THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[newbirth]

What example did James use to show us a living faith or faith with works? Rahab the Harlot...who just let some folks stay in her house because she believed in the God of Israel...so for some to try and twist this back to dead works of law is just a great error...this is not for you Dcon...just seemed a good place to add the thought

what Rahab did was a work of faith....you guys have problems with works of faith?....just show your faith without works...I have not seen anyone try to go back to works of the law....I have seen some flatly deny all works of faith even calling it sin

 

[Brainfreeze]

Of course he loved me first!! Mitspa, I feel like the old me should've been dead years ago, I know guys I ran with that are doing 25 to life right now, I could've been pushed off balconies years ago... It's only by HIS grace I've made it this far, and not only alive but alive through Him, I can not repay YAH for His love that he's shown me, His mercy is outweighed by anything known to man, along with His love.. Something I never stop thanking Him for brother..

Must add,
not only saving me, but opening my eyes with understanding beyond anything I've ever grasped and miracles I didn't think we're possible, He's to real and to powerful and His love is without definition " it's to much ", I don't have a word for the way I'm thankful to Him.. Yes His love, His love, His love brother... Spot on!

 

[Mitspa]

what Rahab did was a work of faith....you guys have problems with works of faith?....just show your faith without works...I have not seen anyone try to go back to works of the law....I have seen some flatly deny all works of faith even calling it sin

Where did you get that I have a problem with the works of faith? Im the one who made the point about rahab and have promoted a level of works in faith and love that is far beyond what any natural man could accomplish in his own ability... Please post anything that in any way represents what you are saying here?

 

[Atwood]

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Ministration of DEATH, written and engraved on stones ...only the Ten Commandments was written and engraved on stones. That has passed away and we now serve God. not according to the "letter" but according to the "Spirit"[/QUOTE]

It looks to me like there really is no debate in the Word of God; just a bold assertion of grace with a bold denunciation of legalism.

Unfortunately, it is understandable how grace would not be too popular because its corollary is depravity. And what sinner wants to admit that he is so vile that he must be saved by grace? I can hear pride claiming: "Why I deserve validation of my wonderful works; in fact God would be privileged to have in Heaven such a wonderful fellow as myself. "

 

[Mitspa]

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Ministration of DEATH, written and engraved on stones ...only the Ten Commandments was written and engraved on stones. That has passed away and we now serve God. not according to the "letter" but according to the "Spirit"[/QUOTE]

It looks to me like there really is no debate in the Word of God; just a bold assertion of grace with a bold denunciation of legalism.

I think there is about 20 pages of debate...and I have tried to answer any reasonable point as well as others have. Now if the charge is that I am bold about the gospel ...yes as was Paul "im not ashamed" and does legalism need to be challenged for the false doctrine it is? Yes "cast out the bondwoman"

 

[Butch5]

Metaphoric?...yea I have heard how some make the bible metaphoric when it don't line up with what they want it to say...you can believe its metaphoric or whatever...Ill just believe what it clearly says...

I guess when it says the Spirit gives life...that's just religious talk and not real...right?

It's interesting that you would say that. If you look at other translations you'll find that some translators capitalize the word spirit and some don't. So, obviously some of the translators see it my way and obviously there is some uncertainty as to exactly what Paul meant, so to claim one is changing it to fit their position is ridiculous.

 

[ChristIsGod]

I think there is about 20 pages of debate...and I have tried to answer any reasonable point as well as others have. Now if the charge is that I am bold about the gospel ...yes as was Paul "im not ashamed" and does legalism need to be challenged for the false doctrine it is? Yes "cast out the bondwoman"

If you're calling obedience, plain and simple obedience to The Word and The Spirit of Romans 8 "Legalism" then you are making a frightful mistake, not 'fully' agreeing with all of Paul's words.

 

[Brainfreeze]

thank You, Faithful Father, for providing a Way for us. ♥
thank You for your Grace and Mercy in the Person and Work of our Savior.
please continue, by Your Grace, to enable us to walk in Your Ways.

I apologize for snipping your post psychomom but wanted to highlight some things that belongs in the thread and that will help hopefully some or someone..

Yahshua, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness


He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


Colossians 2:6 - As ye have therefore received Christ Yahshua the Messiah, [so] walk ye in him:


1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.


1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Yahshua. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Yahshua has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,…


Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


2 Peter 3:18 - But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Yahshua Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[newbirth]

Where did you get that I have a problem with the works of faith? Im the one who made the point about rahab and have promoted a level of works in faith and love that is far beyond what any natural man could accomplish in his own ability... Please post anything that in any way represents what you are saying here?

Originally Posted by Mitspa

What example did James use to show us a living faith or faith with works? Rahab the Harlot...who just let some folks stay in her house because she believed in the God of Israel...so for some to try and twist this back to dead works of law is just a great error...this is not for you Dcon...just seemed a good place to add the though

you conclude...... some try to twist this back to dead works of the law...it is like saying if one does something that is contained in the law it is evil....the law says do not kill...am I evil because I don't kill?
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[newbirth]

I think there is about 20 pages of debate...and I have tried to answer any reasonable point as well as others have. Now if the charge is that I am bold about the gospel ...yes as was Paul "im not ashamed" and does legalism need to be challenged for the false doctrine it is? Yes "cast out the bondwoman"

I am not to sure what one means by legalism....but if it has anything to do with what is legal...then you just made what is illegal truth...

 

[john832]

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Ministration of DEATH, written and engraved on stones ...only the Ten Commandments was written and engraved on stones. That has passed away and we now serve God. not according to the "letter" but according to the "Spirit"

So ONLY the Ten Commandments were written and engraved on stone and that has passed away?

Interesting, that leaves all the Laws, Statutes and Judgments of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy still in full force and effect.

 

[john832]

I thought we was going to kinda go point by point? Now what im teaching is the ONLY biblical way to keep the Commandments of God...because they cannot be kept by looking to the written code to justify.

So, what you are saying is that one can't really keep the sixth Commandment in the letter? That is a really odd thing to say, I have lived for 65 years without EVER killing anyone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well that charge must come when the true gospel is preached...its part of the deal with the gospel, is that some will make a false charge of lawlessness...but I have proven in clear words and scripture that I am teaching a standard that is above the ability of man to read rules and keep them in the his own power. And Paul said he became as Jew to the Jews to win them to Christ ...Ill just post it...

1Co 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


We also see his absolute rebuke of those who tried to lay parts of the law on the churches...

Amen, He was all things to all people. We saw the open chastening of peter for offending Gentiles by following rules of the law concerning meat.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can simplify this really easy...

What was in the very core of the presence of Yah here on earth while the temple was a building?
What was IN the ark of the covenant? Not what was on the outside, what was inside the ark of the covenant?
What was the ONLY thing we have that was written by the finger of Yah himself?

According to some reports I have seen, those very ten commandments, written by the finger of Yah will be seen again, by the entire world. That ark of the covenant is still here, under protection of angels, and there will come a day when we will see those two tables of stone again.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Yes

the ten commandments were in the ark, As a testimony AGAINST MAN. As man has not fulfilled the requirement of those ten commandments (to confirm and OBEY all the words written)

You also seem to forget what the sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat. The things which prove mans condemnation (The law and the rod which budded) are hidden from the sight of God. thus he can show mercy on his children.

The law is still there, it will never pass away, But if the blood is not sprinkled on the mercy seat, the law will condemn.

 

[Mitspa]

If you're calling obedience, plain and simple obedience to The Word and The Spirit of Romans 8 "Legalism" then you are making a frightful mistake, not 'fully' agreeing with all of Paul's words.

What? where did I say obedience in faith and love to Gods Word is legalism? Please post that!

 

[Mitspa]

you conclude...... some try to twist this back to dead works of the law...it is like saying if one does something that is contained in the law it is evil....the law says do not kill...am I evil because I don't kill?
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

"works of the law" is a clear biblical term that most should understand? And we establish and uphold the law for its lawful purpose to make all guilty before God and bring all to Christ.... read just a few verses before 31 and you can see the context of upholding the law.. Not to justify but to condemn all.

And all should repent from dead works!

 

[Mitspa]

I am not to sure what one means by legalism....but if it has anything to do with what is legal...then you just made what is illegal truth...

Well its a pretty common term but its not easy to understand...basically its a work of the flesh to attempt to justify the flesh before God through obedience that is not in the Spirit. But I think its fair to explore the term and try to get a better understanding...

 

[Mitspa]

So ONLY the Ten Commandments were written and engraved on stone and that has passed away?

Interesting, that leaves all the Laws, Statutes and Judgments of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy still in full force and effect.

No the law is "all things written in the book of the law" every jot and tittle... Now the Ten is for sure the core and source of the law as we see when it was given.

 

[Mitspa]

So, what you are saying is that one can't really keep the sixth Commandment in the letter? That is a really odd thing to say, I have lived for 65 years without EVER killing anyone.

Well you cant just keep one and say "look at me" you have to keep them ALL perfectly...at all times....and its also written that if you hate another your guilty of murder...by the letter of the Law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"works of the law" is a clear biblical term that most should understand? And we establish and uphold the law for its lawful purpose to make all guilty before God and bring all to Christ.... read just a few verses before 31 and you can see the context of upholding the law.. Not to justify but to condemn all.

And all should repent from dead works!

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Sadly, People have not stopped their mouth, because they still do not see the purpose of the law. And are not personally condemned by it.

If they were, legalism would not be so powerful.

The power of legalism is the flesh.