Calvinism, Right or wrong?

[John146]

I determined Calvin to be a false teacher because of his belief in infant baptism for regeneration. The Bible says to have nothing to do with such a teacher.

If I say "bread is a digging tool to plant flowers," would you think I was totally cracked? You should.

First principle of Semantics -- "A word is not the thing. A word is the symbol for a thing."

In like kind, if definitions for words do not match for different occasions, than the word is useless. What is predestination to the Reformed? Exactly what it means to the rest of the word.
Predestination | Definition of Predestination by Merriam-Webster

Christian to Christian we really can't believe it is fate though! (Or do you?)

As for the rest? Why bother, since you have determined "false teacher" before you even know the subject? Because if you don't even know what the keywords mean, how can you understand the subject to determine if the teach is cracked or not?

 

[Depleted]

But you can still refuse the car. That is your response to the gift.

If I give you a car, I haven't just given you a gift, I've given you a choice whether to accept or receive it.

If I give in the way you suggest, I haven't given you something, I've forced you to have it.

Sure, I could refuse the free, brand new car. Even if it's hideous, I'm not that stupid. It's free. It's brand new. It's worth something. And, yup, it's free to me. (Not to you nor to Christ. What Christ freely gave me cost him more than I can ever understand, but his very all!)

Brand new car?

Sweet deal!

What Christ gives? You can't say that gift is hideous. Have you ever met anyone stupid enough not to enjoy that gift once given?

Jesus once said that if the people didn't rejoice in him when he went into Jerusalem, the rocks would sing his praise. Seems to me not even rocks are THAT stupid!

SWEET DEAL!!!

 

[valiant]

who created me and formed my mind -- who holds my soul in His hand and formed every facet of it according to His design?

tell me His name
teach me to pronounce it ♥

Yahweh ......

 

[posthuman]

The Bible clearly has many passages where man does evil and God does good

One of you will say to me:
“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
“Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,
‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
(Romans 9:19-20)​

what was the perspective Paul was presenting & teaching us, that would lead the reader to say "who then can resist His will" ?
how does "free will" lead someone to ask that question?
((it doesn't. not at all. God's sovereign election does.))

 

[valiant]

I determined Calvin to be a false teacher because of his belief in infant baptism for regeneration. The Bible says to have nothing to do with such a teacher.

Calvin did not believe In what we call baptismal regeneration

 

[John146]

Not False. The Bible clearly has many passages where man does evil and God does good such as your scenario. It happened to Joseph, Job etc as well as to others. You need to study and understand how Great God is. You should do an in-depth study of His providence. This study will answer any and all scenarios that God is truly Almighty and Just. Remember Romans 8:28 Here is one sight to help you https://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-388/Joseph-Because-God-Meant-It-for-Good

Man chose to do evil, and God used those evil choices for good. That's God. That's not God determining every one of our choices. And Romans 8:28 is with the eternal destination in mind. My final destination when I am fully adopted and redeemed is being worked out by God, not me. What's my eternal destination? To be conformed to the image of His Son, Jesus Christ. This will finally be realized at the adoption, the redemption, a future event.

 

[posthuman]

whoops! there i go using words again. sorry haha

 

[Depleted]

you can't have a relationship with someone you control. in such cases, the relationship is an illusion.

the greatest gift god gives us is choice, because choice is what makes salvation possible. without choice, salvation is an illusion, because sin is an illusion, because the self is an illusion, and it's all just god playing with puppets.

everything god saves us -into- is relational. a relationship requires -2 people- to consent, it is not something you can do -to- someone, it's something you do -with- someone.

what god saved us From was a system where we had no choice and therefore had no relationship... a system with no hope and no heart.

Are you single or something? Because I AM in two relationships where I AM controlled. First God! Sure, I get cocky and decide "you can't control me," and go off to do my own thing. But see the next panel in that comic strip because guaranteed it's me limping back and regretting every minute.

And, I'm married. Sure, I don't have to submit, but I do submit because he so gets I'm not his trophy to be shown but never listened to and put away. I submit for the same reason I submit to God -- because both God and hubby get me, know what I'm going to do, and still love me enough to treat me well and seek me when I get loose and fly the coop. They love me, therefore I have no problems with them controlling me... most of the time. Whatever they do, they do out of love! Where IS the problem? Do you not yet trust God enough to realize him controlling you is a good thing?

The out-of-control is where I go wrong, and that's on me, not them.

The greatest gift God gives us is he LOVES us knowing who we are. HIS choice! It's something he does FOR us! Not with nor to. (Although, when it hurts, it feels like to. lol)

As for salvation being an illusion without choice? Tatoo that on your back, just in case you end up in the middle of the ocean faced down when the rescue team comes, so they know not to save you without your pre approval.

God SAVED us. Not from some mere scraped knee. We were headed to hell through OUR choice, "dead in sin," and he saved us despite that choice!!!

 

[John146]

Calvin did not believe In what we call baptismal regeneration

Consider Calvin: “But as baptism is a solemn recognition by which God introduces his children into the possession of life, a true and effectual sealing of the promise, a pledge of sacred union with Christ, it is justly said to be the entrance and reception into the church. And as the instruments of the Holy Spirit are not dead, God truly performs and effects by baptism what he figures.”

Elsewhere, Calvin wrote, “There is a union complementary with the thing figured, lest the sign be empty, because that which the Lord represents in sign he effects at the same time, and executes in us by the power of the Spirit . . . What indeed do we abrogate or take away from God when we teach that he acts through his instruments, indeed, he alone . . . God works . . . through the sacraments as instruments… The Spirit is the author, the sacrament is truly the instrument used.”


If I'm mistaken, then I'm mistaken. But not by these quotes from Calvin.

 

[Depleted]

"irresistible Grace," also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."

Why didn't God use this Grace on Satan and the whole problem would not have started? Or at least on Adam and Eve and prevent the fall. I believe it is resistible because we can choose.

He chose not to. Really? He chooses not to often. We all deserve what Satan gets. Are you really going to complain because he chose not to when he chose TO for you? You can go back to not-to if you want...but I don't think you're that foolish either.

 

[Depleted]

Amen!

And my gift of a video that IS something I agree with even if it was written and sung by an Arminian.

[video=vimeo;87876758]https://vimeo.com/87876758[/video]

(And now I have to listen to it before going shopping. lol)

Ah, man! They removed a Bob Dylan song! Bummer!

 

[Depleted]

I determined Calvin to be a false teacher because of his belief in infant baptism for regeneration. The Bible says to have nothing to do with such a teacher.

And there's the rub. A man -- just a man -- says one thing you disagree with therefore he is a false teacher. Gotcha. Then everyone is a false teacher including you. Good excuse to skip the homework. lol

 

[Depleted]

Calvin did not believe In what we call baptismal regeneration

I didn't think so, but who cares? That was simply his excuse to not listen to anything from anyone.

 

[posthuman]

___________________________________

 

[John146]

And there's the rub. A man -- just a man -- says one thing you disagree with therefore he is a false teacher. Gotcha. Then everyone is a false teacher including you. Good excuse to skip the homework. lol

Just like the false teachers in Galatia that were adding circumcision to the gospel and perverting the gospel of grace, Paul calls them out for teaching a false gospel for adding on to the finished work of the cross. He goes on to say, let that man be accursed. If it's true about Calvin, is he accursed?

 

[B1Davanda]

Ah, man! They removed a Bob Dylan song! Bummer!

Hey, lynn. Not sure what you were after, (I'm guessing Knockin'on Heaven's Door,
or perhaps, Blowin' in the Wind?)
But , THIS one should explain everything.
Be sure to listen all the way through,
wouldn't want to miss anything deep.
[video=youtube;yDC0b7rfK5U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDC0b7rfK5U&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]

 

[Depleted]

Consider Calvin: “But as baptism is a solemn recognition by which God introduces his children into the possession of life, a true and effectual sealing of the promise, a pledge of sacred union with Christ, it is justly said to be the entrance and reception into the church. And as the instruments of the Holy Spirit are not dead, God truly performs and effects by baptism what he figures.”

Elsewhere, Calvin wrote, “There is a union complementary with the thing figured, lest the sign be empty, because that which the Lord represents in sign he effects at the same time, and executes in us by the power of the Spirit . . . What indeed do we abrogate or take away from God when we teach that he acts through his instruments, indeed, he alone . . . God works . . . through the sacraments as instruments… The Spirit is the author, the sacrament is truly the instrument used.”


If I'm mistaken, then I'm mistaken. But not by these quotes from Calvin.

Same thing as circumcision -- a promise to God by parents to raise their kids into the Lord. An outward sign of an inward work on the parents part. Prov. 22:6. It seems like a promise to me. Not to you?

 

[Depleted]

It is very hard to see that man doesn't have the ability to choose good or evil, to believe God or not, to respond. The Bible is not fatalistic. While God is sovereign this doesn't negate man's ability.

Positing man has no desire for good except from God is a theological conundrum. God commands, man is free to obey or not. We are imaged by God, marred by sin, we have capabilities of good and bad.

John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”<---your theological conundrum. I tend to call it "Jesus' words."

 

[Depleted]

Just like the false teachers in Galatia that were adding circumcision to the gospel and perverting the gospel of grace, Paul calls them out for teaching a false gospel for adding on to the finished work of the cross. He goes on to say, let that man be accursed. If it's true about Calvin, is he accursed?

If Calvin is accursed, ain't we all? Last I checked, the only words we know for sure that God agrees with are in the Bible, not in any given person's teaching. They were canonized and confirmed to be THE trusted words of God. "Inspired." "God breathed."

I do study the scripture by reading lots of scholars ideas that they get from reading the same verses. Sometimes they're wrong. I don't dismiss everyone simply because they're wrong, or there is no one else to listen to, including myself.

A bit arrogant to think any given scholar has to be right 100% of the time to pass your litmus test, isn't it? Especially given you just said, "if I'm wrong." So, you acknowledge the possibility that you might be wrong, but are worthy of listening to, but no one else? Or should I just call you accursed when you are wrong too?

(Do I need to warn you at any given point that I go with common sense AND logic, or did I just prove that I do? Because, honestly? You're so busy trying to prove you're right you forgot both concepts somewhere along the line, or simply that we're supposed to be coming up with what God said, not what we feel.)

 

[Depleted]

Hey, lynn. Not sure what you were after, (I'm guessing Knockin'on Heaven's Door,
or perhaps, Blowin' in the Wind?)
But , THIS one should explain everything.
Be sure to listen all the way through,
wouldn't want to miss anything deep.
(video link removed simply because CC tells me I can't have two on one post. lol)

Nah, the only song Bob did that fits the subject, (Gotta Serve Somebody, just in case this video gets unplugged too. lol)
[video=youtube;jtIEYjNZgiU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtIEYjNZgiU[/video]