so low, it was hard to recognise them as Christians.
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The Greek word referenced in this verse for "know" as in "I know you not" is:


Original Word: οἶδα
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eidó
Phonetic Spelling: (i'-do)
Short Definition: I know, remember
Definition: I know, remember, appreciate.
​
 
popeye said:
Pretty much so.

I do not agree with the resurrection at the end of the GT.

Also there is another gathering you missed in rev 14. (there are three total in rev 14)
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"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

In the scripture above, John sees the GTS as beheaded, then he says "they came to life" and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. I would call that a resurrection.

Also there is another gathering you missed in rev 14. (there are three total in rev 14)
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I didn't miss the above, I just didn't comment on it. There are two harvests mentioned there. The second one is not a good harvest which is obvious and seems to be pointing to what happens when Jesus returns at Armageddon, as shown in Rev.19:15 "He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." And the first one doesn't say whether it is good or bad nor does it state who is being harvested or if it is in chronological order. There is just not enough information to say what or when that harvest is. Also, there are only two listed, for the 144,000 who is the male child is caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years as described in Rev.12:5
 
Ahwatukee said:
"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

In the scripture above, John sees the GTS as beheaded, then he says "they came to life" and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. I would call that a resurrection.



I didn't miss the above, I just didn't comment on it. There are two harvests mentioned there. The second one is not a good harvest which is obvious and seems to be pointing to what happens when Jesus returns at Armageddon, as shown in Rev.19:15 "He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." And the first one doesn't say whether it is good or bad nor does it state who is being harvested or if it is in chronological order. There is just not enough information to say what or when that harvest is. Also, there are only two listed, for the 144,000 who is the male child is caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years as described in Rev.12:5
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That translation steered you off course.

Here is the greek interlinear;
And I saw thrones, and theysat upon them, and judgmentwas given unto them: and [Isaw] the souls of them thatwere beheaded for the witnessof Jesus, and for the word ofGod, and which had notworshipped the beast, neitherhis image, neither had received[his] mark upon theirforeheads, or in their hands;and they lived and reignedwith Christ a thousand years.

"came to life" is simply not there.

IOW I could say "...and I saw paul who had been martyred for the gospel,and he sat on thrones,and he lived and reigned with Christ..."

No way anyone could say that he "came to life" 5 minutes before. That would be way,way out of context.

Again,there is no resurrection of martyrs post trib.
 
I didn't miss the above, I just didn't comment on it. There are two harvests mentioned there. The second one is not a good harvest which is obvious and seems to be pointing to what happens when Jesus returns at Armageddon, as shown in Rev.19:15 "Hewill tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." And the first one doesn't say whether it is good or bad nor does it state who is being harvested or if it is in chronological order. There is just not enough information to say what or when that harvest is. Also, there are only two listed, for the 144,000 who is the male child is caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years as described in Rev.12:5
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1 Gathering
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


Second
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.



Third
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


(Three gatherings of rev 14)

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And the first one doesn't say whether it is good or bad nor does it state who is being harvested or if it is in chronological order. There is just not enough information to say what or when that harvest is.
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It says "blessed are they that die in the Lord from henceforth"
Then,in practically the same sentence,Jesus is coming on a cloud to reap.

They are "ripe fruit"
...and mind you,the first fruits have just been ushered into heaven and are before the throne.

First fruits,then ripe fruits

And yes we do have a time period. It is during the GT.
 
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