Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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Unless the Bible gives us an indication or clue, I have no real way of knowing if the vinegar he drank was alcoholic or not. Besides, even if the vinegar was alcoholic, he was in an extreme amount of pain. Why is this important? Well, Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for the infirmities of his stomach (Because they did not have water purification back then like we do today). In other words, if the vinegar was alcoholic, it would have been to ease his pain and it was not for him to party or to have a good time. Wine can be used as a medicine to ease pain. Wine should not be used so that we can party or get drunk.
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Hollywood is not exactly into the fact giving business. They primarily sell fantasies and fiction to entertain audiences. While Hollywood has made and continues to make movies based on real life stories (A lot of times, even these real life stories are distorted or changed in some way from the real thing). I say this because there are historical documents from men in Biblical times (Including Pliny, who was a Roman), who considered the best wine to be that which did not inflame the senses.
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Why is this important? Thats what I'm wondering. Why does it matter? Christ was not a drunk. Christ made wine and drank wine. That does not mean that we must or must not. The alohol is not evil. Its just alcohol. It is man making poor choices and not using it as tool but instead letting it become master that makes it evil. Who are we to question God about the content of His wine? I will go back a read this tread again as I have surley missed something.
It's important because Jesus is a King! And the Bible says wine is not for kings. Jesus is our shining example. We are to conform to His image. Alcohol is a classified as a drug because it can effect the mind. If Jesus were to push drugs upon people, that would send the wrong message about his miracle at the wedding at Cana. It would then make it okay for us to push drugs or alcohol upon other people. Especially when somebody might be a struggling alcoholic. It is important because it is an issue of morality. Would God want to push or encourage a person into drinking? I don't think so. For if the wine at the wedding at Cana was alcoholic, then it would be a huge endorsement or stamp of approval that drinking is fun and we should celebrate and get close to being drunk (or to get drunk). But the Bible says drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Are you fluent in Elizabethan English? Why insist that persons have to be fluent in that dead language to read the Bible?
Why would you look up the meaning of a Greek word in an English dictionary??? The words of the NT are Greek, not English. Suppose you study the armor of Ephesians 6. Then based on your English & some English dictionary for the pieces of armor, you sagely conclude that all the body armor is only for the front or the, so don't turn your back on the enemy. You are ignorant that the Greek word for breastplate refers to a piece of armor that covers both the back & front.
Thus you need to repent of confusing people as to what is and what is not God's word.
What is your proof that Matthew was not a scribe?
Was apostle Paul uneducated?
Jason, where does the Bible say that if you "accept" the Lord you will be saved???
Where does the Bible say that if you repent of your sins you will be saved?
If you want to see what is in a house, you could look through a window. You can see a lot even if the glass is smudged.
Now if the window is opened you can see more clearly.
You are like a man who argues with someone that he should not open the window & look in, because the view is imperfect that way -- there are walls inside blocking the view, he can't see behind the furniture. So because that man's view is imperfect with the window open (Greek), everyone should not try to open the window, but just look through the distorting glass all the time (Elizabethan English).
Why would you look up the meaning of a Greek word in an English dictionary??? The words of the NT are Greek, not English. Suppose you study the armor of Ephesians 6. Then based on your English & some English dictionary for the pieces of armor, you sagely conclude that all the body armor is only for the front or the, so don't turn your back on the enemy. You are ignorant that the Greek word for breastplate refers to a piece of armor that covers both the back & front.
Thus you need to repent of confusing people as to what is and what is not God's word.
What is your proof that Matthew was not a scribe?
Was apostle Paul uneducated?
Jason, where does the Bible say that if you "accept" the Lord you will be saved???
Where does the Bible say that if you repent of your sins you will be saved?
If you want to see what is in a house, you could look through a window. You can see a lot even if the glass is smudged.
Now if the window is opened you can see more clearly.
You are like a man who argues with someone that he should not open the window & look in, because the view is imperfect that way -- there are walls inside blocking the view, he can't see behind the furniture. So because that man's view is imperfect with the window open (Greek), everyone should not try to open the window, but just look through the distorting glass all the time (Elizabethan English).
The Lord Jesus changed water to oinos. If you care about what the oinos was chemically, look up the word oinos and consider if there was such a thing a pasteurized grape juice which would not naturally ferment. Consider if the term oinos means both what we call grape juice and wine. Consider the drinking customs of the day, whether oinos was generally served straight or watered down.
Two weeks ago I would have said 'drinking's fine, Jesus turned water to wine', but after reading some materials, I'm not so sure about alcohol or meat being respectable consumptions.
Eusebius, one of the transcribers of the Biblican Canon, wrote in his 'Demonstratio Evangelica', that 'the apostles lived with fasting and abstinence from wine and from meat'. St Clement wrote that Matthew only ate seeds, nuts and vegetables, 'without the flesh', and there's also strong evidence the first christians were vegetarian; the Essenes, the Nazarenes and the Ebionites.
Jesus said he came to do away with, among other things, sacrificing, and the first instances of meat eating were to do with sacrificial animals, a punishment in and of itself for Adam and Eve, having to kill another living thing just to sustain themselves with life, becoming harbingers of death on all fronts. Destroying a life just to continue their own.
There are also indications that many Jews of the time ate the passover like the Qumran, without lamb, against the practices of Herod's temple.
The Old Syriac gospels show Jesus explicitly going against meat, and the Gospel of the Holy Twelve has a story about Jesus coming across a man flogging a donkey and stopping that man from his cruelty, and in the Hebrew Bible, there is a verse about killing animals that says 'whoever slaughters an oxen is like one who kills a human; whoever sacrifices a lamb, does like breaking a dog's neck'.
'Be thou not among flesh eaters and wine drinkers'.
There are also several accounts of Jesus 'fish and bread' story that say the food was actually 'grapes and bread', or 'olives and bread'.
The more I look, the more evidence I find of this.
Eusebius, one of the transcribers of the Biblican Canon, wrote in his 'Demonstratio Evangelica', that 'the apostles lived with fasting and abstinence from wine and from meat'. St Clement wrote that Matthew only ate seeds, nuts and vegetables, 'without the flesh', and there's also strong evidence the first christians were vegetarian; the Essenes, the Nazarenes and the Ebionites.
Jesus said he came to do away with, among other things, sacrificing, and the first instances of meat eating were to do with sacrificial animals, a punishment in and of itself for Adam and Eve, having to kill another living thing just to sustain themselves with life, becoming harbingers of death on all fronts. Destroying a life just to continue their own.
There are also indications that many Jews of the time ate the passover like the Qumran, without lamb, against the practices of Herod's temple.
The Old Syriac gospels show Jesus explicitly going against meat, and the Gospel of the Holy Twelve has a story about Jesus coming across a man flogging a donkey and stopping that man from his cruelty, and in the Hebrew Bible, there is a verse about killing animals that says 'whoever slaughters an oxen is like one who kills a human; whoever sacrifices a lamb, does like breaking a dog's neck'.
'Be thou not among flesh eaters and wine drinkers'.
There are also several accounts of Jesus 'fish and bread' story that say the food was actually 'grapes and bread', or 'olives and bread'.
The more I look, the more evidence I find of this.
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THere is no biblcal proof Jesus ever made or drank fermented wine. Jesus' NT gospel says men are to be 'sober' - nepho, not to drink, abstain.
1 Pet 5:8 "Be sober (nepho), be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"
Our English word "nephalism" comes from that Greek word,
Merriam-Webster:
Full Definition of NEPHALISM
: total abstinence from alcoholic beverages
Origin of NEPHALISM
Middle Greek nēphalismos soberness, from Greek nēphalios sober (from nēphein to be sober, drink no wine) + -ismos -ism; akin to Armenian nautʽi sober
Nephalism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Also:
1 Pet 4:3 "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries;"
excess of wine - oinophlygia - means drunkeness, an excess where one drinks so much as to not be able to walk, be in a stupor, passes out.
revellings - kōmos - means a drinking party where moderate to large amounts are of alcoholic beverages are consumed not to the point of excess passing out.
Banquetings - potos - potos simply means "to drink" no set amount attached to it. The verb form of potos is found in Matt 10:42 "And whosoever shall give to drink (potizo) unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water..." Here potos is associated with an amount as small as a cup, a social drinker, drinking that gives occasion to excess.
So Peter gives three varying degrees of drinking/drunkeness and in the context condemns all three.
Albert Barnes says of "excess of wine, revelings and banquetings":
Banquetings - The word here used (\~potov\~) occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It means properly drinking; an act of drinking; then a drinking bout; drinking together. The thing forbidden by it is an assembling together for the purpose of drinking. There is nothing in this word referring to eating, or to banqueting, as the term is now commonly employed. The idea in the passage is, that it is improper for Christians to meet together for the purpose of drinking--as wine, toasts, etc. The prohibition would apply to all those assemblages where this is understood to be the main object. It would forbid, therefore, an attendance on all those celebrations in which drinking toasts is understood to be an essential part of the festivities, and all those where hilarity and joyfulness are sought to be produced by the intoxicating bowl. Such are not proper places for Christians.
Revellings, Rendered rioting in Romans 13:13. See Barnes "Romans 13:13". The Greek word (\~kwmov\~) occurs only here, and in Romans 13:13, and Galatians 5:21. It means feasting, revel; "a carousing or merry-making after supper, the guests often sallying into the streets, and going through the city with torches, music, and songs in honour of Bacchus," etc.--Robinson, Lex. The word would apply to all such noisy and boisterous processions now--scenes wholly inappropriate to the Christian.
Excess of wine. The word here used (\~oinoflugia\~) occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It properly means overflowing of wine, (\~oinov\~), wine, and \~fluw\~, to overflow; then wine-drinking; drunkenness. That this was a common vice need not be proved. Multitudes of those who became Christians had been drunkards, for intemperance abounded in all the heathen world. Comp.1 Corinthians 6:9-11. It should not be inferred here from the English translation, "excess of wine," that wine is improper only when used to excess, or that the moderate use of wine is proper.
1 Pet 5:8 "Be sober (nepho), be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"
Our English word "nephalism" comes from that Greek word,
Merriam-Webster:
Full Definition of NEPHALISM
: total abstinence from alcoholic beverages
Origin of NEPHALISM
Middle Greek nēphalismos soberness, from Greek nēphalios sober (from nēphein to be sober, drink no wine) + -ismos -ism; akin to Armenian nautʽi sober
Nephalism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Also:
1 Pet 4:3 "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries;"
excess of wine - oinophlygia - means drunkeness, an excess where one drinks so much as to not be able to walk, be in a stupor, passes out.
revellings - kōmos - means a drinking party where moderate to large amounts are of alcoholic beverages are consumed not to the point of excess passing out.
Banquetings - potos - potos simply means "to drink" no set amount attached to it. The verb form of potos is found in Matt 10:42 "And whosoever shall give to drink (potizo) unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water..." Here potos is associated with an amount as small as a cup, a social drinker, drinking that gives occasion to excess.
So Peter gives three varying degrees of drinking/drunkeness and in the context condemns all three.
Albert Barnes says of "excess of wine, revelings and banquetings":
Banquetings - The word here used (\~potov\~) occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It means properly drinking; an act of drinking; then a drinking bout; drinking together. The thing forbidden by it is an assembling together for the purpose of drinking. There is nothing in this word referring to eating, or to banqueting, as the term is now commonly employed. The idea in the passage is, that it is improper for Christians to meet together for the purpose of drinking--as wine, toasts, etc. The prohibition would apply to all those assemblages where this is understood to be the main object. It would forbid, therefore, an attendance on all those celebrations in which drinking toasts is understood to be an essential part of the festivities, and all those where hilarity and joyfulness are sought to be produced by the intoxicating bowl. Such are not proper places for Christians.
Revellings, Rendered rioting in Romans 13:13. See Barnes "Romans 13:13". The Greek word (\~kwmov\~) occurs only here, and in Romans 13:13, and Galatians 5:21. It means feasting, revel; "a carousing or merry-making after supper, the guests often sallying into the streets, and going through the city with torches, music, and songs in honour of Bacchus," etc.--Robinson, Lex. The word would apply to all such noisy and boisterous processions now--scenes wholly inappropriate to the Christian.
Excess of wine. The word here used (\~oinoflugia\~) occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It properly means overflowing of wine, (\~oinov\~), wine, and \~fluw\~, to overflow; then wine-drinking; drunkenness. That this was a common vice need not be proved. Multitudes of those who became Christians had been drunkards, for intemperance abounded in all the heathen world. Comp.1 Corinthians 6:9-11. It should not be inferred here from the English translation, "excess of wine," that wine is improper only when used to excess, or that the moderate use of wine is proper.
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This is turning into an off topic discussion (Which was not my intention). I started a thread here to redirect this conversation.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ion-study-greek-english-both.html#post1648843
Please give me time to reply to your post.
Thank you and may God bless you.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ion-study-greek-english-both.html#post1648843
Please give me time to reply to your post.
Thank you and may God bless you.
Please do not drink and seek out a medical professional so that they can prescribe you the proper medication. If this is not possible for you, I would then pray to the Lord for strength. Alcohol should be a last resort to resolve medicall issues. For it is an addictive drug that can be very dangerous if it is abused.
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Look at Paul´s?
1Ti 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
1Ti 5:23 μηκετιG3371 ADV-N υδροποτειG5202 V-PAM-2S αλλαG235 CONJ οινωG3631 N-DSM ολιγωG3641 A-DSM χρωG5530 V-PNM-2S διαG1223 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM στομαχονG4751 N-ASM καιG2532 CONJ ταςG3588 T-APF πυκναςG4437 A-APF σουG4771 P-2GS ασθενειαςG769 N-APF
1Ti 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
1Ti 5:23 μηκετιG3371 ADV-N υδροποτειG5202 V-PAM-2S αλλαG235 CONJ οινωG3631 N-DSM ολιγωG3641 A-DSM χρωG5530 V-PNM-2S διαG1223 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM στομαχονG4751 N-ASM καιG2532 CONJ ταςG3588 T-APF πυκναςG4437 A-APF σουG4771 P-2GS ασθενειαςG769 N-APF
Context and truth dictates other wise and you point is moot and rather hilarious because Jesus himself is the one that CONTRADICTED himself against John...so like I said, go ahead and go to seed on a few scriptures while rejecting obvious, plain and truthful scriptures by the Lord himself...Whatever........!