Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[Cycel]

yes there is

Hello Garyy, you are a man of few words. Welcome to the forum.

Tell us a bit more.

 

[Cycel]

Men were a lot smarter than give them credit. There are many things that they did that we don't understand how they did them. Pyramids, Viking Swords, Easter Island heads, blah, blah, blah.

Note I started out with “Even the linear line in the graph shows an upward trend.” I am acknowledging advancements were taking place.

However, “When I wrote the words you are responding to it occurred to me that for most of human history, from man ape to stone age man, there would have been no upward trend in knowledge.” What I mean here is that thousands of generations would have lived much as the next. So for example what advances took place between 2,000,000 and 20,000 BC? We can't know, but we can be certain technological advances were relatively widely spaced. Pyramids are very recent affairs by comparison, but even in Egyptian times grandsons would have lived much as their grandfathers. The pace of change in 2000 BC was glacially slow. When you speak of Viking swords you are referencing the Middle Ages. Yes, smiths were knowledgeable, but still one generation would have lived much as the one that preceded it.

There are theories and we can do some of it with modern technology, but we don't know how they did it. I watched a documentary that said that a pyramid (Giza, or something - don't quote me on the name) was lined up with some energy field or something and that they may have been using it to make electricity (It was not a biblical doc.). Apparently they knew a lot.

Pyramids generated electricity in energy fields? Don’t be taken-in Timeline. You are being deceived by film makers who want to entertain while making money. This is all nonsense and pseudo-science. It is certainly not history.

 

[Brother_Don]

Hi Cycel, do atheist do days like christmas and easter? if so what are they celebrating? Just asking.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

I can answer that. I like the Christmas time of year. How I celebrate it though has nothing to do with the birth Jesus. It's all about getting Socks, Aftershave and ties as well as a couple off days of work, lousy movies on TV and watching my son play with his presents.

As for Easter, that doesn't really hold any significance for me, I'll get my son a few chocolate eggs and what not but the temporary death and resurrection of Jesus is never celebrated or even considered.

 

[Cycel]

Hi Cycel, do atheist do days like christmas and easter? if so what are they celebrating? Just asking.

Hi Brother_Don, all the atheists I know, myself included, do celebrate Christmas. For us it is simply a secular holiday filled with feasting, family get-togethers and friends. Oh, and gift giving. Myself, I play carols throughout the period as well.

Easter was important when my children were small, what with the Easter Bunny, Easter eggs, and so on. I no longer celebrate this particular holiday as I see it as for young children, and mine are grown. Oh, we are having a family dinner at my sister's this year. Half the family are atheists, but we still have our Christmas and Easter dinners.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Inspiration is the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit, who through the different personalities and literary styles of the chosen human authors invested the very words of the original books of Holy Scripture, alone and in their entirety, as the very Word of God.

As Peter stated:

"For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses... when He [Jesus] received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, 'This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased' and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Your explanation for the survival of the Bible fails to acknowledge the sweeping number of people that were raised apart from the Christian worldview by parents who were pagans, atheists, etc... who through diverse means and methods connected with the God of the Bible continuing its propagation. A great many people throughout history were raised to believe another worldview other than Christianity and exchanged the one they were raised from birth with for the Christian worldview.

How many people do you know who began to believe in Santa Claus in adulthood? Or who found belief in the Tooth Fairy consoling in old age as they lay dying? I believed in Santa Claus until I was about four but I did not start following Christ until my college years. I have met many educated and intelligent Christians raised in godless homes who found God later in life and discovering that their experiences with God and His Word were not any kind of regression, perversion or degeneration of reality. A good recent example is provided by Anthony Flew (born 1923), the noted atheist philosopher who started to believe in God in his eighties.

Why would I not quote Francis Collins with respect to the human genome, simply because he is a Christian, when he knows as much about the human genome as anyone on the planet? Or exclude Alvin Plantinga on a point of analytical philosophy, simply because he is a Christian, when he is one of the most foremost living philosophers especially with respect to analytical philosophy? I'm sure that if I only quote atheists on the God of the Bible that would fit your comfort level... lol. But your assertion is false as I have quoted a great many sources on this forum from backgrounds who possess divergent worldviews. But it's not necessary for me to even do so as your argument is fallacious (e.g. ad hominem fallacy, genetic fallacy, etc...) not to mention that many of the brightest minds on the planet are Christians. I don't need to exclude legitimate sources, rather you need to stop fallaciously asserting that I do and focus on the argument.

Now, you're making an assertion that most people do not get healed. Agreed and there are many reasons for that other than your false assertion that the God of the Bible does not exist. Nevertheless, some do experience genuine physical healing (either partially or fully). I did. And even we, of course, can be healed of one condition and later on in life develop another which we would have anyways or die in an accident. Life goes on and life's risks too. I might get run over by a car tomorrow (especially if I play on a freeway) despite once experiencing supernatural healing. I might develop another medical problem that doesn't get healed years from now. Life goes on with all of its inherent risks. But, I have inner assurances that God loves me and will act on my behalf in my time of greatest need even if that is to sustain me or assist me in transitioning to the correct spiritual dimension(s) upon the death of my mortal body. For I have already experienced His touch and it felt like liquid love that supernaturally healed my heart.

But, if you're looking for supernatural manifestations of healing from other sources, you might want to peruse Nicky Cruz's account of his parent's (both who were demonically possessed witch doctors) occultism and how the devil would sometimes heal a physical problem to deceive a person further and keep them from the living God.

Though the great majority of occultists are charlatans, some are not. Johanna Michaelson details her genuine experiences as an assistant to a psychic healer in her book 'The Beautiful Side of Evil'. In a recent interview she emphasized, "There is a beautiful side of evil-deceptive, subtle, adorned with all manner of spiritual refinements, but no less from the pit of hell than that which is blatantly satanic." Healing occurs in the world of psychic phenomena, but it is not healing that comes
from God. Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Qy1j2LBmU&feature=youtu.be&t=41s

Well, I'm off. It's a family day today. Peace.

Sorry, God didn't write the post any more than he wrote the bible. I have been scouring the internet to try and find any impartial evidence of faith healing working in any greater number than cases of spontaneous remission in atheists or misdiagnosis of the original condition. It seems for the most part that people medically analysed after healing were not medically diagnosed before. The effects of hypochondria and placebo are however, well documented. In my country there have been tales of miracles which have not stood up to science. Some with terrible effects.

I believe the bible has survived not because of it's message but because of the passion of people who pass that message. Children indoctrinated from a young age when they are at their most vulnerable to influence.

So far, every person you have called against to quote has been theologian or evangelist. This unfortunately applies bias to all their statements.

 

[Timeline]

Note I started out with “Even the linear line in the graph shows an upward trend.” I am acknowledging advancements were taking place.

However, “When I wrote the words you are responding to it occurred to me that for most of human history, from man ape to stone age man, there would have been no upward trend in knowledge.” What I mean here is that thousands of generations would have lived much as the next. So for example what advances took place between 2,000,000 and 20,000 BC? We can't know, but we can be certain technological advances were relatively widely spaced. Pyramids are very recent affairs by comparison, but even in Egyptian times grandsons would have lived much as their grandfathers. The pace of change in 2000 BC was glacially slow. When you speak of Viking swords you are referencing the Middle Ages. Yes, smiths were knowledgeable, but still one generation would have lived much as the one that preceded it.


Pyramids generated electricity in energy fields? Don’t be taken-in Timeline. You are being deceived by film makers who want to entertain while making money. This is all nonsense and pseudo-science. It is certainly not history.

I don't really know what to think in regards to "creation week". Some get bent out of shape when I say that Gen 1:1-5 (In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [SUP]2 [/SUP]The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. [SUP]4 [/SUP]God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.) says that the earth was here before creation week. Now there is a verse later that says "in the day that I created the heavens and the earth", but we can also reference Jerimiah 4:23-26
23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Now some will say that the reference to "formless and void" is referring to creation, but I don't think so. God is saying, in Jerimiah, that people (maybe mainly the Israelites, but that is not pressed here) had no morals and were not following Him. In verse 24 He goes straight to looking at the mountains, which we know were not created until day three. And in verse He mentions birds. He is observing the world at that time and yet He still uses the words, "formless and void". I also cannot dismiss that Cain went to the land of Nod and had relations with his wife. The bible does not say that his wife was a daughter of Adam. And did Cain name the land or were there people there already. Sometimes we assume too much, and maybe I am missing something. I don't know where dinosaurs fit in (ultimately I am not concerned about that). Some say that Leviathan, in Job (as well as other places in the bible) is talking about dinosaurs, but when I read it I do not come to that conclusion at all. Leviathan seems to be something more powerful than a dragon/animal. It is also, clearly, not an alligator or crocodile as my study guide indicates (at least not any crocodile that we have seen).

We often believe whatever someone says that the bible says and do not take the time to read it ourselves. From reading the bible, I have learned that we know a lot less than we claim to know. The bible in one word would be Love. Jesus is the answer to the whole bible and it doesn't really matter when the earth began as long as it doesn't disagree with what God tell us (I mean what He really tells us, not what we think the bible says by reading with preconceived ideas).



As for the Pyramid Documentary I didn't pay for it, although I can't dismiss them reaching or outright lying. They claimed that there were jars that they believed were used to make batteries. I do not want to press this issue as I don't think either one of us really care about this topic. We both agree, I think, that there has been an extreme increase in knowledge during just the last fifty to one hundred years. The problem with knowledge, it seems, is that as we begin to understand how things work we think that we have taken power, so to speak, away from God to the point now that He doesn't exist. Example: Because we know why a rainbow is formed it can't be a sign from God that He won't every flood the earth. This is not the case, in my opinion. Just because we know what forms a rainbow, does not mean that it was not done that way for our benefit.

 

[Biologist]

I laugh quite uncontrollably when people call atheists liars.....Calling me an atheist because i just dont want to listen to a god is like me calling you a liar and only a christian because you just want eternal bliss.

 

[Brother_Don]

family getting together can be nice Cycel, and intothevoid, glad you guys have family to share a meal, and conversation with. Hope you both accept the invitation into the Family of Jesus one day. Until then be nice and enjoy.

 

[Timeline]

I saw this and thought of you, Cycel.

 

[homwardbound]

You don't need to convince me, but we are both here on a religious forum. I came here to discus these issues with interested parties. Perhaps you are here for a different reason.


Yes, those claims are made in scripture, but I do read things differently.

Yes. I know this, and me as well, I tell you this things about the cross and the word did not make sense for all reasons and more that you have stated, and nothing really changed until, I believed he rose from the dead and is alive today forever more. When I saw in me that Christ is risen, that is when everything changed, my entire outlook and things that I did back then, also changed, I started thinking about things before doing them, in regard to my neighbor, which you are, whether or not I might harm someone as when driving, if I had a drink, do I want to play God, as if I am in control, and while in that by drinking, get in an accident and kill someone else?
Anyway, that is what changed over time, learning to consider my neighbor, and every person in this world is my neighbor, And that does not mean to become a doormat either, even if it appears that way to others.
I saw not to mistake kindness for weakness, and to me that is exactly what Christ did took on all my selfishness I had before in stealing, killing to live, standing up for me as I was justified to get angry. So I just today stand for Gold's love revealed through the cross of his Son, and forsook religion, seeing me as the creation, not the creator, and began responding to this love I see, I quit trying to get God to respond to me and just love as I see what Christ does in going to the death, and most important came back to life.
Now if one does not beleive he is risen, which is the hardest part to grasp, as even Peter did not beleive until after he saw the tomb empty, and he was marveled at this, belief, worked on him, in wondering and he grew in stature and wisdom over time, that is when everything for him changed and he started seeing outside of this world

Thank Cycel, and do appreciate you, we have had good conversations, and my prayer is you find exactly what you are looking for, I somehow, know you will

 

[Cycel]

Read this: What is Wrong with Pascal's Wager?

Note:

"The problem with Pascal's wager is that the assumption that belief in God is sufficient to get one into heaven is false. Demons believe and are condemned. An intellectual belief simply in God's existence is not sufficient for entry into heaven.

As you say, from a theological point of view this may well be true, but as an atheist I have issues with a belief that says even if you believe in God he will send you to Hell for not holding the correct beliefs about him.

It is also true, however – and this I think many Christians don't understand – is that choosing to believe in God is not as easy as just flipping a switch and deciding to believe. The impression I have of many Christians is that they think atheists simply wake up one morning and decide not to believe in God anymore, and if this is true then we can just as easily reverse the decision. This is why I am so often told, ‘The choice is yours.’ It’s just not that simple.

 

[Sirk]

As you say, from a theological point of view this may well be true, but as an atheist I have issues with a belief that says even if you believe in God he will send you to Hell for not holding the correct beliefs about him.

It is also true, however – and this I think many Christians don't understand – is that choosing to believe in God is not as easy as just flipping a switch and deciding to believe. The impression I have of many Christians is that they think atheists simply wake up one morning and decide not to believe in God anymore, and if this is true then we can just as easily reverse the decision. This is why I am so often told, ‘The choice is yours.’ It’s just not that simple.

you are right..it is not just that simple. But you are here and you are seeking truth. I hope that this important point will help you in your journey. Christ's disciples didn't "believe" in him either. When Jesus told Peter to follow him, Jesus was just one Rabbi of many in the Jewish land. The point is that the disciples didn't believe in him and you can follow Jesus without believing in him. One point to ponder.....when Jesus died on the cross where did the disciples go?......well Peter went fishing, not for recreation but because he was going back to his old profession. He had given up, thrown in the towel, had a good run but was quitting what he had given the last 3 years of his life too......what changed his mind I ask you?

 

[IntoTheVoid]

Well according to the story... Peter changed his mind because he was presented with actual evidence and sae things with his own eyes.

Which is a huge difference when asking an atheist to consider his options... Because that evidence isn't there outside of that book

 

[Sirk]

Well according to the story... Peter changed his mind because he was presented with actual evidence and sae things with his own eyes.

Which is a huge difference when asking an atheist to consider his options... Because that evidence isn't there outside of that book

i understand but there is no evidence to the contrary is what I am saying. Disproving a resurrected Jesus would have been easy, prevalent and sought with a vengeance. In essence there would be evidence from the same time period exposing the lie. Matthew, mark luke and John made themselves look like fools in their accounts of Jesus over and over again. Someone starting a religious movement based on a lie would never do this. Then when Jesus died, they gave up......they were DONE! I find it a startling piece of evidence that they suddenly changed their mind and subsequently died for a lie and that there was no one to dispute it.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

Again, those stories are not evidence.. They are a claim.

You need to realise the difference between the two.

 

[Timeline]

Again, those stories are not evidence.. They are a claim.

You need to realise the difference between the two.

Would you consider millions of Christians evidence? I believe you can see that Christianity started somewhere around the first century, from pretty much any historian that covers that time period.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

No I wouldn't.

Superstitions about black cats etc will always be around too but that doesn't make it true.

 

[Timeline]

No I wouldn't.

Superstitions about black cats etc will always be around too but that doesn't make it true.

I didn't think so.

 

[Timeline]

Beware the Black Cat