THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[kennethcadwell]

Yes if we walk in faith and love these type works will flow from us by the divine nature of God at work in us...If you really get the gospel you will go looking for people to help because Gods love in you will compel you beyond a list of rules. Love not only don't steal ..it looks for a place to give...thats what I have been trying to explain on this thread. But under the law, the desire to covet is stirred up in the flesh of those under the law.

Yes, but the thing I keep bringing up is that not only are we to look at His commands and teachings as an everyday part of our lives instead of a list of laws and rules. We also are to know and understand the context in scripture when it is referring to the mosaic laws, and God's moral laws, for it does separate the two.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes Paul was saying that to the Galatians because they were trying to earn salvation through the works of the mosaic law, and not that they received their faith through the hearing of the Word.
Peter was charged for letting it get this way by trying to force the Gentiles to live and follow the laws like the Jews. I have said this already, but they still preached the same Jesus and His teachings. Peter as others wanted to still keep all of the laws as some Jews do still today. Paul taught the only truth that was to be taught from the beginning, that the gospel is apart from the mosaic laws.

Yes and he gives us the clear context that these errors was coming from the Jews like James and Peter...thats why he said Peter was to be blamed for not walking in the truth of the gospel...That's why he rebuked Peter before them all...so they would know that his authority in the gospel was from God and not from men.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes and he gives us the clear context that these errors was coming from the Jews like James and Peter...thats why he said Peter was to be blamed for not walking in the truth of the gospel...That's why he rebuked Peter before them all...so they would know that his authority in the gospel was from God and not from men.

This though just showed that the gospel was the same that Peter preached to the Jews, that Paul preached to the Gentiles.
Peter was called out for fault of doing what we all do, or have done and that is let our own wants and needs get in the way of what Jesus wants us to do.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, but the thing I keep bringing up is that not only are we to look at His commands and teachings as an everyday part of our lives instead of a list of laws and rules. We also are to know and understand the context in scripture when it is referring to the mosaic laws, and God's moral laws, for it does separate the two.

yes we should always keep the commandment of Christ before us...to love as He has loved us...if some did that I promise a lot of this trying to find fault or sin in others would stop...and instead of preaching the law (the strength of sin) we would be teaching people the grace of Christ that empowers us to overcome sin. No one has overcome sin except by grace...if they "think" they have through the law? They have been deceived just like the Pharisees.

 

[Mitspa]

This though just showed that the gospel was the same that Peter preached to the Jews, that Paul preached to the Gentiles.
Peter was called out for fault of doing what we all do, or have done and that is let our own wants and needs get in the way of what Jesus wants us to do.

What it shows is that Peter had to submit to Pauls authority and revelation in the gospel....which we can see in Peters last epistle... Where the last thing he tells the world is listen to our brother Paul and grow in grace...

 

[psychomom]

i'm so sorry to those of you who've seen me post this twice already, but...
it seems it bears repeating...
(you can see some of the wonderful responses here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/101873-law-gospel.html)

there's a difference in the job descriptions of God's Law and God's Gospel.
a big difference.

and the failure to distinguish between Law and Gospel pretty much always leads to
abandonment of the Gospel.

the Law gets softened into helpful tips for practical living (go see Tony Robbins for that stuff!)
instead of God's unwavering demand for perfection.

and the Gospel gets hardened into a set of moral demands we must live out
instead of God's unconditional declaration that He justifies the ungodly.

the Law diagnoses sinners, but only the Gospel delivers sinners.

the Law illuminates sin, but only the Gospel eliminates sin.

the Law forces us to face our sin, but only the Gospel forgives our sin.

the Law exposes us, but only the Gospel exonerates us.

the Law accuses us, but only the Gospel acquits us.

thank You, Faithful Father, for providing a Way for us. ♥
thank You for your Grace and Mercy in the Person and Work of our Savior.
please continue, by Your Grace, to enable us to walk in Your Ways.

 

[Brainfreeze]

We still have to die to the flesh, Yahshua, died that we may find life... not of flesh life, but Holy Spirit life, Those who are still thinking of keeping laws are thinking carnal,

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.


2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

 

[Brainfreeze]

yes we should always keep the commandment of Christ before us...to love as He has loved us...if some did that I promise a lot of this trying to find fault or sin in others would stop...and instead of preaching the law (the strength of sin) we would be teaching people the grace of Christ that empowers us to overcome sin. No one has overcome sin except by grace...if they "think" they have through the law? They have been deceived just like the Pharisees.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

So if we love God/YAH " knowing this is the Who that gave it to us to love are neighbors " this hangs all the commandments..
then there's the other 8 fruits... that hang on love.. Goodness, gentleness, and so fourth.. This is by the Spirit/Him, not the law and not us

 

[Butch5]

lol are you serious? Is there another Spirit? that you know of?

Yes, I'm serious. The word spirit is used metaphorically. I'm sure you've heard the phrase, school spirit. I'm sure you didn't think that meant that the school had a ghost. If I said, "I'm with you in spirit" I don't think you'd assume that some immaterial part of me was following you around. I am suggesting that this is what the passage means the spirit of the Law, for instance, giving the tenth to God was to show love for God, that is the spirit of the command while the letter of the command is literally the tenth that is given. The Jews got so caught up in the actual physical aspects of the Law that they missed the real intent which came from the heart. God didn't need anything from the Jews, the giving of a tenth was a way for them to show their love for God yet they missed that when they got bogged down in the letter of the Law. Consider that that is why Jesus praised the woman who gave the two mites, He said it was out of her living not her excess. She was giving to God out of her need, she was putting herself in need to honor God, the Pharisees weren't they were simply giving of their excess. The woman understood the spirit of the Law, the Pharisees missed it.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Yes, I'm serious. The word spirit is used metaphorically. I'm sure you've heard the phrase, school spirit. I'm sure you didn't think that meant that the school had a ghost. If I said, "I'm with you in spirit" I don't think you'd assume that some immaterial part of me was following you around. I am suggesting that this is what the passage means the spirit of the Law, for instance, giving the tenth to God was to show love for God, that is the spirit of the command while the letter of the command is literally the tenth that is given. The Jews got so caught up in the actual physical aspects of the Law that they missed the real intent which came from the heart. God didn't need anything from the Jews, the giving of a tenth was a way for them to show their love for God yet they missed that when they got bogged down in the letter of the Law. Consider that that is why Jesus praised the woman who gave the two mites, He said it was out of her living not her excess. She was giving to God out of her need, she was putting herself in need to honor God, the Pharisees weren't they were simply giving of their excess. The woman understood the spirit of the Law, the Pharisees missed it.

No your using it metaphorically saying " your with someone in spirit " ... The Holy Ghost is not a metaphor..

 

[newbirth]

It seems obvious when you read James you miss the words....SHOW ME YOUR FAITH......

because faith without works is dead...it is show me your faith without works....your problem is you are wrestling against scripture trying to prove that faith without works....can save.....James is asking you the question ...can faith save ...and you always answer in the affirmative.....and he counters with.... faith without works is dead...before God and before men...faith without works is dead...you guys go so far to write your own scripture...faith alone saves ...but the faith that saves is never alone, total rubbish...
since you insist faith alone can save...show me how .....show me faith in Christ without works of faith...show how you submit to Christ's commands without works of faith...show the fruits of your repentance without works of faith...show obedience to Christ without works of faith...

 

[newbirth]

yes we should always keep the commandment of Christ before us...to love as He has loved us...if some did that I promise a lot of this trying to find fault or sin in others would stop...and instead of preaching the law (the strength of sin) we would be teaching people the grace of Christ that empowers us to overcome sin. No one has overcome sin except by grace...if they "think" they have through the law? They have been deceived just like the Pharisees.

and what is sin ...is it not transgression of the law? it is because of the law we identify sin...the law is not the enemy sin is...the law is like the binocular to identify sin so you can stay clear of it....Christ has taken away our sins and removed us from the law...if you don't recognise sin and become entangled in it...the law is waiting to condemn you ....

 

[kennethcadwell]

What it shows is that Peter had to submit to Pauls authority and revelation in the gospel....which we can see in Peters last epistle... Where the last thing he tells the world is listen to our brother Paul and grow in grace...

This is what Peter said about Paul in that epistle;

[h=1]2 Peter 3:15-16[/h]15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.


Peter says that Paul wrote to them on the same matters, not that he had more authority then him.
Then Peter says of Paul's writings, that unless you are taught or if you are unstable you will have a hard time understanding what Paul said and they will end up getting it twisted to their own destruction.
Which is what happens when people take and think that Paul taught different things, or change what Jesus had already said.

 

[Butch5]

No your using it metaphorically saying " your with someone in spirit " ... The Holy Ghost is not a metaphor..

I'm suggesting that the passage is not speaking of the Holy Spirit. The early Christians didn't understand this passage to be speaking of the Holy Spirit and I believe they are correct. Paul uses the word spirit metaphorically in other places.

KJV 1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, (1Co 5:3 KJV)

Surely he wasn't saying he was a ghost with them, no he's using it as a metaphor.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I'm suggesting that the passage is not speaking of the Holy Spirit. The early Christians didn't understand this passage to be speaking of the Holy Spirit and I believe they are correct. Paul uses the word spirit metaphorically in other places.

KJV 1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, (1Co 5:3 KJV)

Surely he wasn't saying he was a ghost with them, no he's using it as a metaphor.

He literally didn't care about what other men cared about " of the world and of flesh ", you couldn't get him to act, do, or with thought or deed do the things that others thought about that weren't in Spirit " Holy Ghost/Ra'Hohodesh " he crucified the flesh, to live in the Spirit.. There's plenty of verses on this, all over the New Testament ..

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


1 Corinthians 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[Mitspa]

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

So if we love God/YAH " knowing this is the Who that gave it to us to love are neighbors " this hangs all the commandments..
then there's the other 8 fruits... that hang on love.. Goodness, gentleness, and so fourth.. This is by the Spirit/Him, not the law and not us

I agree but would add that we first have to receive Gods love for us in Christ Jesus...consider John said that we love Him because He first loved us....That's the first commandment in the law...now we cannot love God until we first receive His love...it all works that way...we have nothing except what we first receive according to grace. Now all this works by the Spirit...the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit...this love flowing to us from the Father, should be real to every believer...then we take that love and love others with what we have been given.

 

[Butch5]

He literally didn't care about what other men cared about " of the world and of flesh ", you couldn't get him to act, do, or with thought or deed do the things that others thought about that weren't in Spirit " Holy Ghost/Ra'Hohodesh " he crucified the flesh, to live in the Spirit.. There's plenty of verses on this, all over the New Testament ..

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


1 Corinthians 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

The passage in question doesn't speak of the Holy Spirit, it speaks of the spirit of the Law.

KJV 2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2Co 3:6 KJV)

Notice even the translators don't think this is the Holy Spirit as they didn't capitalize the word spirit.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, I'm serious. The word spirit is used metaphorically. I'm sure you've heard the phrase, school spirit. I'm sure you didn't think that meant that the school had a ghost. If I said, "I'm with you in spirit" I don't think you'd assume that some immaterial part of me was following you around. I am suggesting that this is what the passage means the spirit of the Law, for instance, giving the tenth to God was to show love for God, that is the spirit of the command while the letter of the command is literally the tenth that is given. The Jews got so caught up in the actual physical aspects of the Law that they missed the real intent which came from the heart. God didn't need anything from the Jews, the giving of a tenth was a way for them to show their love for God yet they missed that when they got bogged down in the letter of the Law. Consider that that is why Jesus praised the woman who gave the two mites, He said it was out of her living not her excess. She was giving to God out of her need, she was putting herself in need to honor God, the Pharisees weren't they were simply giving of their excess. The woman understood the spirit of the Law, the Pharisees missed it.

Metaphoric?...yea I have heard how some make the bible metaphoric when it don't line up with what they want it to say...you can believe its metaphoric or whatever...Ill just believe what it clearly says...

I guess when it says the Spirit gives life...that's just religious talk and not real...right?

 

[Mitspa]

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life

I guess the letter don't really kill..either? "you shall not surely die" But when Paul teaches over and over the life that's in the Spirit...it has nothing to do with the life he is talking about here? lol I don't understand why people don't have some respect for Gods Word and a little fear of just making up whatever comes to their mind?

 

[Brainfreeze]

I agree but would add that we first have to receive Gods love for us in Christ Jesus...consider John said that we love Him because He first loved us....That's the first commandment in the law...now we cannot love God until we first receive His love...it all works that way...we have nothing except what we first receive according to grace. Now all this works by the Spirit...the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit...this love flowing to us from the Father, should be real to every believer...then we take that love and love others with what we have been given.

Of course he loved me first!! Mitspa, I feel like the old me should've been dead years ago, I know guys I ran with that are doing 25 to life right now, I could've been pushed off balconies years ago... It's only by HIS grace I've made it this far, and not only alive but alive through Him, I can not repay YAH for His love that he's shown me, His mercy is outweighed by anything known to man, along with His love.. Something I never stop thanking Him for brother..