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Nuns_n_roses
Guest
The key founders of America were not conservative Christians and advocated separation of church and state though
Bernieeeeee
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The key founders of America were not conservative Christians and advocated separation of church and state though
The Founding Fathers ONLY wrote that the State COULD NOT establish a single religion as the State religion because of the suppression of the Church of England under King George and others.
They NEVER WROTE "separation of church and State" as is now the 1st Amendment translated. The 1st Amendment only refers to the Establishment Clause.
Can you tell me what you think is the difference between communism and socialism?
Oh I quite agree, but I'm not a fan of the so-called "founders" so that won't be an argument that will work on me lol.
On top of that, they're long dead so they no longer matter.
There have only been 2 forces that have ever stopped man's corruption. Competition and a belief in and accountability to God.
Socialism/communism believe in neither. Capitalism restrained by our Constitution, is as good a political/socio-economic system that has ever been devised short of our Lord and Savior coming back to reign.
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Nuns_n_roses
Guest
[TD="class: acol"][/TD]
[TH="class: vcol"][h=3]Communism[/h][/TH]
[TH="class: vcol"][h=3]Socialism[/h][/TH]
[TH="class: acol"]Philosophy[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Free-access to the articles of consumption is made possible by advances in technology that allow for super-abundance.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution. Emphasis on profit being distributed among the society or workforce to complement individual wages/salaries.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Ideas[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]All people are the same and therefore classes make no sense. The government should own all means of production and land and also everything else. People should work for the government and the collective output should be redistributed equally.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]All individuals should have access to basic articles of consumption and public goods to allow for self-actualization. Large-scale industries are collective efforts and thus the returns from these industries must benefit society as a whole.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Key Proponents[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Karl Marx, Fredrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Robert Owen, Pierre Leroux, Karl Marx, Fredrick Engels, John Stuart Mill, Albert Einstein, George Bernard Shaw, Thorstein Veblen, Emma Goldman.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Key Elements[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Centralized government, planned economy, dictatorship of the "proletariat", common ownership of the tools of production, no private property. equality between genders and all people, international focus. Usually anti-democratic with a 1-party system.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Economic activity and production especially are adjusted by the State to meet human needs and economic demands. "Production for use": useful goods and services are produced specifically for their usefulness.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Political System[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]A communist society is stateless, classless and is governed directly by the people. This however has never been practised.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Can coexist with different political systems. Most socialists advocate participatory democracy , some (Social Democrats) advocate parliamentary democracy, and Marxist-Leninists advocate "Democratic centralism."[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Political Movements[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Leninism, Trotskyism, Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, Left-Communism, Stalinism.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Democratic socialism, communism , libertarian socialism, social anarchism, and syndicalism.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Private Property[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Abolished. The concept of property is negated and replaced with the concept of commons and ownership with "usership".[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Two kinds of property: Personal property, such as houses, clothing, etc. owned by the individual. Public property includes factories, and means of production owned by the State but with worker control.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Economic Coordination[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Economic planning coordinates all decisions regarding investment, production and resource allocation. Planning is done in terms of physical units instead of money.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Planned-socialism relies principally on planning to determine investment and production decisions. Planning may be centralized or decentralized. Market-socialism relies on markets for allocating capital to different socially-owned enterprises.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Definition[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]International theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, with actual ownership ascribed to the community or state. Rejection of free markets and extreme distrust of Capitalism in any form.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]A theory or system of social organization based on the holding of most property in common, with actual ownership ascribed to the workers.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Religion[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Abolished - all religious and metaphysics is rejected.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Freedom of religion, but usually promotes secularism.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Ownership Structure[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]The means of production are commonly-owned, meaning no entity or individual owns productive property. Importance is ascribed to "usership" over "ownership".[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]The means of production are socially-owned with the surplus value produced accruing to either all of society (in Public-ownership models) or to all the employee-members of the enterprise (in Cooperative-ownership models).[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Social Structure[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]All class distinctions are eliminated.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Class distinctions are diminished. Status derived more from political distinctions than class distinctions. Some mobility.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Economic System[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]The means of production are held in common, negating the concept of ownership in capital goods. Production is organized to provide for human needs directly without any use for money. Communism is predicated upon a condition of material abundance.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]The means of production are owned by public enterprises or cooperatives, and individuals are compensated based on the principle of individual contribution. Production may variously be coordinated through either economic planning or markets.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Free Choice[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Either the collective "vote" or the state's rulers make economic and political decisions for everyone else. In practice, rallies, force, propaganda etc. are used by the rulers to control the populace.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Religion, jobs, & marriage are up to the individual. Compulsory education. Free, equal access to healthcare & education provided through a socialized system funded by taxation. Production decisions driven more by State decision than consumer demand.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Discrimination[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]In theory, all members of the state are considered equal.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]The people are considered equal; laws are made when necessary to protect people from discrimination. Immigration is often tightly controlled.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Way of Change[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Government in a Communist-state is the agent of change rather than any market or desire on the part of consumers. Change by government can be swift or slow, depending on change in ideology or even whim.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Workers in a socialist state are the nominal agent of change rather than any market or desire on the part of consumers. Change by the State on behalf of workers can be swift or slow, depending on change in ideology or even whim.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Examples[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Ideally, there is no leader; the people govern directly. This has never been actually practiced, and has just used a one-party system. Examples 0f Communist states are the erstwhile Soviet Union, Cuba and North Korea.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR): although the actual categorization of the USSR's economic system is in dispute, it is often considered to be a form of centrally-planned socialism.[/TD]
[TH="class: acol"]Earliest Remnants[/TH]
[TD="class: vcol"]Theorized by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels in the mid-19th century as an alternative to capitalism and feudalism, communism was not tried out until after the revolution in Russia in the early 1910s.[/TD]
[TD="class: vcol"]In 1516, Thomas More write in "Utopia" about a society based around common ownership of property. In 1776, Adam Smith advocated the labor theory of value, ignoring the previous Cantillonian view that prices are derived from supply and demand.[/TD]
I wouldn't say they don't matter though. They established a lot in their lives so that we can live in the wonderful country that we do.
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Nuns_n_roses
Guest
I disagree, they established one of the worst systems ever created that had severe problems almost from the get-go. We must keep in mind their absurd philosophy is the direct cause of most of America's problems in history, even today. Examples would be such as the Trans-Atlantic slave trade and unethical slavery practices in the Old South, the Civil War, problems in the industrial era such as wage slavery, poor working conditions, and so forth. In the modern age it is a direct cause in the proliferation of secularism and paganism, sexual abuse, and abortion just to name a few.
It is somewhat an irony but all the high points in American history are when America goes against the Constitution and embraces a more Christian-based culture which lead to a revival not just spiritually, but also secularly (ie: Reconstruction era, Roaring 20s, the 1950s).
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kaylagrl
Guest
Forms of Government Explained....
Cows and Government
Socialism
Communism
You have two cows. The government takes them both and promises you milk but you starve.
Fascism
You have two cows. The government takes them and sells you the milk.
Bureaucracy
You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours it down the drain.
Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
Bain Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell one, force the other to produce the milk of four cows and then act surprised when it drops dead.
Redistributionism
You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point that you must sell them both in order to support someone else who already got a free cow from the government.
Pretty simple
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Nuns_n_roses
Guest
Also the definition of democratic socialism... "Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a socialist economic system, involving a combination of political democracy with social ownership of the means of production."
NOW you're talking my language.
I can get behind factual debates.
LOL I like this
NOW you're talking my language.
I can get behind factual debates.Forms of Government Explained....
Cows and Government
Socialism
You have two cows. The government takes one and gives one to your neighbor.
Communism
You have two cows. The government takes them both and promises you milk but you starve.
Fascism
You have two cows. The government takes them and sells you the milk.
Bureaucracy
You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours it down the drain.
Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
Bain Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell one, force the other to produce the milk of four cows and then act surprised when it drops dead.
Redistributionism
You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point that you must sell them both in order to support someone else who already got a free cow from the government.
Pretty simple
LOL I like this
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Nuns_n_roses
Guest
"Democratic socialism can mean Social democracy as in Sweden, Denmark and other Scandinavian countries and that works, Denmark is the happiest country in the world while Sweden, Norway and Finland are among the happiest." -liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Democratic_socialism_as_in_Scandinavia
It can work for SOME countries. Ours maybe not.
It can work for SOME countries. Ours maybe not.
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kaylagrl
Guest
I'd make the argument that none of those countries are democratic or socialist. Excepting for Finland, they are monarchies with highly liberal economic systems (liberal economics not to be confused with leftist politics).
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Nuns_n_roses
Guest
I don't think the way our system is set up can handle socialist tendencies anyways. That's kind of a funny quote though LoL
For those who are LDS like my sister, heaven is more like a capitalist society where there are different levels of heaven. Those who work harder go upwards
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sealabeag
Guest
I have yet to see a socialism that is not hostile to religion and Christian morality. A statistically "happy" country doesn't equal a Godly country.
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Nuns_n_roses
Guest
yeah, plus them socialist nations are finding out they can't afford all the stuff they have put in place. add in now in those very same nations the socialist has invited all them muslims in who rape the women, but people can't say anything about it cause well its racist.