"It is finished." What is the "it?"

[forsha]

There are no Scriptures with which Ro 3:5 does not harmonize.


That is a general statement with no demonstration by you.

Faith is only mentioned two times in the old statement. Matt 9:22, Jesus told the woman with the issue of blood that her faith has made her whole. Jesus is not telling her that her faith has saved her eternally. Luke 7:50, a timely salvation, not eternal. Acts 26:18, Jesus, telling Paul, to tell the Gentiles what He will do for them. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are (sanctified by faith that is in me. (Christ's faith)..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith is only mentioned two times in the old statement. Matt 9:22, Jesus told the woman with the issue of blood that her faith has made her whole. Jesus is not telling her that her faith has saved her eternally. Luke 7:50, a timely salvation, not eternal. Acts 26:18, Jesus, telling Paul, to tell the Gentiles what He will do for them. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are (sanctified by faith that is in me. (Christ's faith)..

faith in me, is not Christ's faith, that is faith in Christ.

the pharisee thought he was holy because he trusted self.

the tax collector KNEW he was unholy, because he understood the law.

On acted in faith (have mercy on me a sinner) and was sent hime justified.

he was not justified because he was born again, he was justified because he had faith in Christ.

 

[forsha]

if your going to keep ignoring the rest of John 6 and context. Then you are no better then ken here. And not even worth listening to.

Not to be rude, but your continued focusing on one verse and ignoring the rest of the context is childish.

John 6: 39 says nothing other than whoever God gave jesus, they can not be lost.

That supports eternal security, not that jesus only died for a certain group of people.

Your adding to the word.

Whoever Jesus died for in John 6:39 were, every one that he died for, he will not lose even one of them. Either he died for a part of mankind and they will all be saved eternally. or he died for all mankind, and all mankind will be saved eternally. There are only two choices, which do you choose?

 

[tribesman]

What is so hard about it?

Again, If my debt is 1000 dollars because I committed a crime, and my dad who is innocent paid that thousand dollar fine and purchased my freedom from that debt, It is still 1000 dollars. It did not make my father guilty of that crime.

This analogy seems plausible at first look. But it seems like you're saying that your dad did not only have to pay the $1000. He also had to literally become the offender besides paying the debt. Taking your place as the offender however does not make him one.

To be honest, I feel your being unreasonable here. and trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I am probably worse than unreasonable. If we get back to topic, what I want to hammer home is that you've gotta have Bible for such dramatic statements as "Jesus died spiritually" and "Jesus was born again at the cross". These are too huge things to just brush off with some nice sounding analogies. It kinda boggles my mind that so few here have reacted against these statements, as I am sure most do NOT agree with such.

The one giving the sacrifice had to be pure and without blemish. Jesus was. or our sin could not be placed on his body. The separation is because God can not look on sin, If my sin was placed on his body, God had to turn his back. For God is holy and can not look on sin. That was the penalty that paid for my sin.

No problem so far. I'd agree with this.

Think about it, If jesus did not suffer the penalty imposed to me because of my sin (ie the thousand dollars) I am still dead in my sin, my freedom has not been purchased.

Jesus suffered that penalty, but not by way of literally becoming a sinner. Thus no need to be "born again".

Your thinking too narrowly.

I was born dead, Yet I was alive, and even my spirit had life. Yet the bible calls me dead.

So you either give that type of death a name, Than name is spiritual death (literally a spiritual separation)

Being born again is nothing more than our fellowship being restored with God. or being made spiritual alive.

Again, it is not rocket science, And not something you would try to teach a babe in Christ, for they could not understand it.

Someone who reads the Bible flatly literally calls me narrow minded? lol. I wouldn't have any objection to the above, it's when you bring Jesus into that equation that the signal goes.

There is no problem in what I am teaching, it is clear. and explains more deeply what my situation against God was. And why I need to be born again, And also to show what great pain Christ went for in my behalf. (ie, man did not punish him for my sin, God did)

You are teaching that Jesus died spiritually and was born again at the cross. These are rather odd...well, extreme, stuff on par with forsha's "faith of Christ". I wonder where you actually got this teaching from (and don't say the Bible). Is your pastor teaching this? Or is this your personal belief? Care to tell us?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Whoever Jesus died for in John 6:39 were, every one that he died for, he will not lose even one of them. Either he died for a part of mankind and they will all be saved eternally. or he died for all mankind, and all mankind will be saved eternally. There are only two choices, which do you choose?

it does not say he died for them, It says who they are (those who have faith on him, who seek the food which endures forever, who eat the bread sent from heaven, who partake of his flesh and blood)

Your adding to the word of God my friend. and again, rejecting everything else Jesus said in John 6.

Your like the roman catholic who says the eucharist is truely from God, and must be eaten at mass, He is taking one part of the passage, rejecting EVERYTHING ELSE JESUS SAID, and making a doctrine out of it.

Your both in error.

 

[tribesman]

So your saying if I commit a crime, and the penalty imposed is 1000 dollars. Someone can pay far less that that 1000 dollars. and perfectly righteous judge would accept it as payment in full?

Nope, I am saying that it would be sufficient to pay the debt in full. Not less or more than that. You are saying that the one who takes your place as offender also need to become an offender himself in order to have the debt paid.

 

[forsha]

I never said God needed the help of man. You need to get off your high horse. My faith in Christ is not me helping God. It is me TRUSTING in God, In HIS promise, and in HIS work, and ACKNOWLEDGING I am hopeless.

And as I already proved, The HS DOES help a person dead in Christ to have faith. who do you think SHOWS them the truth, Convicts them of truth, and BRINGS them to repentance.

God is all powerful, he can do anything, He does not need to make one born again first. all he has to do is act as a guide to lead them.

Another guide is the law. How can not law guide us if we can not spend time understanding the law.

Your caught in a rut, in the doctrine of men, and are afraid to see truth.

And again John 6: 39 is based on men who have seen Jesus, Have taken the words of eternal life he came to teach FROM THE SPIRIT, and come to TRUST (have faith) IN what they have eaten.

if your going to continue to destroy context of a passage, anythign you say of that passage is meaningless. as are your words.

In your post #482, you made the statement that "hearing and believing is what saves us". I agree with you that hearing and believing does deliver (save) us in a timely salvation after we have already been saved eternally by God's grace I am sorry to burst your bubble, but hearing and believing does not fit the natural man, void of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14). If after you hear and believe, then you take action on your hearing and believing, that is eternal salvation by works of man. Even though you claim that you are saved eternally by God's grace alone, you are still taking credit for yourself (by the statements that you make) that is due to God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

John 6 is not about communion.

Have you ever read the whole passage. You can not take it to mean communion with everything else jesus said in the passage. That is taking him completely out of context.

You have to look beyond just the earthly meaning in scriptures and start using the Spiritual meaning as well.
The purpose of taking the communion (Lord's supper) is part of living properly by His word, which is the only point you are looking at as the context is about living by His word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To reject any part of His words is to reject Him for we are to live by all that He said, not part. To reject part of what He said because you deem it is impossible to keep is using your own understanding and not His knowledge.

so when are you going to start listening the the spirit. and stop listening to men?

Just a question

You keep saying this yet I have seen you go by a number of man's teachings over what the bible actually says, yet you claim the same fallacy on others that you do yourself. Apostle Paul speaks of doing such things in Romans 2:3, and states that doing such is wrong as well. You claim people follow man's doctrines and fail to admit how you do yourself.....
And just to clarify I follow the Word of God and His Holy Spirit's guidance, as I left all teachings of man behind !!!

if your going to keep ignoring the rest of John 6 and context. Then you are no better then ken here. And not even worth listening to.

Not to be rude, but your continued focusing on one verse and ignoring the rest of the context is childish.

John 6: 39 says nothing other than whoever God gave jesus, they can not be lost.

That supports eternal security, not that jesus only died for a certain group of people.

Your adding to the word.

Still more demeaning remarks toward those you disagree with as if you are completely right 100% of the time, and everybody else is wrong and walking in false doctrine if they don't agree with you. You do realize the bible warns about this kind of attitude toward others ???

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This analogy seems plausible at first look. But it seems like you're saying that your dad did not only have to pay the $1000. He also had to literally become the offender besides paying the debt. Taking your place as the offender however does not make him one.

No it does not say that at all, or is it implied, nor is it even plausible.

The debt paid is the penalty imposed. nothing more, nothing less.

I am probably worse than unreasonable. If we get back to topic, what I want to hammer home is that you've gotta have Bible for such dramatic statements as "Jesus died spiritually" and "Jesus was born again at the cross". These are too huge things to just brush off with some nice sounding analogies. It kinda boggles my mind that so few here have reacted against these statements, as I am sure most do NOT agree with such.

Why does it boggle your mind?

The penalty of sin is physical death (spiritual death represented by the 1000 dollars) jesus paid the debt (spiritual death or 1000 dollors)

if he died spiritually, is he going to remain spiritually dead (separated from God) or is God going to restor that fellowship once the penalty is paid in full?

Again, it is not rocket science, your trying to make it something more complicated than it really is.

No problem so far. I'd agree with this.

well this (god turning his back on him for my sin (is also known as spiritual death) it was far more painful when God for the first time in eternity and Jesus had a broken or severed link (god turned his back) then any punishment or pain inflicted by the roman soldiers, the cross. or anything else man could have dished out.

This is what Caused him to cry out in pain.

Jesus suffered that penalty, but not by way of literally becoming a sinner. Thus no need to be "born again".

Again, your making it to complicated.

Jesus died spiritually (God forsook him) then that life was restored

He died physically, yet that life was restored.

Someone who reads the Bible flatly literally calls me narrow minded? lol. I wouldn't have any objection to the above, it's when you bring Jesus into that equation that the signal goes.

You are teaching that Jesus died spiritually and was born again at the cross. These are rather odd...well, extreme, stuff on par with forsha's "faith of Christ". I wonder where you actually got this teaching from (and don't say the Bible). Is your pastor teaching this? Or is this your personal belief? Care to tell us?

It is called study of the word of God.

I am said to be dead in sin, yet I am still physically alive, that death was my penalty for sin. The bible says Jesus took my death, and paid it in full.

So how can I justify any though of this

1. When he declared "it is finished" before he died physically
2. How could physical death be the penalty, When I was said to be spiritually dead, and must be "born again" or made alive in Christ, even though my physical does not change state?

I do not blindly listen to anyone, if I hear it, or see it, I test what they say, then see if it lines up with Gods word.

Am I the only one who believes this? No. Did I get this teaching from someone else? No. I studied it myself.

I was taught as a child that america is babylon, and will be destroyed by the beast. Just because someone says something doe snot make it true, we should never take anyone blindly and follow them, no matter how much we trust them as our pastors or teachers. They are just human.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In your post #482, you made the statement that "hearing and believing is what saves us". I agree with you that hearing and believing does deliver (save) us in a timely salvation after we have already been saved eternally by God's grace I am sorry to burst your bubble, but hearing and believing does not fit the natural man, void of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14). If after you hear and believe, then you take action on your hearing and believing, that is eternal salvation by works of man. Even though you claim that you are saved eternally by God's grace alone, you are still taking credit for yourself (by the statements that you make) that is due to God.

hate to burst your bible.

But that same hearing and believing statement by paul. says we were saved (born again) AFTER we heard and believed.

No. I can not take credit for my faith, because I DID NOTHING TO EARN IT!

you will not see me on the streat corner boasting of how great I am because I trusted someone else to do ALL the work to save me, I will be placed in a looney bin as a man who lost his mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have to look beyond just the earthly meaning in scriptures and start using the Spiritual meaning as well.
The purpose of taking the communion (Lord's supper) is part of living properly by His word, which is the only point you are looking at as the context is about living by His word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To reject any part of His words is to reject Him for we are to live by all that He said, not part. To reject part of what He said because you deem it is impossible to keep is using your own understanding and not His knowledge.

so what does this have to do with

1. working for food which endures to eteernal life
2. Whoever eats the food I give them will never hunger or thirst
3. The bread I give you, one may eat of it and never die (unlike the bread God gave moses, which people continued to eat regularly, yet still died)
4. That if you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will live forever, and I will raise you up on the last day.

in all these things, Jesus related the word eating to belief in the one he sent, after they heard the words he gave, it is the spirit who gives life, the words I speak are spirit and they are life.

so can you tell me how any of this relates to communion. since communion would more resemble manna in the dessert, which one eats continually, yet will still die? how do they relate ken? I am going to break your comments to me up, because you have to answer these questions.. if you want to continue to have this conversation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


James 1:22

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.



Hearers only the bible calls deceived and do not have their faith rooted in the Lord, so one can not be saved unto eternal life by being a hearer only........

 

[psychomom]

you will not see me on the streat corner boasting of how great I am because I trusted someone else to do ALL the work to save me, I will be placed in a looney bin as a man who lost his mind.

1 Cor 1:20-25
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

hate to burst your bible.

If after you hear and believe, then you take action on your hearing and believing, that is eternal salvation by works of man. Even though you claim that you are saved eternally by God's grace alone, you are still taking credit for yourself (by the statements that you make) that is due to God.

How do you reconcile this passage with what you claim here?

John 9, NASB
35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
36 He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"
37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you."
38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him.
​

This is the young man blind from birth. It took the miracle of his restored eyesight for his "eyes to be opened" -- to see the truth. It was when he saw the truth that he believed. The Pharisees, scribes, and council members saw the exact same thing, but their eyes remained closed.

That doesn't fit with your "gospel," Forsha. At least, it doesn't appear to me to do so.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have to look beyond just the earthly meaning in scriptures and start using the Spiritual meaning as well.

My interpretation IS the spiritual meaning!

The food, the flesh and blood, the bread of heaven are SPIRITUAL TERMS which represent the words of Christ given to every one of us, which we must chew on, gnaw on, and understand completely. so we can do what Jesus said Believe in him, and when we do. we will recieve EVERYTHING jesus said we will get for doing that.

Communion gives you NON OF THOSE THINGS.

in fact Ken, it is YOU who are not looking at the SPIRITUAL asect. but like the catholic church, the physical!

You keep saying this yet I have seen you go by a number of man's teachings over what the bible actually says, yet you claim the same fallacy on others that you do yourself. Apostle Paul speaks of doing such things in Romans 2:3, and states that doing such is wrong as well. You claim people follow man's doctrines and fail to admit how you do yourself.....
And just to clarify I follow the Word of God and His Holy Spirit's guidance, as I left all teachings of man behind !!!

Yeah? aint it funny how you did not name one..

Still more demeaning remarks toward those you disagree with as if you are completely right 100% of the time, and everybody else is wrong and walking in false doctrine if they don't agree with you. You do realize the bible warns about this kind of attitude toward others ???

Your not disagreeing with me ken, your disagreeing with the word. Like the other person, You have refused to even acknowledge anything else was even said in john 6. Your stuck on one or two verses. and demand we listen to you, while completely ignoring the rest of everything Jesus said.

Is that how we are supposed to study the word? Thats how we came up with so many denominations and belief systems. Because we pick and chose a few verses here and there, and ignore the rest of what is being said, and make up our own doctrine,

If I did this, I could make the word of God say anything I want, sadly that is what people do!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope, I am saying that it would be sufficient to pay the debt in full. Not less or more than that. You are saying that the one who takes your place as offender also need to become an offender himself in order to have the debt paid.

No, I have never said this, not once have I even insinuated this.

and this is getting to the point of being rediculous that you keep saying I do.

1000 dollars (penalty) equals spiritual death (penalty)

they paid the penalty, they did not commit the crime, if they commited the crim, they would have to pay their own deabt, they could not pay mine!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


James 1:22

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.



Hearers only the bible calls deceived and do not have their faith rooted in the Lord, so one can not be saved unto eternal life by being a hearer only........

yet none of these prove that salvation can be lost. in fact they prove eternal security, because your either a doer, or your not. either saved or not. no inbetween.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Cor 1:20-25
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

amen sis, it gets no clearer than this.

 

[kennethcadwell]

so what does this have to do with

1. working for food which endures to eteernal life
2. Whoever eats the food I give them will never hunger or thirst
3. The bread I give you, one may eat of it and never die (unlike the bread God gave moses, which people continued to eat regularly, yet still died)
4. That if you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will live forever, and I will raise you up on the last day.

in all these things, Jesus related the word eating to belief in the one he sent, after they heard the words he gave, it is the spirit who gives life, the words I speak are spirit and they are life.

so can you tell me how any of this relates to communion. since communion would more resemble manna in the dessert, which one eats continually, yet will still die? how do they relate ken? I am going to break your comments to me up, because you have to answer these questions.. if you want to continue to have this conversation.

Because those who live by all of His teachings which are in the bible will never be sent to eternal punishment, and taking communion is part of His word. We can not just pick and choose which parts we want to obey, and which ones we don't. Just because another denomination may misuse how it is done does not make it wrong to do, and therefore just cancel it out all together.
We are to live by all that He taught and not just portions of it, as we are to confirm our lives to His will and not the other way around. Communion is the outer expression of the inside faith in Christ we have, and Lord Jesus clearly said we are not to hide our faith but let it shine before the world. Denying to obey the commands of outer expression of ones faith is just as disobedient as denying the power of the Holy Spirit who works within us.

Because to say one's outer actions do not matter when it comes to salvation is living in a partial lie, as our outer actions come from the changing and working of the Holy Spirit. Which is why Jesus said no fruits produced in the believer, there is no eternal life/salvation abiding in them. Therefore those who have no fruit will be gathered and burned......

 

[tribesman]

Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


James 1:22

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.



Hearers only the bible calls deceived and do not have their faith rooted in the Lord, so one can not be saved unto eternal life by being a hearer only........

Do the do the word of God starts with trusting the Lord Jesus Christ alone for your salvation and stop trusting your own efforts of law keeping to hopefully save you one day. In older times it was called gospel repentance. Believing on Him for your justification. If one does not do the will of God in that regard, then all other things one does to vainly try to gain God's favor are filthy rags and abominations to Him.