"It is finished." What is the "it?"

[forsha]

actually yes it is, if your afraid to say, I can only assume your like many in here who do not go to church, or have no faith in your church.

being born again is the result of being converted.

if your not converted, your still in sin

if your still in sin, you have not been made alive (born again)

because the penalty of sin is death, one can not be made alive while he is still under the penalty of sin.

Sorry, but you have it backwards; The new birth comes before any spiritual actions of man. Converted means a turning around, and the only way a man can turn from his sinful ways is if he has already been born of the Spirit. Try to see if you can make any sense out of 1 Cor 2:14 with the natural man being converted without first being born of the Spirit.

 

[forsha]

actually yes it is, if your afraid to say, I can only assume your like many in here who do not go to church, or have no faith in your church.

being born again is the result of being converted.

if your not converted, your still in sin

if your still in sin, you have not been made alive (born again)

because the penalty of sin is death, one can not be made alive while he is still under the penalty of sin.

I go to church every Sunday and sometimes on Friday and Saturdays. I also travel many miles to attend special meetings, sometime in other states.

 

[ChristInUs]

why? nothing wrong with church as long as it lines up. So why go to other states. It sounds like boasting to me. I could be wrong. The best church is in your bed room or prayer closet

 

[yaright]

if your going to keep ignoring the rest of John 6 and context. Then you are no better then ken here. And not even worth listening to.

Not to be rude, but your continued focusing on one verse and ignoring the rest of the context is childish.

John 6: 39 says nothing other than whoever God gave jesus, they can not be lost.

That supports eternal security, not that jesus only died for a certain group of people.

Your adding to the word.

Today I understand that the reading of the bible is one thing; but when some of the parts begin to come together into a personal understanding of who we are and why we are that way in God's sight, then it becomes something new. It is no longer the same old story being read over and over again with no personal connection. When a person is in the beginning of his or her walk, whether that is days or decades, this distinction remains the same; There is little if any evidence to that person, of who he is and why he is that way in God's sight. It is not uncommon for those who sense no personal connection to blame God. This lack of understanding comes from pointing outwardly towards the world and saying, "See what evil there is!" This will not change until the burden of sin causes a person to look inwardly and saying, "My heart and mind are corrupt!" This is the intended purpose of law, which leads a person to Christ who forgives. So, a person, like yourself, is able to see where a person is, and chooses to be; because you also started somewhere, and the thoughts of the heart become a witness of Christ's work in your life today. Great witness of purpose! Thank you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What verses in John 6 do you want me to address?

lol. Is this how you do things? I have only mentioned the verses in about 6 or 7 posts. and you want to ask again? How about from vs 26 - 65. which is one conversation and one context of the passage in question.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see that you are struggling to try to place the timely salvations and the eternal salvation together and still get them to harmonize. I do understand that the only way that a person can make good sense of the scriptures, they have to be revealed by the Holy Spirit within them. Man's intellect will never be able to harmonize the scriptures.

so why do you use mans intulect.

Eternal salvation is the topic. Not a person having blessings in ones life. Seems like your trying to run off on side streats, and not sticking to the topic.. Are you afraid?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, but you have it backwards; The new birth comes before any spiritual actions of man. Converted means a turning around, and the only way a man can turn from his sinful ways is if he has already been born of the Spirit. Try to see if you can make any sense out of 1 Cor 2:14 with the natural man being converted without first being born of the Spirit.

no, your still stuck in a rut.

Your claiming I converted myself. I can not convert myself. God has to convert me, Stop trying to take credit for your conversion your sounding like an arminian.

2nd, as I already told you. The HS teaches you the things of God. BECAUSE you can not understand them, It does not mean you have to be saved first. For you are still dead in your sin until you are justified, then and ONLY THEN can you be born again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I go to church every Sunday and sometimes on Friday and Saturdays. I also travel many miles to attend special meetings, sometime in other states.

so your afraid to say what church?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

why? nothing wrong with church as long as it lines up. So why go to other states. It sounds like boasting to me. I could be wrong. The best church is in your bed room or prayer closet

do you have 2 or 3 people in your bedroom or closet?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Today I understand that the reading of the bible is one thing; but when some of the parts begin to come together into a personal understanding of who we are and why we are that way in God's sight, then it becomes something new. It is no longer the same old story being read over and over again with no personal connection. When a person is in the beginning of his or her walk, whether that is days or decades, this distinction remains the same; There is little if any evidence to that person, of who he is and why he is that way in God's sight. It is not uncommon for those who sense no personal connection to blame God. This lack of understanding comes from pointing outwardly towards the world and saying, "See what evil there is!" This will not change until the burden of sin causes a person to look inwardly and saying, "My heart and mind are corrupt!" This is the intended purpose of law, which leads a person to Christ who forgives. So, a person, like yourself, is able to see where a person is, and chooses to be; because you also started somewhere, and the thoughts of the heart become a witness of Christ's work in your life today. Great witness of purpose! Thank you.

Thank you for those kind words, they are humbling

 

[popeye]

[h=2]Re: "It is finished." What is the "it?"[/h]

............lol............

 

[Elin]

Re: "It is finished." What is the "it?"



............lol............

The last refuge of a false argument based in nothing Biblical.

 

[popeye]

I wanted to add that no man but JESUS was able to fulfill the perfect standard of GOD.The law had to be fulfilled by a man if man was going to have a relationship with GOD because GOD gave dominion of the earth to man and a gift is not a gift unless you are able to do with that gift what you want.

JESUS fulfilled the perfect standard of GOD and paid the sin debt that was required by law and gave us that would believe in the WORD of GOD righteousness.

We have access to this Grace through faith.

Thank you.

The lamb that was sacrificed according to the PATTERN

That is exactly the answer to the op.

Thanks for wading in,through the muck and mire of this thread to open a window of understanding.

 

[popeye]

View attachment 102596

"spinach is READY ! " "COME AND GET IT!"

Uh,huh.
I already noted your blatant hatred some time ago. Get off me junior,and go attack someone else

 

[Elin]

Thank you.

The lamb that was sacrificed according to the PATTERN

That is exactly the answer to the op.

Thanks for wading in,through the muck and mire of this thread to open a window of understanding.

Yes, according to the pattern, type, shadow.

Now that the patterns, types and shadows have been fulfilled, we live with the reality itself instead of its shadows.

 

[DavidKFriend]

No you're right. Completed is better

 

[tribesman]

...The debt paid is the penalty imposed. nothing more, nothing less.

That's right. And that is enough, right? But you are adding "Jesus died spiritually" and "Jesus was born again", hence we are discussing it.

Why does it boggle your mind?

The penalty of sin is physical death (spiritual death represented by the 1000 dollars) jesus paid the debt (spiritual death or 1000 dollors)

if he died spiritually, is he going to remain spiritually dead (separated from God) or is God going to restor that fellowship once the penalty is paid in full?

Again, it is not rocket science, your trying to make it something more complicated than it really is.

I make no complications at all, since I want to stay with the text about this crucial event. You are adding the concept of spiritual death to Christ's atonement, which the text is dead silent about. For your logic it might be fine and dandy, but we would be dealing with scripture here.

well this (god turning his back on him for my sin (is also known as spiritual death) it was far more painful when God for the first time in eternity and Jesus had a broken or severed link (god turned his back) then any punishment or pain inflicted by the roman soldiers, the cross. or anything else man could have dished out.

This is what Caused him to cry out in pain.

We are in agreement here save for your idea of the "spiritual death" of Christ. And I would like to add that the forsaking in question was not of the nature that Christ lost His Sonship, it was not one of nature, essence, or substance. He did not in any sense or to any degree cease to exist as the Son of God.

Again, your making it to complicated. Jesus died spiritually (God forsook him) then that life was restored He died physically, yet that life was restored.

Here is where your complication comes in, if He died spiritually, then how was He born again, "restored"? He had to be be born again just like Adam?

It is called study of the word of God.

I am said to be dead in sin, yet I am still physically alive, that death was my penalty for sin. The bible says Jesus took my death, and paid it in full.

So how can I justify any though of this

1. When he declared "it is finished" before he died physically
2. How could physical death be the penalty, When I was said to be spiritually dead, and must be "born again" or made alive in Christ, even though my physical does not change state?

I do not blindly listen to anyone, if I hear it, or see it, I test what they say, then see if it lines up with Gods word.

The penalty for sin was several different things. All pertaining to the wrath of God. The atonement appeases this wrath of God. And saves souls from His judgment.

Am I the only one who believes this? No. Did I get this teaching from someone else? No. I studied it myself.

I was taught as a child that america is babylon, and will be destroyed by the beast. Just because someone says something doe snot make it true, we should never take anyone blindly and follow them, no matter how much we trust them as our pastors or teachers. They are just human.

As for the notions of "Jesus died spiritually" AND "Jesus was born again", there are not many who teach both of these, although they may differ on the timing of Jesus' new birth, at least not openly. You would find them primarily among the Word of Faith movement and finding listings of some names who advocate such can be done by search engines.

 

[tribesman]

...(penalty) equals spiritual death (penalty)...

First, can you give any flat, literal scripture for this statement? Secondly, if you say that 'Jesus died spiritually' and had to be 'born again', which you say happened at the cross, then how can you reconcile these two without having Christ becoming a sinner?

 

[tribesman]

I do not trust in my own efforts nor do I trust in the law, so both once again are flawed accusations when it comes to me.

I would hope it was like you said. So far however I haven't seen you setting your hope for eternity for anything else than your efforts and abilities. You do not divide the scriptures and distinguish law and gospel.

Second I agree with the doing the will of God, but people once again have a misconception when it comes to the word believe. They say believe and love is the will of God, which is true but both are continuation words as one who continues to love and continues to believe in the Lord will have eternal life. (Come, hear, and do)All 3 parts make up a true believer, and not just one or two..........

Then "people" are wrong. Correctly the word implies continuation. What makes someone continue in the Lord is however not the effort of that person, it is God who works in them "to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil.2:13). And this pleasure includes the ability to "dividing the word of truth" (2Tim.2:15), which includes dividing law and gospel. To rightly understand what is law and what is gospel. Our own efforts makes no difference for our salvation, that difference is already made through the person and work of Jesus Christ. That is the gospel. If you do not understand this then it is because you are consulting the law where only the gospel should be consulted and there is lack of faith in what Christ did.

Like I have said to E.G. to cancel out any part of this is to show that one's faith is not truly rooted in the Lord. And to show we must continue in the faith to receive eternal life as the Apostle Paul stated many times here are a couple scriptures again that show one after receiving the Lord can still end up not having eternal life if they fall away from that belief;

We continue because Jesus is "the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2). It is not our own doing, "not of yourselves" (Eph.2:8).

 

[fredjames]

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." -John 19:30

My hubby and I were discussing this Scripture last night, and we are in agreement (although we come to it in different ways) that the "it" is the debt that Jesus paid for us all -- the fulfillment of the Law.

So what say you? How would you describe the "it?"

Yes indeed, the 'fulfillment' of the 'Law and the Prophets' that JESUS of Nazareth 'accomplished', in all it's requirement, in order to 'quench' the righteous 'wrath' of GOD's 'justice' on the 'guilty'.

Therefore then the 'New Covenant' is made and established and given to HIS now newly 'redeemed' people from 'sin' and 'death'. And so Christians 'abide' in all of them, in order to 'fulfill' the assured promise of Eternal Life.