Proof of a Future Millennial Kingdom

[zone]

But adding to what it says is exactly what you're doing. It doesn't say that Satan will only be bound from deceiving people about the gospel, but simply that he will no longer be able to deceive the peoples. You are reading into the text and making assumptions about it. That is adding to the text.

no, i clearly said not adding to it.

if people want to go through the book of revelation chapter by chapter and see how it's constructed and what the other visions show, by the time they get to Rev 20 - a summary/overview from a heavenly VICTORY viewpoint, Rev 20 wouldn't need any explanation at all.

but since ppl have constructed this elaborate dispensational system ALL from that tiny little section in a Book of symbols, and every claim that's made but never proven or shown to be explained ANYWHERE else.....what else can we do but use shorthand?

pretrib rapture even got stuffed into this elaborate dispy system and ppl accept it!

if ppl say - OH...there's a 1,000 year kingdom after the Second Coming BECAUSE : x; y; z.....or there has to be BECAUSE we think it means no sin (but we contradict ourselves by having sinners, etc); or rejuvenation of the earth (but we contradict ourselves by having sinners and rebellion and fire and judgment at the end of it)......

.....what else can amillennialists do and say except to say - SHOW US!

and when ppl can't, they ALWAYS go back to - but the kingdom doesn't LOOK like we expected it to....ALL because of that single short chapter (which isn't really even a chapter - it's a distinctly separate section - VISION - at the end of a series of visions which say the same thing in different ways......Rev 20 is exactly where you would expect it to be, and says exactly what you would expect it so say

read in context, Rev 20 is a separate vision.

it is just like the other visions IN THAT it looks at Redemptive History from a vantage point.

that vantage point is very clearly, even for the Millennialist - CHRIST AND HIS SAINTS IN VICTORY....in spite of the "war".

HeRoseFromTheDead, that chapter is compact and filled with the revealing of the Kingdom being spiritual (very real nonetheless), it even has included in it HOW people are transferred from the dominion of satan into the heavenly kingdom - THE NEW BIRTH....the first resurrection (the ONLY place the first resurrection is ever mentioned).

i don't know how else to say it.

it's placed at the end of all the other stuff (which tell the same thing) because it summarizes God's Plan of Redemption while He is still redeeming - THEN come the eternity passages.

 

[zone]

But adding to what it says is exactly what you're doing. It doesn't say that Satan will only be bound from deceiving people about the gospel, but simply that he will no longer be able to deceive the peoples. You are reading into the text and making assumptions about it. That is adding to the text.

lol....okay.
but saying satan is restrained from deceiving the nations - and adding - for the salvation of souls through the gospel....is a little easier to manage and either prove from the rest of scripture - or disprove, than this UBER-COMPLEX dispensational system that has to reverse-engineer EVERYTHING all the way back to Calvary and make the claim THAT:

the Jews rejected Jesus SO, God placed a GAP in there where the Messianic Era should have been FOR ISRAEL, and called out a mystery church......and when that's over, He'll then go back to a Messianic Era.

like.....are....you....serious?

Hebrews 3:15
The Dangers of Unbelief
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." 16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

TODAY....today is the day of salvation.
unless we have reincarnation - which is where this MUST go (believe it or not), TODAY is the day of salvation.

why, if there was a future 1,000 years, didn't the writer to the HEBREWS who of all ppl would have known, say one single thing about it? he didn't ANYWHERE.

he always said the opposite.
and you know he did...you know the book.

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end

what end? 1,000 years after Jesus Returns?
this would have been a good place for the writer to say:

you Hebrews know the end isn't the LAST DAY....you know you will be restored to earthly Jerusalem, which is our continuing city (but not really)????

come on.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

lol....okay.
but saying satan is restrained from deceiving the nations - and adding - for the salvation of souls through the gospel....is a little easier to manage and either prove from the rest of scripture - or disprove, than this UBER-COMPLEX dispensational system that has to reverse-engineer EVERYTHING all the way back to Calvary ....

Don't make the mistake thinking that dispensationalism and millennialism are the same thing. They are not. And this thread isn't about dispensationalism.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

no, i clearly said not adding to it.

You continually accuse others of adding to the text, yet you yourself add to the text.

 

[zone]

You continually accuse others of adding to the text, yet you yourself add to the text.

okay. let's take a look, and neither of us will add anything.
let's read it. then discuss it, without adding anything to IT.
no speculation at all.

that means we have to go somewhere else to find out what it is saying.

(breaks removed, as it would have been written, continuously, not even a separate chapter....following directly what came before, and ahead of what follows it)...i don't read greek, so i don't know about the ESV translation, but you get the idea.


1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. 4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. 7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


THAT'S IT. THE WHOLE CHAPTER.
everything hinges on this passage.


where can we go to see if this is a linear account of a literal 1,000 years after the Second Advent?

if it is, ONLY this tiny portion says so...so we narrowed it down even more:


4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. 7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


what happens if we go back to the last part of 'Chapter 19' (the text that this flows directly from)?:


17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave,e both small and great.” 19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presencef had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.


WAIT - there's the lake of fire! and the mark of the beast.

does Revelation say ANYONE who 'takes the mark of the beast' goes into eternity - via the future 1,000 years or any other way?

can we go back to another vision which tells the same story to find out?

Revelation 14:9
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

there's the lake of fire again. in an earlier vision.

so we have to find out if the mark of the beast comes out during the Millennium...OR BEFORE...right?


QUESTION for Millennialists:

WHEN does the mark of the beast threaten the salvation of souls - BEFORE the Second Advent....or AFTER?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

okay. let's take a look, and neither of us will add anything.
let's read it. then discuss it, without adding anything to IT.
no speculation at all.

I was referring only to the verse that states satan will be bound so that he cannot deceive the nations. I don't want to focus on anything other than that.

 

[zone]

Don't make the mistake thinking that dispensationalism and millennialism are the same thing. They are not. And this thread isn't about dispensationalism.

but it is. this is wiggling.

it's not going to work

a future 1,000 year period, highly distinct from everything before and after it, which follows the Second Coming....and ends in cataclysm is a dispensation, according to dispensationalism....and by default in "Millennialism".

the literal 1,000 years proposed, the Millennium is a period of time with distinct things happening in it - wherein God is doing things in a way, and for a purpose, that are DIFFERENT.

again, i'll ask (rhetorically i guess) - what is it FOR?

Millennialists have a multitude of answers (all speculative, right?).
examples would be:

- to restore man's dominion.
- to restore Israel's dominion
- to just have Jesus reigning (since He apparently isn't now)
- so the church can hover over old jerusalem while the jews get chased around and stuff

etc.

so, what is the (''non'')-dispensation, or sectioning off of redemptive history in the 1,000 years for?

in what way will it be different ultimately for the salvation of souls; the restoration of man; Israel.....in preparation for the New Heavens; Earth and Jerusalem than what is taking place right now?

we can't add to Rev 20 now....so we have to go elsewhere in scripture to find out.

where can we go?

 

[zone]

I was referring only to the verse that states satan will be bound so that he cannot deceive the nations. I don't want to focus on anything other than that.

okay. did you read that post?
no comment?

how can we find out for sure that satan isn't bound until after the 2nd coming?
speculation about war and sin and evil? you have that in the Millennium.

Jesus said the wheat and tares grow together until the lake of fire...right?

the point is not his being bound, the point is the thousand years.

when and what is IT?

 

[zone]

I was referring only to the verse that states satan will be bound so that he cannot deceive the nations. I don't want to focus on anything other than that.

Revelation 20
7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Revelation 19
19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Revelation 16
They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.


are these visions all describing the same thing?
if they are, and they are in the future 1,000 years......what's this:

Revelation 16
They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.


where does these words fit:

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

why didn't Jesus talk about the Millennium there? when He said the END....did He really mean THE BEGINNING of His rule (the thousand years)?

and what about Jude?

Jude
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

okay. did you read that post?
no comment?
how can we find out for sure that satan isn't bound until after the 2nd coming?
speculation about war and sin and evil? you have that in the Millennium.
Jesus said the wheat and tares grow together until the lake of fire...right?
the point is not his being bound, the point is the thousand years.
when and what is IT?

The text says that satan will be bound from deceiving the nations for 1000 years. That's all it says.

The amil position says that satan is already bound so this must be the millenium. I can look around with my eyes and see that's not the case; satan is very active deceiving people.

The amill position says that satan's only bound from deceiving people about the gospel. First, that's adding something to the text that it doesn't say; and second, I can look around and see that most of the world is deceived about the gospel.

So that being said, will you agree that the amill position is reading something into the text on this point?

 

[zone]

I was referring only to the verse that states satan will be bound so that he cannot deceive the nations. I don't want to focus on anything other than that.

wouldn't the Israelites have known what Jesus was talking about - simply from the words God spoke in times past OT) concerning their enemies (and His)? He uses exactly the same language. the PHYSICAL (type) comes first, then the spiritual...agree?

it seems clear throughout the NT that the elect remnant did know.
and the others did not know.
right?

Isaiah 42:1
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isaiah 49:9
to say to the captives, 'Come out,' and to those in darkness, 'Be free!' "They will feed beside the roads and find pasture on every barren hill.

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Matthew 11:5
The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.

Matthew 12:18
"Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

~

Isaiah 49:24
Can plunder be taken from warriors, or captives be rescued from the fierce?

Isaiah 49:25
But this is what the LORD says: "Yes, captives will be taken from warriors, and plunder retrieved from the fierce; I will contend with those who contend with you, and your children I will save.

Mark 3
1Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand. 2And they watched Jesus,a to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3And he said to the man with the withered hand, “Come here.” 4And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

Mark 3
A Great Crowd Follows Jesus
7Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea, and a great crowd followed, from Galilee and Judea 8and Jerusalem and Idumea and from beyond the Jordan and from around Tyre and Sidon. When the great crowd heard all that he was doing, they came to him. 9And he told his disciples to have a boat ready for him because of the crowd, lest they crush him, 10for he had healed many, so that all who had diseases pressed around him to touch him. 11And whenever the unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.” 12And he strictly ordered them not to make him known.

Matthew 12:29
"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Mark 3
25"If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26"If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished! 27"But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house.


are we reasonably able to say Mark 3:25-27 is about satan?
Jesus named satan specifically, called him the strong man, and said HE had bound him up and was already plundering his house!

did He mean the Pharisees were the strong man?
no....the thing they were witnessing was the release of a prisoner of satan, a possessed man...right?
only someone stronger than the strong man could do that.

these passages are really hard to refute.
if they are placed alongside the short passage in Rev 20 - even more so.

because if Jesus did not bind satan as He said He did, but will do it in the future for 1,000 years, HOW can He be plundering satan's house right now?

are there TWO bindings of satan in scripture?

 

[zone]

The text says that satan will be bound from deceiving the nations for 1000 years. That's all it says.

The amil position says that satan is already bound so this must be the millenium. I can look around with my eyes and see that's not the case; satan is very active deceiving people.

The amill position says that satan's only bound from deceiving people about the gospel. First, that's adding something to the text that it doesn't say; and second, I can look around and see that most of the world is deceived about the gospel.

So that being said, will you agree that the amill position is reading something into the text on this point?

no. we're not reading something into the text.
scripture is interpreting scripture.

explaining how we came to that conclusion is explaining how we came to that conclusion.

i agree. it only says what it says.
so can you, without reading anything into it, but using other scriptures....explain how you came to the conclusion it's a future 1,000 years?

so far amils have waaaaaaaaaay more scripture interpreting that passage than millennialists.
but still waiting.

i'll change my position if i can see it.

 

[zone]

The text says that satan will be bound from deceiving the nations for 1000 years. That's all it says.

The amil position says that satan is already bound so this must be the millenium. I can look around with my eyes and see that's not the case; satan is very active deceiving people.

The amill position says that satan's only bound from deceiving people about the gospel. First, that's adding something to the text that it doesn't say; and second, I can look around and see that most of the world is deceived about the gospel.

So that being said, will you agree that the amill position is reading something into the text on this point?

okay....how about Judgment and the eternal fire?
can we see a 1,000 year special period of time anywhere else?

using other passages:

Matthew 3
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

11“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”


this chapter right here makes it pretty clear what the MESSIANIC ERA (a figuratively named thousand years?) is for:

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God byd the Spirit.


~



remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

looks like the nations were without hope in the world.
following the prince of the power of the air. no choice.

separated from Christ
alienated from the commonwealth of Israel
strangers to the covenants of promise
having no hope
without God in the world.

(no, not all gentiles - as a people - it clearly says it, but dispensationalists will invariably say "gentiles always got saved"...then they change it up and build up the wall of distinction again for the 2000 year mystery gap)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The text says that satan will be bound from deceiving the nations for 1000 years. That's all it says.

The amil position says that satan is already bound so this must be the millenium. I can look around with my eyes and see that's not the case; satan is very active deceiving people.

The amill position says that satan's only bound from deceiving people about the gospel. First, that's adding something to the text that it doesn't say; and second, I can look around and see that most of the world is deceived about the gospel.

So that being said, will you agree that the amill position is reading something into the text on this point?

Thats the problem they have which they can not overcome.

Whether you believe the 1000 to be a literal 1000 years. Or an indeterminate amount of time (in their view over 2000 years now) You can not deny what we see.

Satan decieves believers (seeks like a rouring lion) He decieves the nations (communism, islam etc etc) and he is at a very active and seen war against the church. Thus he CAN NOT BE BOUND. the number of years does not matter, if the rest does not fit.. then the number of years does not even matter.

 

[zone]

Thats the problem they have which they can not overcome.

Whether you believe the 1000 to be a literal 1000 years. Or an indeterminate amount of time (in their view over 2000 years now) You can not deny what we see.

Satan decieves believers (seeks like a rouring lion) He decieves the nations (communism, islam etc etc) and he is at a very active and seen war against the church. Thus he CAN NOT BE BOUND. the number of years does not matter, if the rest does not fit.. then the number of years does not even matter.

i wonder how many captives have been set free and transferred to the eternal kingdom since Jesus tied up the strong man.
and i wonder how many more will be saved before the Last Day.

it's hard to know, since we don't "see" that....we only seem to "see" sin and death and deception still.

does this means Jesus failed? is satan stronger than Jesus?
God forbid.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i wonder how many captives have been set free and transferred to the eternal kingdom since Jesus tied up the strong man.

This has nothing to do with satan being bound. Many captives were set free in the OT. Come on Zone you know better than this.

and i wonder how many more will be saved before the Last Day.

As many as God know will be saved, He is patient, willing that none should parish. Yet again, this has nothing to do with satan being bound. People came to God in the OT

it's hard to know, since we don't "see" that....we only seem to "see" sin and death and deception still.

does this means Jesus failed? is satan stronger than Jesus?

Now your changing the question. the question is not how strong Jesus is, it is is satan bound and no longer able to decieve nations. I think we see in the world he is still very active in decieving nations.

Imagine a world with Jesus at rule. No longer in any nation is it a capitol offense to be a Christian. No longer does the church have to hide. But everyone knows Christ and his power.

this is what we are told will happen in those days. That is what it will look like with satan bound.

 

[zone]

This has nothing to do with satan being bound. Many captives were set free in the OT. Come on Zone you know better than this.

this chapter right here makes it pretty clear what the MESSIANIC ERA (a figuratively named thousand years?) is for:

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God byd the Spirit.

separated from Christ
alienated from the commonwealth of Israel
strangers to the covenants of promise
having no hope
without God in the world.

(no, not all gentiles - as a people - it clearly says it, but dispensationalists will invariably say "gentiles always got saved"...then they change it up and build up the wall of distinction again for the 2000 year mystery gap)

LOL EG.
we`re old hands at this now

As many as God know will be saved, He is patient, willing that none should parish. Yet again, this has nothing to do with satan being bound. People came to God in the OT

then why is satan bound during the Millennium.... what for.

you Gentiles in the flesh
were at that time
separated from Christ
alienated from the commonwealth of Israel
strangers to the covenants of promise
having no hope
without God in the world.

ethnos: a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)
Original Word: ἔθνος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ethnos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-nos)
Short Definition: a race, people, the Gentiles
Definition: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.

Now your changing the question. the question is not how strong Jesus is, it is is satan bound and no longer able to decieve nations. I think we see in the world he is still very active in decieving nations.

deceiving them from doing what.

Imagine a world with Jesus at rule. No longer in any nation is it a capitol offense to be a Christian. No longer does the church have to hide. But everyone knows Christ and his power.

this is what we are told will happen in those days. That is what it will look like with satan bound.

but.....people rebel against the Glorified Christ that caused prophets to pass out as dead men.

THIS JESUS:

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

John 12:41
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Revelation 4:2
At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Revelation 4:3
And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne.

no....i do not think so, bud.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL EG.
we`re old hands at this now

lol we are.

non of those passages speak of the kingdom spoken of where Christ rules and satan is bound. they teach we are saved by grace not the law.. Gentiles were saved on the OT. Abraham was a gentile himself. They are saved today. And more gentiles and jews will be saved during this reign of Christ than ever in the history of the world. So I am not sure what your talking about..

How many times do we have to say the whole world will know the savior. No one will have to teach anyone. It is not just Israel..

then why is satan bound during the Millennium.... what for.

you Gentiles in the flesh
were at that time
separated from Christ
alienated from the commonwealth of Israel
strangers to the covenants of promise
having no hope
without God in the world.

ethnos: a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)
Original Word: ἔθνος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ethnos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-nos)
Short Definition: a race, people, the Gentiles
Definition: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.



deceiving them from doing what.

lol.

Are nations decieved today? Why is a christian on death row in the middle east? Why in china is the church fought against? Who do you think rules these nations? People?? Read the OT. Who was the king of tyre?? Don't you even understand our (the churches) war is not against flesh and blood. but against principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this age, and who do you think their ruler is Zone?? He has ruled them for 1000's of years. Take him out and you destroy their power. Why do you think revelations tells us that the war stops until satan is released. then immediatly the war starts up again?

During this age zone, there will BE NO WAR. Spiritual or physical. That is what scripture says!

Decieve them from doing what? No more Islam. No more communism. No dictators

but.....people rebel against the Glorified Christ that caused prophets to pass out as dead men.

Thats when they see him in his glory.

John Saw Jesus as he was in revelation 1 and fell to his face.. Yet scripture tells us just as they saw Christ leave. so we will see Christ at his return. Nice try though

THIS JESUS:

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

John 12:41
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Revelation 4:2
At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Revelation 4:3
And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne.

no....i do not think so, bud.

lol. No you would be right.If Jesus came as that. No one would be able to walk in front of him. But no where does scripture say he will come like that. He will come as he left. in the clouds. And all the world will see him and worship him. No wars. No communism. He will rule with an rod of iron. The nations who sinned against him will come worship him where he is etc etc.

Read all prophesy sis. It is more than just some thousand year (or however long you want it to be) it is the world being restored to the way it was. with Christ himself ruling. Satan bound. and the world seeing Christ. the messiah. fulfill his promises to the prophets..

 

[zone]

more gentiles and jews will be saved during this reign of Christ than ever in the history of the world. So I am not sure what your talking about..

where are we told that?

How many times do we have to say the whole world will know the savior. No one will have to teach anyone. It is not just Israel.. [/B]

okay....so why do they rise up and a ton end up in the lake of fire?
and we're not talking about the Gospel here - you have Glorified Majestic Jesus appearing with everyone knowing Him and seeing Him (going up to earthly jerusalem every year at least).

is there a temple?

Are nations decieved today? Why is a christian on death row in the middle east? Why in china is the church fought against? Who do you think rules these nations? People?? Read the OT. Who was the king of tyre?? Don't you even understand our (the churches) war is not against flesh and blood. but against principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this age, and who do you think their ruler is Zone?? He has ruled them for 1000's of years. Take him out and you destroy their power. Why do you think revelations tells us that the war stops until satan is released. then immediatly the war starts up again?

this is the only reference we can use:

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them

so what does all that other stuff have to do with that passage?
it's not in there.

During this age zone, there will BE NO WAR. Spiritual or physical. That is what scripture says!

where does it say that?

Decieve them from doing what? No more Islam. No more communism. No dictators

no, it only says:

so that he could deceive the nations no longer.
it says nothing about no dictators or Islam, or no sin or war(s).

it says:

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them

Thats when they see him in his glory.

John Saw Jesus as he was in revelation 1 and fell to his face.. Yet scripture tells us just as they saw Christ leave. so we will see Christ at his return. Nice try though

soooo.....when He Returns, He won't be in His Glory?
where does it say that?

lol. No you would be right.If Jesus came as that. No one would be able to walk in front of him. But no where does scripture say he will come like that. He will come as he left. in the clouds. And all the world will see him and worship him. No wars. No communism. He will rule with an rod of iron. The nations who sinned against him will come worship him where he is etc etc.

???????

He leaves Glory again and humiliates Himself as a Man?
you lost me.

He is King when He gets here for Millennium isn't He?

hmmm....do all people know it's the Real Jesus?

Read all prophesy sis. It is more than just some thousand year (or however long you want it to be) it is the world being restored to the way it was.

but then He destroys it and there's a New everything?
if it is restored to the way it was, how can there be sin and death and satan (who appears at the end)

with Christ himself ruling. Satan bound. and the world seeing Christ. the messiah. fulfill his promises to the prophets..

okay......which promises to which prophets were not fulfilled that must be fufilled in the 1,000 years?



are these 2 chapters describing the same thing EG?
is Isaiah a Millennium chapter, but John is eternity?

Isaiah 60
The Future Glory of Israel
1 Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
2 For behold, darkness shall cover the earth,
and thick darkness the peoples;
but the LORD will arise upon you,
and his glory will be seen upon you.
3 And nations shall come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your rising.

4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see;
they all gather together, they come to you;
your sons shall come from afar,
and your daughters shall be carried on the hip.
5 Then you shall see and be radiant;
your heart shall thrill and exult,a
because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,
the wealth of the nations shall come to you.
6 A multitude of camels shall cover you,
the young camels of Midian and Ephah;
all those from Sheba shall come.
They shall bring gold and frankincense,
and shall bring good news, the praises of the LORD.
7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered to you;
the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you;
they shall come up with acceptance on my altar,
and I will beautify my beautiful house.

8 Who are these that fly like a cloud,
and like doves to their windows?
9 For the coastlands shall hope for me,
the ships of Tarshish first,
to bring your children from afar,
their silver and gold with them,
for the name of the LORD your God,
and for the Holy One of Israel,
because he has made you beautiful.

10 Foreigners shall build up your walls,
and their kings shall minister to you;
for in my wrath I struck you,
but in my favor I have had mercy on you.
11 Your gates shall be open continually;
day and night they shall not be shut,
that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
with their kings led in procession.
12 For the nation and kingdom
that will not serve you shall perish;
those nations shall be utterly laid waste.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
the cypress, the plane, and the pine,
to beautify the place of my sanctuary,
and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons of those who afflicted you
shall come bending low to you,
and all who despised you
shall bow down at your feet;
they shall call you the City of the LORD,
the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 Whereas you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one passing through,
I will make you majestic forever,
a joy from age to age.
16 You shall suck the milk of nations;
you shall nurse at the breast of kings;
and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior
and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold,
and instead of iron I will bring silver;
instead of wood, bronze,
instead of stones, iron.
I will make your overseers peace
and your taskmasters righteousness.
18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land,
devastation or destruction within your borders;
you shall call your walls Salvation,
and your gates Praise.

19 The sun shall be no more
your light by day,
nor for brightness shall the moon
give you light;b
but the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.c
20 Your sun shall no more go down,
nor your moon withdraw itself;
for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of mourning shall be ended.
21 Your people shall all be righteous;
they shall possess the land forever,
the branch of my planting, the work of my hands,
that I might be glorified.d
22 The least one shall become a clan,
and the smallest one a mighty nation;
I am the LORD;
in its time I will hasten it.


Revelation 21
22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[BradC]

what did Jesus come for?

TO SAVE..........full stop.

His signs were predicted in the OT, and He sent john's disciples to tell john HE WAS THE CHRIST (Savior):

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners....

Matthew 11:5
John's Inquiry
4Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. 6"And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me."

did you expect what the Pharisees expected?
a political and military leader who would smash Rome and slaughter unbelievers?

why rush the Day of Judgment?

don't you want people saved in the ONLY way God has ordained they be saved?:

1 Corinthians 1
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,b not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human beingc might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of himd you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

We have the power of God unto salvation through the gospel of the cross. You impute to me and others that we claim that Christ came to set up a kingdom, because you have read from dispensationalist that this is their conviction and belief. I have never made that claim and you dishonor yourself by accusing me of such. Christ came as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world and was rejected by his own who ended up crucifying him as the king of the Jews. According to the prophets he was going to be rejected and despised of men and according to Isaiah 53:2-12.

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

NO KINGDOM is mentioned by him, of him or in relationship to him at his first coming, but he was worshiped as king. His disciples did not teach that the kingdom had come but rather was at hand and were expecting it's restoration sometime in the future and were taught to pray, THY KINGDOM COME, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Do you think that the kingdom and will of God is being done on earth as it is in heaven? Show us the government that was upon his shoulders when he was with his disciples or after his ascension in the early church or over the past two years. You ignore all the things that are associated with Christ and his demonstration of the kingdom when he was here.

THIS IS WHAT YOU IGNORE! You have the church and body of Christ representing the kingdom as ambassadors (and it does), yet you disallow for that kingdom that comes not only in word but also in power by rejecting any of the gifts of the Spirit that have been given to the church that you believe represents the kingdom here on earth. Why is that? If the kingdom of God is reigning on the earth it must have the same kind of power that our Lord demonstrated while he was here as king. Did he not heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raised the dead, cast out devils and commission his disciples to go and do the same for the house of Israel in Matt 10:8? If the kingdom of God is reigning on the earth, wouldn't you expect these things to follow the kingdom? YOU ARE SILENT ON THIS!