Calvinism, Right or wrong?

[TMS]

Sorry if i don't understand Calvinism correctly?
help me
Do calvinists believe - That God pre determines, pre chooses, predestines, makes the decision for us, if we are saved or not saved. Can Man choose salvation and reject salvation.? Don't give a long complicated Answer a simple one would be good.

 

[Chuckt]

Sorry if i don't understand Calvinism correctly?
help me
Do calvinists believe - That God pre determines, pre chooses, predestines, makes the decision for us, if we are saved or not saved. Can Man choose salvation and reject salvation.? Don't give a long complicated Answer a simple one would be good.

What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?

 

[psychomom]

Sorry if i don't understand Calvinism correctly?
help me
Do calvinists believe - That God pre determines, pre chooses, predestines, makes the decision for us, if we are saved or not saved. Can Man choose salvation and reject salvation.? Don't give a long complicated Answer a simple one would be good.

so, you don't wanna hear about the doctrine of concurrence?? (sry, just messin' )

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Jn 6:44)

that was my intro to the doctrine of election... notice it doesn't say no one may come... it's can.
my understanding of the Greek word is it's a cognate of 'dunamai' (our word dynamite comes from it).
it's a word designating ability.... power. it's saying we don't have that power apart from God.

i was so furious about the idea we don't choose God i searched the Scripture to prove it wrong.
perhaps you will be wiser than i. just grab a concordance, search the word chosen and those like it, and see what you find?

i also found this website helpful, in small doses at first---
monergism dot com

if you're really interested, i'm sure any of us would be willing to help.

 

[TMS]

Or, in short form, can you explain the exact distinctness of the principles your denom (and/or nondenom) were built in roughly the same few words you used to supposedly, "thoroughly" describe TULIP? Because, honestly? What you did to TULIP was a 15 second commercial on a miniseries of belief system. You really think you covered TULIP? Not even close. It was a volume, not a blurb.

If you don't know the principles (NOT DOCTRINES) than you certainly can't teach anything about them for or against.

I never claimed to know all about the Calvinistic principles. I don't believe any denomination can be explained in a few principles, i just wan't to look at the 5 principles i started with and i thought they are a short summery of what Calvinism believes. But by learning more i'll be able to choose which principle i accept and which principles are wrong.

 

[TMS]

so, you don't wanna hear about the doctrine of concurrence?? (sry, just messin' )

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Jn 6:44)

that was my intro to the doctrine of election... notice it doesn't say no one may come... it's can.
my understanding of the Greek word is it's a cognate of 'dunamai' (our word dynamite comes from it).
it's a word designating ability.... power. it's saying we don't have that power apart from God.

i was so furious about the idea we don't choose God i searched the Scripture to prove it wrong.
perhaps you will be wiser than i. just grab a concordance, search the word chosen and those like it, and see what you find?

i also found this website helpful, in small doses at first---
monergism dot com

if you're really interested, i'm sure any of us would be willing to help.

I see it like this. No one can open the door lock unless he has the right key.
i Believe God holds out the Key to everyone but only those that accept it can get in.
Does God draw everyone or only a few?
In gods own way i believe he draws everyone in different ways a t different times so that everyone can come to Jesus at some point but some refuse.

 

[John146]

To all Calvinists: Please explain predestination according to Scripture. Please include who is predestination and to what to. Also, please explain election. Who is elect and what purpose. Maybe we should start there instead of talking about a false teacher who believed in infant baptism(Scripture says have nothing to do with that false teacher Calvin because he taught another gospel).

 

[psychomom]

I see it like this. No one can open the door lock unless he has the right key.
i Believe God holds out the Key to everyone but only those that accept it can get in.
Does God draw everyone or only a few?
In gods own way i believe he draws everyone in different ways a t different times so that everyone can come to Jesus at some point but some refuse.

(would it horrify you very much to know the word 'draw' in that verse really means more like drag in Greek?)

you are, of course, quite free to see things as you wish.
it took me quite a while reading everything i could get my hands on.

not that you gotta adhere to the Doctrines of Grace for God to save you.

 

[Gr8grace]

(would it horrify you very much to know the word 'draw' in that verse really means more like drag in Greek?)

you are, of course, quite free to see things as you wish.
it took me quite a while reading everything i could get my hands on.

not that you gotta adhere to the Doctrines of Grace for God to save you.

I was stuck under Johnny Pipers "calvinism" for way to long. SO I know his calvinism.Many,many differing variations out there though( But in the end they all lead down the same road.)

It was always curious to me when he described irresistible grace and regeneration before actual belief, then God has to "drag" the kicking and screaming, regenerated and repentant sinner to Him.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

(would it horrify you very much to know the word 'draw' in that verse really means more like drag in Greek?)

you are, of course, quite free to see things as you wish.
it took me quite a while reading everything i could get my hands on.

not that you gotta adhere to the Doctrines of Grace for God to save you.

I think the concept of dragging is pretty unrealistic. The same word is used in the Song of Solomon (in the LXX), where the Shulamite entreats Solomon to draw her with his love. That brings a different picture to my mind than Barney Rubble courting Betty.

 

[keepitsimple]

John 6:64-69

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed Him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Have you ever wondered why none of those who turned back didn't cry out : Lord ... help Thou mine unbelief ? If any of them had, do you not believe that Jesus would have reached out to them in their request ? I have come to believe that our Father requires us to not only trust Him ... but on His terms as well ... and not on our own terms or thru our limited understanding. He is infinitely more wise and loving, compassionate and merciful than all of humanity combined could ever hope to be. What could man's sense of fairness possibly add to His Who willingly agonized upon the cross on our behalf ? God's sovereignty and Him knowing before time existed who would and who wouldn't seek His face in this earthly life in no way reflects negatively on God's sense of fairness. Can it not simply be that those not yet born but who "would believe" are those who were predestined and thus chosen to be called God's own ? Because if this is not the case, then can't each and every one of us "rightly" complain and inquire as to why we were not given as much in this life as many of our neighbours were ? Yet God chose the foolish of this world to confound the wise. And He declares that those who were first will be last ... and those who were last will be first. Trust Him. He knows better than we.

 

[psychomom]

I was stuck under Johnny Pipers "calvinism" for way to long. SO I know his calvinism.Many,many differing variations out there though( But in the end they all lead down the same road.)

It was always curious to me when he described irresistible grace and regeneration before actual belief, then God has to "drag" the kicking and screaming, regenerated and repentant sinner to Him.

truthfully, i know little to nothing about Piper. but the regenerate and repentant person has no need of such... God has already saved him!

i kinda always thought we had to be impelled... persuaded... dragged (lol) is because we were dead in our trespasses and sins?

not too much a corpse can do for itself.

 

[psychomom]

View attachment 147403

fair enough

ps-- that's what it looks like when young men come courting our daughters

 

[Grandpa]

Yes it is a voew of scripture but is that veiw correct?
My issue is the way calvinism sets up God as All Powerful and takes away Mans ability to choose.
I agree that God is all powerful and that His ways are much higher than mans but i believe man can still choose to reject or accept the gift of salvation.

"Unconditional election" God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
I believe the Bible supports - God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to ALL of mankind. Those that accept the free gift receive salvation through Christ alone. Those that don't accept the gift receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
One allows man to accept and choose the other takes that choice away.
Perseverance of God with the saints with the set apart or elected, - asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end.
I believe in God's perseverance with mankind, but because He is sovereign doesn't mean He forces the saved to stay saved and will not let them reject Him.

A man is dying of thirst. His whole life he is taught if he eats sawdust it will cure his thirst. But it never does.

And then he is offered water. Does this man who is dying of thirst have a choice? If he does, it is one that 100% of the people offered, take 100% of the time...

Is he "forced" to continue drinking this water so he doesn't die of thirst? I suppose you could look at it that way... But the man dying of thirst views it as a priceless gift not as something that is violating his "free" will.

 

[posthuman]

___________________________

 

[sharkwhales]

Bingo! "Responding." The very nature of the word says something happened beforehand or it's not a response. Men respond after God saves, and because God saves, he gives us that faith in him.

I will give you full faith in you giving me a brand new car after you give me a brand new car. That is the reaction to the gift, not our effort in getting the gift.

But you can still refuse the car. That is your response to the gift.

If I give you a car, I haven't just given you a gift, I've given you a choice whether to accept or receive it.

If I give in the way you suggest, I haven't given you something, I've forced you to have it.

 

[posthuman]

But you can still refuse the car. That is your response to the gift.

If I give you a car, I haven't just given you a gift, I've given you a choice whether to accept or receive it.

If I give in the way you suggest, I haven't given you something, I've forced you to have it.

He not only gave me the car, but He pays my insurance, taught me how to drive it, put fuel in the tank, gave me a GPS and He even pays my ticket when i speed & takes the wheel when i can't see.

​

what was i going to do, walk? i didn't even know where i was going, and i was lame. more than lame, i was lying dead & putrefied in a ditch on the side of the road, and He breathed life into me and wrapped my bones with flesh, then clothed me in a pure white wedding garment, and covered that with full armor made of light.

what, did He create me with His specific purposes for me in mind, but not know whether i would fulfill them? the One who knows the end from the beginning, who knew me before He ever formed me in my mother? is that One ignorant of what He created?

((nuts, here i am using my words again .. sorry))

God is great!! who is a God like Him?

 

[sharkwhales]

He not only gave me the car, but He pays my insurance, taught me how to drive it, put fuel in the tank, gave me a GPS and He even pays my ticket when i speed & takes the wheel when i can't see.

​

what was i going to do, walk? i didn't even know where i was going, and i was lame. more than lame, i was lying dead & putrefied in a ditch on the side of the road, and He breathed life into me and wrapped my bones with flesh, then clothed me in a pure white wedding garment, and covered that with full armor made of light.

what, did He create me with His specific purposes for me in mind, but not know whether i would fulfill them? the One who knows the end from the beginning, who knew me before He ever formed me in my mother? is that One ignorant of what He created?

((nuts, here i am using my words again .. sorry))

God is great!! who is a God like Him?

you can't have a relationship with someone you control. in such cases, the relationship is an illusion.

the greatest gift god gives us is choice, because choice is what makes salvation possible. without choice, salvation is an illusion, because sin is an illusion, because the self is an illusion, and it's all just god playing with puppets.

everything god saves us -into- is relational. a relationship requires -2 people- to consent, it is not something you can do -to- someone, it's something you do -with- someone.

what god saved us From was a system where we had no choice and therefore had no relationship... a system with no hope and no heart.

 

[AuntieAnt]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sharkwhales again."

Brother Sharkwhales, you're wearing out the reputation button. hehe

 

[TMS]

"irresistible Grace," also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."

Why didn't God use this Grace on Satan and the whole problem would not have started? Or at least on Adam and Eve and prevent the fall. I believe it is resistible because we can choose.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

you can't have a relationship with someone you control. in such cases, the relationship is an illusion.

That's called a dysfunctional relationship. GOD is perfect (whole), not dysfunctional.

Therefore you be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48​

Perfect
G5046 τέλειος teleios (tel'-ei-os) adj.
1. complete