THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Karraster]

Well the context of my last post was that the law and legalism in general blinds people from seeing the truth of the gospel, that you can look at any group that misleads people and promotes clear error and what you will find is forms of legalism to promote a false system that is contrary to the true grace of God. We often wonder why cant the people in these groups see that they are being mislead? My point is that they have been blinded and need to hear and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's so far off the rails there's not enough hours in the day to set it right. Only the Spirit of our Creator can open your eyes to scripture, to the miracles of the Son of the living Almighty, who made a distinction between the instructions from our Creator and added Rabbinic laws such as the washing of hands, which shoe to put on first, etc. You start jumping thru hoops that man has created and there is no end. Follow Messiah's example! He laid the plumb line straight and narrow and "grace" is not a license to sin. The definition of sin hasn't changed it is we who are supposed to change, to turn away from sin.

Last time I checked, lumping people into groups was called racism...somehow that's ok tho i guess, for a "christian".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Shucks, guess you didn't read the 15 verses after all.

I'll save you the effort ... the verses warn:
if your faith does not endure, you do not get eternal life!

who, if they had true faith in God, would not endure in faith?

I can only imagine you have never experienced true faith, or you would never make such a claim.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought we was going to kinda go point by point? Now what im teaching is the ONLY biblical way to keep the Commandments of God...because they cannot be kept by looking to the written code to justify.

Israel proved this, the letter did nothing to help them be righteous, All it did was prove their utter sinfulness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sure we admit and uphold the righteous standard of the law but we also admit the truth that being under the law we cannot fulfill and keep it.... That its actually produces sinful lust and desires in the flesh.

Thus, what the difference between us is.

It is one thing to want and desire to keep the laws of God. I think both parties wish to do this.

But unless we come to the point we understand that we can not keep the requirement of the law. we will never cry out to God our utter inability to do it, and admit we need a savior because we are totally helpless,

Instead we will continue to preach the law, and elevate ourselves above others who can not live up to OUR guidelines.

As the pharisees did, we make our own guideline, because we can not keep Gods guideline. And that somehow makes us feel better, Man has been doing this since the beginning of time.

 

[Mitspa]

Take the Sabbath...by the "letter" its a 24 hour day on Sat...now in the Spirit we cease from our own works and "rest" in the love of God... Thou shalt not covet ...is only fulfilled when we love others as ourselves and rejoice that others have..even if we don't have as much... Thou shalt not steal...is only fulfilled when we love the thief and give to others... What im teaching is the divine nature of God...but one cannot get there unless they die to self-righteousness and to the law.

I want folks to understand is im not trying to teach any form of lawlessness but a higher understanding of what God has called us to in Christ...A person set free from the law of Moses and walking in the "Law of Christ" will live a life that truly glorifies God and cannot be compared the fake mask of those who claim to be keeping "parts" of the law of Moses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You brought justify into it.


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Or is it that as soon as I physically read, "do not steal" and physically think, wow I shouldn't steal, it is then im evil and fallen because I read "the LETTER of the Law"

yet, as paul said, A gentile, who does not have the law. understood totally that to steal was a morally bad thing.

They did not need the letter to prove to them their sinfulness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I want folks to understand is im not trying to teach any form of lawlessness but a higher understanding of what God has called us to in Christ...A person set free from the law of Moses and walking in the "Law of Christ" will live a life that truly glorifies God and cannot be compared the fake mask of those who claim to be keeping "parts" of the law of Moses.

I just saw there were 10 pages already, I am a day late and a dollar short as usual..HA HA!!

 

[Mitspa]

That's so far off the rails there's not enough hours in the day to set it right. Only the Spirit of our Creator can open your eyes to scripture, to the miracles of the Son of the living Almighty, who made a distinction between the instructions from our Creator and added Rabbinic laws such as the washing of hands, which shoe to put on first, etc. You start jumping thru hoops that man has created and there is no end. Follow Messiah's example! He laid the plumb line straight and narrow and "grace" is not a license to sin. The definition of sin hasn't changed it is we who are supposed to change, to turn away from sin.

Last time I checked, lumping people into groups was called racism...somehow that's ok tho i guess, for a "christian".

Well the strength of sin is the law..and only those who die to the law and walk in the Spirit are living godly lives.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think if we look at the pharisee and tax collector we can see it plainly.

the tax collector looked to the letter. and thanked God he was not a sinner.

The tax collector look to the requirement of the law, and realized his plight and failure, and cried out for Gods mercy.

The tax collector was justified, Because the law did what it was given to do. The lawyer was not justified, because he failed to see what the law was sent to do.

Paul showed us what it was meant to do.

Gal 3: 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

(notice how paul makes it clear. Some people he spoke to may not even be saved)

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Thus, the gospel in a nutshell..

 

[Karraster]

I want folks to understand is im not trying to teach any form of lawlessness but a higher understanding of what God has called us to in Christ...A person set free from the law of Moses and walking in the "Law of Christ" will live a life that truly glorifies God and cannot be compared the fake mask of those who claim to be keeping "parts" of the law of Moses.

You sure could have fooled me. If that's the case, you're not promoting lawlessness, why keep throwing around the word "legalism"? Which by the way, I'd rather be "legal" than to be "illegal". Paul did not teach any to disobey, no, he lived a righteous life and told us to encourage each other to do the same. People who twist his words we are also told, do so to their own destruction.

You have already dodged one question I ask you, so I don't expect you to answer this, but I'm not the Almighty and I don't know everything, so here goes: Did you know that Paul kept the Feast days? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[dcontroversal]

First I have a question for you, and respectfully, please answer this at the BEGINNING OF YOUR REPLY. Please.

Did Peter and Paul make any mistakes in their ministry at ANY TIME? Did Messiah make any mistakes? Who is the prophet WE MUST HEAR AND OBEY?

Why no talk of if I accept John, Peter, Jude, James, etc? And was Paul's letter to a particular group to every other group? Yes they can all learn from his writings but they were tailored to SPECIFIC groups of people WITH SPECIFIC ISSUES, issues we DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you want to claim a doctrine out of the mouth of ONE man and it is not in the mouth of 2 or 3 not that the Scrip is wrong, but the interpretation may be wrong.

Who is singled out as hard to understand? And it just so happens that people isolate this writer that is hard to understand and build doctrines without considering other Scripture. So the error is not in Paul but in people's understanding.

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

This was written for a reason to ignore it is folly.

With that said All Scripture is profitable, but must be looked at as a whole IMO.

However there is only ONE who Yahweh said we must shamaw.

John (Yahchanan) 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Yeah and THAT ONE also said...I have MANY things to teach/tell you, but YOU ARE NOT YET READY or ABLE to bear them...Hence......Paul's writings, Peter's writings, Jude's writings etc.......The WHOLE BIBLE is inspired BY JESUS and it is ALL equally the word of GOD.........!

 

[ChristIsGod]

First I have a question for you, and respectfully, please answer this at the BEGINNING OF YOUR REPLY. Please.

Did Peter and Paul make any mistakes in their ministry at ANY TIME? Did Messiah make any mistakes? Who is the prophet WE MUST HEAR AND OBEY?

Why no talk of if I accept John, Peter, Jude, James, etc? And was Paul's letter to a particular group to every other group? Yes they can all learn from his writings but they were tailored to SPECIFIC groups of people WITH SPECIFIC ISSUES, issues we DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you want to claim a doctrine out of the mouth of ONE man and it is not in the mouth of 2 or 3 not that the Scrip is wrong, but the interpretation may be wrong.

Who is singled out as hard to understand? And it just so happens that people isolate this writer that is hard to understand and build doctrines without considering other Scripture. So the error is not in Paul but in people's understanding.

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

This was written for a reason to ignore it is folly.

With that said All Scripture is profitable, but must be looked at as a whole IMO.

However there is only ONE who Yahweh said we must shamaw.

John (Yahchanan) 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Oh man, you hit it out of the ballpark with this one.

I have Never heard anyone explain the most misunderstood men, Paul, be exonerated in a more Perfect way!

I'm still on page three but I didn't want to lose this post while I'm there.

Beautiful! As Paul is my favorite man - so to speak but his words are "wrest" more than almost any, including Jesus' half-brother James.

Paul clears himself in Romans 6-8 as well, but 7 is "wrested" by most.

Time to stand strong and thank you for not compromising to be "liked", Brother!

 

[Mitspa]

You sure could have fooled me. If that's the case, you're not promoting lawlessness, why keep throwing around the word "legalism"? Which by the way, I'd rather be "legal" than to be "illegal". Paul did not teach any to disobey, no, he lived a righteous life and told us to encourage each other to do the same. People who twist his words we are also told, do so to their own destruction.

You have already dodged one question I ask you, so I don't expect you to answer this, but I'm not the Almighty and I don't know everything, so here goes: Did you know that Paul kept the Feast days? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Well that charge must come when the true gospel is preached...its part of the deal with the gospel, is that some will make a false charge of lawlessness...but I have proven in clear words and scripture that I am teaching a standard that is above the ability of man to read rules and keep them in the his own power. And Paul said he became as Jew to the Jews to win them to Christ ...Ill just post it...

1Co 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


We also see his absolute rebuke of those who tried to lay parts of the law on the churches...

 

[newbirth]

yet, as paul said, A gentile, who does not have the law. understood totally that to steal was a morally bad thing.

They did not need the letter to prove to them their sinfulness.

the letter of the law is the proof of sin....that is why we die to the flesh in Christ ....the law has no power over the dead...those who are alive in Christ should serve the law of the Spirit of Christ....which is love ,goodness and mercy emanating from the heart which result in actions that are contained in the law...thus bringing the flesh under the subjection of the Spirit...thereby fulfilling the letter of the law...

Romans 7:6-8King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh man, you hit it out of the ballpark with this one.

I have Never heard anyone explain the most misunderstood men, Paul, be exonerated in a more Perfect way!

I'm still on page three but I didn't want to lose this post while I'm there.

Beautiful! As Paul is my favorite man - so to speak but his words are "wrest" more than almost any, including Jesus' half-brother James.

Paul clears himself in Romans 6-8 as well, but 7 is "wrested" by most.

Time to stand strong and thank you for not compromising to be "liked", Brother!

The bolded above was the following....
1. Assumes MOTIVE which you have no authority and or ability to do<--only God can see the hearts and motives of men
2. Is accusatory and seems to point at those who disagree with HIz<--Satan is the accuser of the brethren
3. Was uncalled for at the end of the day and was not needed to make your point of LIFTING UP ANOTHER MAN and what he believes!

 

[Chopper]

I can simplify this really easy...

What was in the very core of the presence of Yah here on earth while the temple was a building?
What was IN the ark of the covenant? Not what was on the outside, what was inside the ark of the covenant?
What was the ONLY thing we have that was written by the finger of Yah himself?

According to some reports I have seen, those very ten commandments, written by the finger of Yah will be seen again, by the entire world. That ark of the covenant is still here, under protection of angels, and there will come a day when we will see those two tables of stone again.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

[Karraster]

You sure could have fooled me. If that's the case, you're not promoting lawlessness, why keep throwing around the word "legalism"? Which by the way, I'd rather be "legal" than to be "illegal". Paul did not teach any to disobey, no, he lived a righteous life and told us to encourage each other to do the same. People who twist his words we are also told, do so to their own destruction.

You have already dodged one question I ask you, so I don't expect you to answer this, but I'm not the Almighty and I don't know everything, so here goes: Did you know that Paul kept the Feast days? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Well that charge must come when the true gospel is preached...its part of the deal with the gospel, is that some will make a false charge of lawlessness...but I have proven in clear words and scripture that I am teaching a standard that is above the ability of man to read rules and keep them in the his own power. And Paul said he became as Jew to the Jews to win them to Christ ...Ill just post it...

1Co 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


We also see his absolute rebuke of those who tried to lay parts of the law on the churches...

Did you know that Paul kept the Feast days? Why is that question hard to answer? It's no sin if you don't know if he did or not, so here's a third category...(I don't know! Leave me alone!)

 

[Chopper]

LOL Karraster!

The third category... too funny.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's so far off the rails there's not enough hours in the day to set it right. Only the Spirit of our Creator can open your eyes to scripture, to the miracles of the Son of the living Almighty, who made a distinction between the instructions from our Creator and added Rabbinic laws such as the washing of hands, which shoe to put on first, etc. You start jumping thru hoops that man has created and there is no end. Follow Messiah's example! He laid the plumb line straight and narrow and "grace" is not a license to sin. The definition of sin hasn't changed it is we who are supposed to change, to turn away from sin.

Last time I checked, lumping people into groups was called racism...somehow that's ok tho i guess, for a "christian".

Why don't you cut and paste where anyone has stated that grace is a license to sin.....!

 

[Karraster]

I can simplify this really easy...

What was in the very core of the presence of Yah here on earth while the temple was a building?
What was IN the ark of the covenant? Not what was on the outside, what was inside the ark of the covenant?
What was the ONLY thing we have that was written by the finger of Yah himself?

According to some reports I have seen, those very ten commandments, written by the finger of Yah will be seen again, by the entire world. That ark of the covenant is still here, under protection of angels, and there will come a day when we will see those two tables of stone again.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Praise Him and HallelYah! The earth quaked, the rocks rent, and the blood and the water poured out ..the witness of Almighty is greater!