Calvinism, Right or wrong?

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Depleted

Guest
Yes it is a voew of scripture but is that veiw correct?
My issue is the way calvinism sets up God as All Powerful and takes away Mans ability to choose.
I agree that God is all powerful and that His ways are much higher than mans but i believe man can still choose to reject or accept the gift of salvation.

"Unconditional election" God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
I believe the Bible supports - God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to ALL of mankind. Those that accept the free gift receive salvation through Christ alone. Those that don't accept the gift receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.
One allows man to accept and choose the other takes that choice away.
Perseverance of God with the saints with the set apart or elected, - asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end.
I believe in God's perseverance with mankind, but because He is sovereign doesn't mean He forces the saved to stay saved and will not let them reject Him.
You can NOT have issues with anyone without first learning what they REALLY believe. And you can NOT argue anything because "this is what I want to believe despite any -- ANY -- reality."

What you're doing here is much like me trying to argue with a three year old on if there is a Santa. It can't be done until the child is old enough to distinguish reality from fantasy.

That's why I'm not arguing specifics with you. Not that I can't, but you're still determined you can create your own god to fit your desires. That's also why most people here are leaning way back from this argument. Where can we go when Santa Claus is still assumed?
 
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psychomom

Guest
True, except I still don't believe in free will. The will is never free. It's enslaved in the sin nature or the supernature of God. There is no give on that to will anything freely. Stubbornly, but not freely. lol
i guess man's will is free to choose what it wants?
i agree, slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness... the Bible gives no other options.

but we will always choose that which we want to choose.
it's just that apart from the supernatural intervention of God, we would never choose Him. :)
 
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Depleted

Guest
i guess man's will is free to choose what it wants?
i agree, slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness... the Bible gives no other options.

but we will always choose that which we want to choose.
it's just that apart from the supernatural intervention of God, we would never choose Him. :)
Amen!

And my gift of a video that IS something I agree with even if it was written and sung by an Arminian.


[video=vimeo;87876758]https://vimeo.com/87876758[/video]

(And now I have to listen to it before going shopping. lol)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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where is FREEwill mentioned in scripture outside Genesis 3?
 

sharkwhales

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2016
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where is FREEwill mentioned in scripture outside Genesis 3?
'free will' is a philosophical term that didn't exist then.

Choices and responses are mentioned many times.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
(deut 30:19)
 
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psychomom

Guest
where is FREEwill mentioned in scripture outside Genesis 3?
whew! i had been concerned about you and your wife in your absence.

glad to see you :)
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
615
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It is very hard to see that man doesn't have the ability to choose good or evil, to believe God or not, to respond. The Bible is not fatalistic. While God is sovereign this doesn't negate man's ability.

Positing man has no desire for good except from God is a theological conundrum. God commands, man is free to obey or not. We are imaged by God, marred by sin, we have capabilities of good and bad.
 
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Depleted

Guest
It is very hard to see that man doesn't have the ability to choose good or evil, to believe God or not, to respond. The Bible is not fatalistic. While God is sovereign this doesn't negate man's ability.

Positing man has no desire for good except from God is a theological conundrum. God commands, man is free to obey or not. We are imaged by God, marred by sin, we have capabilities of good and bad.
Jesus never seemed to have a problem with that one:
John 3:
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John 6:
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
 
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skyler79

Guest
I think Spurgeon said it best,

First, let me ask, must we not all of us admit an overruling providence and the appointment of Jehovah’s hand as to the means whereby we came into this world? Those men, who think that, afterwards, we are left to our own free will to choose this one, or the other to direct our steps, must admit that our entrance into the world was not of our own will, but that God had then to choose for us. What circumstances were those in our power which led us to elect certain persons to be our parents? Had we anything to do with it? Did not God Himself appoint our parents, native place and friends? Could He not have caused me to be born with the skin of the African; brought forth by a filthy mother who would nurse me in her “hut,” and teach me to bow down to pagan gods, quite as easily as to have given me a pious mother, who would each morning and night bend her knees in prayer on my behalf? Or, might He not, if He had pleased, have given me some degenerate to have been my parent—from whose lips I might have early heard fearful, filthy, and obscene language? Might He not have placed me where I would have had a drunken father who would have imprisoned me in a very dungeon of ignorance, and brought me up in the chains of crime? Was it not God’s providence that I had so happy a lot, that both my parents were His children, and endeavored to train me up in the fear of the Lord? John Newton used to tell a whimsical story and laugh at it too, of a good woman who said, in order to prove the doctrine of election, “Ah, sir, the Lord must have loved me before I was born, or else He would not have seen anything in me to love afterwards.” I am sure it is true in my case. I believe the doctrine of election because I am quite certain that if God had not chosen me, I would never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards! He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine.

I do not know how some people who believe that a Christian can fall from grace manage to be happy. It must be a very commendable thing in them to be able to get through a day without despair! If I did not believe the doctrine of the final perseverance of the Saints, I think I would be, of all men, the most miserable, because I should lack any ground of comfort. There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian—but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin? I reply I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it; but far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views! It is often said that the doctrines we believe, have a tendency to lead us to sin; I have heard it asserted most positively that those high doctrines which we love, and which we find in the Scriptures, are licentious ones! I do not know who will have the hardihood to make that assertion when they consider that the holiest of men have been believers in them. I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitefield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace? Or what will he say of the Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing; but now we are looked upon as the heretics and they as the orthodox! We have gone back to the old school; we can trace our descent from the apostles; it is that vein of free grace running through the sermonizing of Baptists which has saved us as a denomination! Were it not for that, we should not stand where we are today. We can run a golden line up to Jesus Christ, Himself, through a holy succession of mighty fathers who all held these glorious truths—and we can ask concerning them—“Where will you find holier and better men in the world?” No doctrine is so calculated to preserve a man from sin as the doctrine of the grace of God

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved.

(Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124). (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298). (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34). (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).


Official Calvinist.jpg
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
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I think Spurgeon said it best,

First, let me ask, must we not all of us admit an overruling providence and the appointment of Jehovah’s hand as to the means whereby we came into this world? Those men, who think that, afterwards, we are left to our own free will to choose this one, or the other to direct our steps, must admit that our entrance into the world was not of our own will, but that God had then to choose for us. What circumstances were those in our power which led us to elect certain persons to be our parents? Had we anything to do with it? Did not God Himself appoint our parents, native place and friends?
(Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124). (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298). (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34). (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309). View attachment 147824
This is false. Originally, Adam and Eve were made by God for intimate fellowship with Him. But something happened...the fall. After the fall, sin was passed down to man. Sin is not God's choice for us. What if a baby is born from a rape victim? Was that God's plan? Did God elect that young lady to be raped and give birth to a child? Was that the way God elected for a child's entrance into this world? God is not the author of sin.
 
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Depleted

Guest
Sorry if i don't understand Calvinism correctly?
help me
Do calvinists believe - That God pre determines, pre chooses, predestines, makes the decision for us, if we are saved or not saved. Can Man choose salvation and reject salvation.? Don't give a long complicated Answer a simple one would be good.
No. (Simple enough?)
 
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Depleted

Guest
I see it like this. No one can open the door lock unless he has the right key.
i Believe God holds out the Key to everyone but only those that accept it can get in.
Does God draw everyone or only a few?
In gods own way i believe he draws everyone in different ways a t different times so that everyone can come to Jesus at some point but some refuse.
What you're missing is God not only owns the key, he IS the key! He IS the Door, the Way, and the destination. He opens, we walk through and then some of us are bound and determined to think we wanted to, that key was where our mind was at that moment, and we were smart enough to even consider walking through. We're goats. What in the world would possess us ever to think a door or key was ever important? Our stomachs are important so we fill them. Our mind is on us alone, until God sets it up that we walk through his door, and then suddenly, POOF! We're sheep!

HE DID THAT! Not us. Not our choice. Nothing! HE DID THAT! We merely feel like we were brilliant enough to do all that on our own from some who-knows-what will. Want to know what our will is?

Gen. 6:5! That be our will! "Only" and "continually," until he changes our nature and turns goats into sheep.
 
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Depleted

Guest
To all Calvinists: Please explain predestination according to Scripture. Please include who is predestination and to what to. Also, please explain election. Who is elect and what purpose. Maybe we should start there instead of talking about a false teacher who believed in infant baptism(Scripture says have nothing to do with that false teacher Calvin because he taught another gospel).
If I say "bread is a digging tool to plant flowers," would you think I was totally cracked? You should.

First principle of Semantics -- "A word is not the thing. A word is the symbol for a thing."

In like kind, if definitions for words do not match for different occasions, than the word is useless. What is predestination to the Reformed? Exactly what it means to the rest of the word.
Predestination | Definition of Predestination by Merriam-Webster

Christian to Christian we really can't believe it is fate though! (Or do you?)

As for the rest? Why bother, since you have determined "false teacher" before you even know the subject? Because if you don't even know what the keywords mean, how can you understand the subject to determine if the teach is cracked or not?
 
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Depleted

Guest
I was stuck under Johnny Pipers "calvinism" for way to long. SO I know his calvinism.Many,many differing variations out there though( But in the end they all lead down the same road.)

It was always curious to me when he described irresistible grace and regeneration before actual belief, then God has to "drag" the kicking and screaming, regenerated and repentant sinner to Him.
Did you kick and scream? All I remember was one very huge WOW!


I went to sleep wondering if God was real. I woke up knowing. No kicking and screaming involved. lol
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
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'free will' is a philosophical term that didn't exist then.

Choices and responses are mentioned many times.

(deut 30:19)
but choices and responses are not free will they are made according to our inclinations.
 
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skyler79

Guest
Not False. The Bible clearly has many passages where man does evil and God does good such as your scenario. It happened to Joseph, Job etc as well as to others. You need to study and understand how Great God is. You should do an in-depth study of His providence. This study will answer any and all scenarios that God is truly Almighty and Just. Remember Romans 8:28 Here is one sight to help you https://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-388/Joseph-Because-God-Meant-It-for-Good
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,793
13,548
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but choices and responses are not free will they are made according to our inclinations.

who created me and formed my mind -- who holds my soul in His hand and formed every facet of it according to His design?

tell me His name :)
teach me to pronounce it