Proof of a Future Millennial Kingdom

[zone]

2 Peter 3
7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[zone]

here's a version of amillennialism from Pulpit Commentary:

Revelation 20 Pulpit Commentary < click

 

[zone]

Amillennialism
and
The Millennial Kingdom of Revelation 20 (1)

http://eschatologystuff.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/microsoft-word-amil-_1_-for-jt.pdf < click

 

[BradC]

G. C.Berkouwer is one amillennialist who does not believe that Satan is bound in this present age. He
says:

The language Revelation uses here [20:2-3] is forceful and radical . . . Those who
interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to
locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to find evidence
for a radical elimination of Satan’s power in that ‘realized millennium’. . . . The
necessary relativizing of John’s description of Satan’s bondage (remember that
Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that,
although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not
exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is
pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical
proportions of the binding of Satan–that he will not be freed from imprisonment
for a thousand years.30

If the binding of Satan is the result of the finished work of Christ on the cross
then can this deception be done after the thousand years? The answer to this question must be
yes for Revelation 20:3 and 7-8 declare that after the thousand years are completed Satan goes
out to deceive the nations again. Then how can Christ die and bind Satan from deceiving the
nations with his finished work on the cross, but in Revelation 20:7-8 there is time when Satan
will not be bound and can deceive the nations? We have a conflict here. The same finished work
of Christ turns out to be the unfinished work in the future because Satan does in the future what
he cannot do now because of Christ's work on the cross.31

There are those who believe the binding of Satan is only a general binding where he
cannot thwart the spreading of the gospel to the nations. They believe the precise thrust of
Revelation 20:1-3 is to prevent Satan from inciting the eschatological "war to end all wars," by
deceiving the nations "to gather them together for the war" (20:8). Satan wants to rush God into
judgment to some how destroy his plan, but God has bound him and will not let him do it until
the appointed time.32


The problem with this view is what kept Satan from initiating the final battle before the
cross? If when he is unbound in the future he will incite this final war, what kept him from doing
it before the cross? If we say God prevented him from doing it then what is the difference
between God's prevention of the final war of all times before the cross and the so-called binding
during this age? In Revelation 20:3 it says that this binding prevents Satan from deceiving the
nations "any longer."33

Therefore, Satan must have deceived the nations before this time. Before
the cross we see world wars and after the cross we see world wars. If the binding deals with wars
then there is no difference here? We would agree that Satan is prevented by God to muster the
final war of all times until God so directs, but the deception which Satan does must happen
before the binding and after the binding according to Revelation 20:3 and 7-8. Yet, if this
involves war then the age we live in is no different from the age before the cross. Matter of fact,
in the 20th century we have had two world wars. We conclude that this understanding of the
binding of Satan does not do justice to the text or to history.

30 G. C. Berkouwer, Studies in Dogmatics: The Return of Christ (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305
31 S. Lewis Johnson, Jr., Believers Chapel Tapes of Dallas, Tx.: "Divine Purpose series," tape #16.
32 David Chilton, The Days of Vengeance (Fort Worth: Dominion Press, 1988)), pp.500-506; Beale, The
Book of Revelation, pp. 984-89.
33 As we have argued above the language in Revelation 20:1-2 indicates a binding which does not refer to
decrease in attempts or failure in attempts, but prevention from any attempt to deceive the nations while the purpose
clause Ë<" :¬ B8"<ZF® in Revelation 20:3 conveys the failure in Satan’s deception. See also Richard A. Ostella,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

where are we told that?

Well lets see.

1. If all nations come to worship Christ. then All nations must believe in him
2. If satan is bound and all nations allow worship of Christ (unlike any time in the last 2000 years) the church will be open and more people will be saved.
3. If Christ is ruling, there will not be 3000 denominations but one. Meaning only the truth will be tought. Not the lies of satan and the distorted false church.
4. judaism, Islam and all the other world religions will be proven false. So people will only have the one truth.
5. Neighbor will not have to teach neighbor. why? Everyone knows the truth.

okay....so why do they rise up and a ton end up in the lake of fire?
and we're not talking about the Gospel here - you have Glorified Majestic Jesus appearing with everyone knowing Him and seeing Him (going up to earthly jerusalem every year at least).

lol. why do people go to hell today? You think it is different? We have what the OT did not (indwelling HS) and still more people deny him. People saw him face to face fulfill prophesy, yet they still denied him.

As far as people going to see him. this is what scripture says. Who am I to argue?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

is there a temple?

would it matter? No temple ever saved anyone. yet was built to honor God. Scripture says there will be on ein the new heavens. So what is your problem with having one here on earth with Jesus the High priest living and serving from it?

this is the only reference we can use:

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them

so what does all that other stuff have to do with that passage?
it's not in there.

No this is not the only reference. but even it we think it is. what do we see?

after 1000 years of peace and no war against the church from ANY NATION. Satan is released. and one more time a major war against the church ensues. If anything, we must KNOW from this passage, that during this time of satans binding. there is no war from any nation against the church or God.

where does it say that?

do you read the OT? Your seriously joking right? Do we spiritualize every prophesy which says there will be peace. There will be no war. There will be no need to teach anyone about God because they all know him. That the messiah will rule the world with an iron rod. You keep proclaiming the power of Christ, but now you want me to believe that when he rules with an iron rod. there will still be wars? That does not say much about his power does it?




I am going to split this into two posts. I HATE long responses. people lose info. and stop reading them (I sometimes am this way myself)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no, it only says:

so that he could deceive the nations no longer.
it says nothing about no dictators or Islam, or no sin or war(s).

it says:

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them

lol.. how do you think satan decieves the nations? where do you think islam, and the other false churches came from? who do you think empoweres leaders to make it a capitol crime for anyone to worship the christian God?

I am not saying this to be rude Zonest. Ya know I love ys sis. But to believe this way one has to be so narrow minded and ignore all other things which we are told of the reign of Christ in the OT and the new. and how satan decieves the nations and has since he decieved eve.. where do you think all these ideas come from? man?? they are not smart enough to make up these things!!

soooo.....when He Returns, He won't be in His Glory?
where does it say that?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Not rocket science.

???????

He leaves Glory again and humiliates Himself as a Man?
you lost me.

He is King when He gets here for Millennium isn't He?

hmmm....do all people know it's the Real Jesus?

See above. he comes as he went. The jesus the disciples and 500 some people saw after his ressurection is the one they will see at his return.

Come on zone. this is getting crazy!

but then He destroys it and there's a New everything?
if it is restored to the way it was, how can there be sin and death and satan (who appears at the end)

rolls eyes. Your joking right?

okay......which promises to which prophets were not fulfilled that must be fufilled in the 1,000 years?

thats a new thread unto itself. And far to many to post here in the little time I have to respond. But you should know. You state your an avide OT reader. are you?

are these 2 chapters describing the same thing EG?
is Isaiah a Millennium chapter, but John is eternity?

Isaiah 60
The Future Glory of Israel
1 Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
2 For behold, darkness shall cover the earth,
and thick darkness the peoples;
but the LORD will arise upon you,
and his glory will be seen upon you.
3 And nations shall come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your rising.

4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see;
they all gather together, they come to you;
your sons shall come from afar,
and your daughters shall be carried on the hip.
5 Then you shall see and be radiant;
your heart shall thrill and exult,a
because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,
the wealth of the nations shall come to you.
6 A multitude of camels shall cover you,
the young camels of Midian and Ephah;
all those from Sheba shall come.
They shall bring gold and frankincense,
and shall bring good news, the praises of the LORD.
7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered to you;
the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you;
they shall come up with acceptance on my altar,
and I will beautify my beautiful house.

8 Who are these that fly like a cloud,
and like doves to their windows?
9 For the coastlands shall hope for me,
the ships of Tarshish first,
to bring your children from afar,
their silver and gold with them,
for the name of the LORD your God,
and for the Holy One of Israel,
because he has made you beautiful.

10 Foreigners shall build up your walls,
and their kings shall minister to you;
for in my wrath I struck you,
but in my favor I have had mercy on you.
11 Your gates shall be open continually;
day and night they shall not be shut,
that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
with their kings led in procession.
12 For the nation and kingdom
that will not serve you shall perish;
those nations shall be utterly laid waste.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
the cypress, the plane, and the pine,
to beautify the place of my sanctuary,
and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons of those who afflicted you
shall come bending low to you,
and all who despised you
shall bow down at your feet;
they shall call you the City of the LORD,
the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 Whereas you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one passing through,
I will make you majestic forever,
a joy from age to age.
16 You shall suck the milk of nations;
you shall nurse at the breast of kings;
and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior
and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold,
and instead of iron I will bring silver;
instead of wood, bronze,
instead of stones, iron.
I will make your overseers peace
and your taskmasters righteousness.
18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land,
devastation or destruction within your borders;
you shall call your walls Salvation,
and your gates Praise.

19 The sun shall be no more
your light by day,
nor for brightness shall the moon
give you light;b
but the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.c
20 Your sun shall no more go down,
nor your moon withdraw itself;
for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of mourning shall be ended.
21 Your people shall all be righteous;
they shall possess the land forever,
the branch of my planting, the work of my hands,
that I might be glorified.d
22 The least one shall become a clan,
and the smallest one a mighty nation;
I am the LORD;
in its time I will hasten it.


Revelation 21
22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

will respond to this a little later when I get time. But read it, and tell me if you think Is speaks of heaven.. Hint Hint, there are no seas in the new earth. thus no ships..

 

[zone]

G. C.Berkouwer is one amillennialist who does not believe that Satan is bound in this present age. He
says:

The language Revelation uses here [20:2-3] is forceful and radical . . . Those who
interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to
locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to find evidence
for a radical elimination of Satan’s power in that ‘realized millennium’. . . . The
necessary relativizing of John’s description of Satan’s bondage (remember that
Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that,
although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not
exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is
pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical
proportions of the binding of Satan–that he will not be freed from imprisonment
for a thousand years.30

If the binding of Satan is the result of the finished work of Christ on the cross
then can this deception be done after the thousand years? The answer to this question must be
yes for Revelation 20:3 and 7-8 declare that after the thousand years are completed Satan goes
out to deceive the nations again. Then how can Christ die and bind Satan from deceiving the
nations with his finished work on the cross, but in Revelation 20:7-8 there is time when Satan
will not be bound and can deceive the nations? We have a conflict here. The same finished work
of Christ turns out to be the unfinished work in the future because Satan does in the future what
he cannot do now because of Christ's work on the cross.31

There are those who believe the binding of Satan is only a general binding where he
cannot thwart the spreading of the gospel to the nations. They believe the precise thrust of
Revelation 20:1-3 is to prevent Satan from inciting the eschatological "war to end all wars," by
deceiving the nations "to gather them together for the war" (20:8). Satan wants to rush God into
judgment to some how destroy his plan, but God has bound him and will not let him do it until
the appointed time.32


The problem with this view is what kept Satan from initiating the final battle before the
cross? If when he is unbound in the future he will incite this final war, what kept him from doing
it before the cross? If we say God prevented him from doing it then what is the difference
between God's prevention of the final war of all times before the cross and the so-called binding
during this age? In Revelation 20:3 it says that this binding prevents Satan from deceiving the
nations "any longer."33

Therefore, Satan must have deceived the nations before this time. Before
the cross we see world wars and after the cross we see world wars. If the binding deals with wars
then there is no difference here? We would agree that Satan is prevented by God to muster the
final war of all times until God so directs, but the deception which Satan does must happen
before the binding and after the binding according to Revelation 20:3 and 7-8. Yet, if this
involves war then the age we live in is no different from the age before the cross. Matter of fact,
in the 20th century we have had two world wars. We conclude that this understanding of the
binding of Satan does not do justice to the text or to history.

30 G. C. Berkouwer, Studies in Dogmatics: The Return of Christ (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305
31 S. Lewis Johnson, Jr., Believers Chapel Tapes of Dallas, Tx.: "Divine Purpose series," tape #16.
32 David Chilton, The Days of Vengeance (Fort Worth: Dominion Press, 1988)), pp.500-506; Beale, The
Book of Revelation, pp. 984-89.
33 As we have argued above the language in Revelation 20:1-2 indicates a binding which does not refer to
decrease in attempts or failure in attempts, but prevention from any attempt to deceive the nations while the purpose
clause Ë<" :¬ B8"<ZF® in Revelation 20:3 conveys the failure in Satan’s deception. See also Richard A. Ostella,

cool...at least you're finding out about amil- do whatever you like about satan being bound within the Two Advents.
it doesn't tell us anything more than what it says.

anyway, my thought about Berkouwer's concern would be: because God ordains satan be released and go out to deceive the nations - that's how.

apostasy (believers) and rebellion (unbelievers) is permitted by God until the last day (and satan is clearly used by God for His own purposes).

satan isn't said to escape from being bound on his own - he is released.....who allows that?
the same One who had him bound, i suppose

.......

Amos 8:11
11"Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord GOD, "When I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water, But rather for hearing the words of the LORD. 12"People will stagger from sea to sea And from the north even to the east; They will go to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, But they will not find it


churches: if you want to look at churches today that are marrying and ordaining homosexuals; preaching self-help and not Christ crucified; false doctrine; false prophets and false apostles abounding with lying signs and wonders.....why it that?....they left off the sufficiency of Scripture and keeping the words of Jesus?

that doesn't mean the gates of hell prevail over Christ's faithful church. He said that wouldn't happen.

nations/world: isn't it said everywhere there are saved and lost - right to the end?
Christ is said to have His winnowing fork in His hand...right now.

Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

i don't see any millennium, nor a need for it.
ppl are saved by Grace, through faith. right now or not at all.

 

[zone]

Well lets see.

1. If all nations come to worship Christ. then All nations must believe in him
2. If satan is bound and all nations allow worship of Christ (unlike any time in the last 2000 years) the church will be open and more people will be saved.
3. If Christ is ruling, there will not be 3000 denominations but one. Meaning only the truth will be tought. Not the lies of satan and the distorted false church.
4. judaism, Islam and all the other world religions will be proven false. So people will only have the one truth.
5. Neighbor will not have to teach neighbor. why? Everyone knows the truth.

1. which passages are you using to say all nations (every single person alive when He returns) will come to worship Christ?

- doesn't there have to be some kind of reincarnation for this to work?
- how does the resurrection work in this model?

2. which passages about who survives the 'mark of the beast' etc and the Second Advent are you using?

- you say the church will be open, and more ppl will be saved. how are they saved?
- who makes up the church during the Millennium - are some glorified and some are flesh?
- did Israel get saved before at or after the Second Advent?
- since you say their promises haven't been fulfilled, what promise will they receive? is the current church included in that (unfulfilled promises)?

3. Christ is ruling now.
- the 3,000 denominations either include people who are truly His and some who are not, or they include all who are His, or all who are not.
- when did multi-denominationalism begin?
- He already sent letters to the churches of john's day...they had difference between them. 2 were not admonished at all...the rest were. they were still said to be His churches. some get their lampstands removed.
- everything that's needed for Christian unity is written - is it The Lord's fault if the unity isn't there? what brings unity? sound doctrine - the faith delivered once for all.

4. so all world religions crumble, ppl know Christianity was right all along; they know Jesus is here in Person; they go up to actually lay eyes on Him in Jerusalem; only truth is taught; no temptation or sin or rebellion at all - but then there's sin and rebellion and a giant war against The King and the church anyway?

- what went wrong?
- so satan gets released by God's decree in the 1,000 years....to what end? to sift the wheat from the tares? Jesus is doing that right now.

5. everyone knows the truth....no one has to teach anyone - so what's this for:

"If satan is bound and all nations allow worship of Christ (unlike any time in the last 2000 years) the church will be open and more people will be saved."

- why doesn't everyone get saved?

we can speculate like this forever EG.
sooner or later you have to show me the passages. not Rev 20.

cont

 

[eternally-gratefull]

are these 2 chapters describing the same thing EG?
is Isaiah a Millennium chapter, but John is eternity?

Isaiah 60
The Future Glory of Israel
1 Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
2 For behold, darkness shall cover the earth,
and thick darkness the peoples;
but the LORD will arise upon you,
and his glory will be seen upon you.
3 And nations shall come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your rising.

darkness tribulation and return of Christ
Kings see him at his return.

4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see;
they all gather together, they come to you;
your sons shall come from afar,
and your daughters shall be carried on the hip.
5 Then you shall see and be radiant;
your heart shall thrill and exult,a
because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,
the wealth of the nations shall come to you.
6 A multitude of camels shall cover you,
the young camels of Midian and Ephah;
all those from Sheba shall come.
They shall bring gold and frankincense,
and shall bring good news, the praises of the LORD.

This happens in heaven?? I don't think so!

7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered to you;
the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you;
they shall come up with acceptance on my altar,
and I will beautify my beautiful house.

8 Who are these that fly like a cloud,
and like doves to their windows?
9 For the coastlands shall hope for me,
the ships of Tarshish first,
to bring your children from afar,
their silver and gold with them,
for the name of the LORD your God,
and for the Holy One of Israel,
because he has made you beautiful.

Come by ships from afar? Since when are we going to be delivered to Christ in ships? Not to mention. No sea in heaven, No sea equals no ships. Not to mention, we will not travel my vehicle in heaven. We will be as jesus.

10 Foreigners shall build up your walls,
and their kings shall minister to you;

I thought God was building the walls of the new jersualem and temple. What foriegner is building here? And why are they called foregners? Are they not saved? I did not know God was going to have those condemned to hell build Gods temple?? Oh wait. these are saved gentiles!! (hint hint)

for in my wrath I struck you,
but in my favor I have had mercy on you.

Who did God strike and punish, And who did he have mercy on? Context is israel. the nation. who are punished,

even today, for their sin against him.

11 Your gates shall be open continually;
day and night they shall not be shut,
that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
with their kings led in procession.
12 For the nation and kingdom
that will not serve you shall perish;
those nations shall be utterly laid waste.

And here we have the rule of the iron rod. God will utterly lay waste to any nation who does not serve him. Is this in heaven? Is it the last 2000 years? or is this in his kingdom?

Can't be heaven, everyone will worship God. there is no sin in heaven. can't be the last 2000 years. Only left then one interpretation.

13 The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
the cypress, the plane, and the pine,
to beautify the place of my sanctuary,
and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons of those who afflicted you
shall come bending low to you,
and all who despised you
shall bow down at your feet;
they shall call you the City of the LORD,
the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 Whereas you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one passing through,
I will make you majestic forever,
a joy from age to age.
16 You shall suck the milk of nations;
you shall nurse at the breast of kings;
and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior
and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

again in heaven? I think not. This is Israel. With king messiah on his throne. Finally fulfilling his covenant wiht his son David. Isreal repented. In her land. All nations finally doing what was supposed to happen in the beginning. But failed to do because israel sinned.

17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold,
and instead of iron I will bring silver;
instead of wood, bronze,
instead of stones, iron.
I will make your overseers peace
and your taskmasters righteousness.
18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land,
devastation or destruction within your borders;
you shall call your walls Salvation,
and your gates Praise.

what was that about peace?? No more violence. God destroys any nation who does not worship Christ? Thanks Zone, you just proved my point.

19 The sun shall be no more
your light by day,
nor for brightness shall the moon
give you light;b
but the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.c
20 Your sun shall no more go down,
nor your moon withdraw itself;
for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of mourning shall be ended.
21 Your people shall all be righteous;
they shall possess the land forever,
the branch of my planting, the work of my hands,
that I might be glorified.d
22 The least one shall become a clan,
and the smallest one a mighty nation;
I am the LORD;
in its time I will hasten it.

Again, In heaven? The rest of the passage as I have shown does not allow this.. Jesus will be the real light in the world. And Israel will sin no more..

Revelation 21
22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

This is heaven. Long after the events of the above prophesy.

There will be peace. No nation will deny Christ. God will build this himself. Not the foreigners.

Come on zone. again I know you are smarter than this!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. which passages are you using to say all nations (every single person alive when He returns) will come to worship Christ?

lol Zone, you have to be kidding. You just posted a passage which proved this in Isaiah 60.

Others.

Zeph 2: 11
The Lord will be awesome to them, For He will reduce to nothing all the gods of the earth; People shall worship Him, Each one from his place, Indeed all the shores of the nations.

Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

I am sure I can find more. But even 3 is enough

- doesn't there have to be some kind of reincarnation for this to work?

Why? there only has to be one ressurection. And he rose over 2000 years ago. No one else had to be resurrected. He who endures to the end (tribulation and the return of Christ) shall be saved.

You can only have two interpretations.

1. he is speaking of enduring to the end of our life to keep salvation or eternal life
2. he is speaking of those who go through tribulation and survive until the return of christ have their physical life saved. And enter the kingdom with him.

- how does the resurrection work in this model?

does not even come to play.

2. which passages about who survives the 'mark of the beast' etc and the Second Advent are you using?

have no idea what your talking about. Who said I used these passages? All I need is one of the three I posted to go along with revelation. And I gave you three. and as I said, there are more.

- you say the church will be open, and more ppl will be saved. how are they saved?

The same way Adam was saved, Noah was saved, Abraham was saved, King david was saved. John the baptist was saved, Paul was saved, and you and I are saved. Faith in Gods promise.

- who makes up the church during the Millennium - are some glorified and some are flesh?

the same people who make up the church today. Those born again by the righteousness of Christ.

- did Israel get saved before at or after the Second Advent?

When God said they will. when they repent!

- since you say their promises haven't been fulfilled, what promise will they receive? is the current church included in that (unfulfilled promises)?

lol. the current church has all of its promises already fulfilled. As well as the OT church.. As far as salvation is concerned.

The only promises as of yet fulfilled has to do with the nation of Israel at her repentance.

3. Christ is ruling now.

he is not a very good ruler then.

1. Where is his rod of Iron
2. Where are all the nations who refuse to worship him being as scripture says iutterly destroyed?
3. Why are Christians all over the world still being martyred for their faith?

You do not want me to think very much of Christ do you?

- the 3,000 denominations either include people who are truly His and some who are not, or they include all who are His, or all who are not.

How many gospels are there? What kind of argument is this?

- when did multi-denominationalism begin?

Started in the NT. as people who brought heresies into the church and were kicked out started their own church.

- He already sent letters to the churches of john's day...they had difference between them. 2 were not admonished at all...the rest were. they were still said to be His churches. some get their lampstands removed.
- everything that's needed for Christian unity is written - is it The Lord's fault if the unity isn't there? what brings unity? sound doctrine - the faith delivered once for all.

On gospel. Those churches were made churches from the one gospel. They did not as today have all these different churches teaching different ways to god (amoung these 7 churches) Who is the one who started these false churches by decieving people??

4. so all world religions crumble, ppl know Christianity was right all along; they know Jesus is here in Person; they go up to actually lay eyes on Him in Jerusalem; only truth is taught; no temptation or sin or rebellion at all - but then there's sin and rebellion and a giant war against The King and the church anyway?

1. Your assuming all are saved
2. Your assuming all do not have a desire to sin or want to war.
3. It is quite clear. Satan when he is released gives people the will to do what they already want to do.

No one claimed everyone would be saved, again, people saw Christ on earth, yet still with ALL the evidence, killed him..

the difference will be, in the kingdom age. Christ will rule and smash every rebellion.

5. everyone knows the truth....no one has to teach anyone - so what's this for:

Jeremiah 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Scripture is clear. Your argument is with God not me.

"If satan is bound and all nations allow worship of Christ (unlike any time in the last 2000 years) the church will be open and more people will be saved."

- why doesn't everyone get saved?

Why did Israel reject her messiah when he fulfilled all those things said about him?? While he walked the earth. Why did a third of the heavenly angels fall when they saw Christ as John saw Christ in Revelation 1?

You think that will be different?

we can speculate like this forever EG.

lol. No speculation. Justbelieving what God says. God said these things will happen. I believe him. period!

sooner or later you have to show me the passages. not Rev 20.

see above!

 

[Angela53510]

I'm reading "The Bible and the Future" by Anthony A. Hoekema, who comes up over and over in those links, Zone. I've tried to read this book before and failed. Finding it fascinating now, in light of all I have learned on here from the discussions.

My theology prof highly recommended this book, and it is "free of sensationalism", with "reverence for the Scriptures and measured scholarship."

Thanks Zone, for getting me back into eschatology, which has been so painful because of all the misconceptions and distortions by dispensationalists. There really is a purpose to reading good doctrine!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm reading "The Bible and the Future" by Anthony A. Hoekema, who comes up over and over in those links, Zone. I've tried to read this book before and failed. Finding it fascinating now, in light of all I have learned on here from the discussions.

My theology prof highly recommended this book, and it is "free of sensationalism", with "reverence for the Scriptures and measured scholarship."

Thanks Zone, for getting me back into eschatology, which has been so painful because of all the misconceptions and distortions by dispensationalists. There really is a purpose to reading good doctrine!

lol ok..

Misconceptions.

I love it when you people say this, when you prove every time we speak to you you do not even know what we believe. but only the few books you may have read on the subject. Which speak in terms and things we do not even believe. And ASSUME all of us must believe as they do.

 

[Angela53510]

lol ok..

Misconceptions.

I love it when you people say this, when you prove every time we speak to you you do not even know what we believe. but only the few books you may have read on the subject. Which speak in terms and things we do not even believe. And ASSUME all of us must believe as they do.

Actually, I WAS going on what you have been saying over the last while in posts. You do post a lot of scriptures on this topic, you know. I think you have some good doctrine in other areas.

Besides, reading a book or 100 isn't the issue. It is reading something that is not fiction, like the pre-trib pre-millennial Left Behind, or the Scofield made up Bible, or any other unscholarly sources. And even with scholarly books we are free to disagree on points of doctrine, if we have the Bible verses to counter them.

In actual fact, my post was not even directed to you - just wrote that, because I was excited to share what I was reading. I didn't mean it as a personal attack on you, eternally grateful! Sorry if it seemed that way because it came after your post. Although I did read your posts and don't agree with you! LOL

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, I WAS going on what you have been saying over the last while in posts. You do post a lot of scriptures on this topic, you know. I think you have some good doctrine in other areas.

Thanks.

Besides, reading a book or 100 isn't the issue. It is reading something that is not fiction, like the pre-trib pre-millennial Left Behind, or the Scofield made up Bible, or any other unscholarly sources. And even with scholarly books we are free to disagree on points of doctrine, if we have the Bible verses to counter them.

lol.. Left behind is fiction, last I read, they even state they do not base their fiction on the bible.

Scofield. I have three scofield bibles. And he does not believe what many say he does. So I would prefer to say he is misunderstood and misread. I do not agree with everything he says. I just use him as a referense on some things. Actually, Since I have my logos bible software. I hardly use a regular bible anymore. I have all kinds of resources (including languages) in one software program. Would recommend it to anyone who can afford it,

As for other books. I have read many I would say in all of them, I agree with some points, and disagree with points. I would not take them as gospel truth anyway, they are just a resource we can use, but we should always test what anyone says and not follow them blindly.

Me, I like studying the word more. And making my own conclusions, since this is what God is going to hold me accountable for.

In actual fact, my post was not even directed to you - just wrote that, because I was excited to share what I was reading. I didn't mean it as a personal attack on you, eternally grateful! Sorry if it seemed that way because it came after your post. Although I did read your posts and don't agree with you! LOL

lol. Its ok. I don;t know what to think anymore.

I just made my comments because I am amazed after three years of this discussion, I am still told I believe things I do not believe, and keep getting asked questions where they KNOW I do not believe that way, so why bother asking.

It gets kind of old.. as I hope and am sure you can understand!

and ps. I replied to you because you said dispensationalist.. they who have misconceptions and distort scripture.

being a dispensationalist. You must think this of me. So this is why I responded!

 

[Hoffco]

Any one who believes in "post" or "A" mill views, are still into myths and fairy tales. they don't believe the Bible... Zone, do you really think Jesus failed in His mission of His first coming??? No WAY

 

[Hoffco]

Some people are toooooo smart for their own good. They think the Bible is tooo dumb for the to believe. This is pitiful Love to all. Hoffco.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Any one who believes in "post" or "A" mill views, are still into myths and fairy tales. they don't believe the Bible... Zone, do you really think Jesus failed in His mission of His first coming??? No WAY

If you think zone thinks this, you do not know what she believes (rolls eyes)

why do people assume everything?? I do not even know what you think Zone thinks Christ failed. failed at what?

 

[BradC]

cool...at least you're finding out about amil- do whatever you like about satan being bound within the Two Advents.
it doesn't tell us anything more than what it says.

anyway, my thought about Berkouwer's concern would be: because God ordains satan be released and go out to deceive the nations - that's how.

apostasy (believers) and rebellion (unbelievers) is permitted by God until the last day (and satan is clearly used by God for His own purposes).

satan isn't said to escape from being bound on his own - he is released.....who allows that?
the same One who had him bound, i suppose

.......

Amos 8:11
11"Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord GOD, "When I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water, But rather for hearing the words of the LORD. 12"People will stagger from sea to sea And from the north even to the east; They will go to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, But they will not find it


churches: if you want to look at churches today that are marrying and ordaining homosexuals; preaching self-help and not Christ crucified; false doctrine; false prophets and false apostles abounding with lying signs and wonders.....why it that?....they left off the sufficiency of Scripture and keeping the words of Jesus?

that doesn't mean the gates of hell prevail over Christ's faithful church. He said that wouldn't happen.

nations/world: isn't it said everywhere there are saved and lost - right to the end?
Christ is said to have His winnowing fork in His hand...right now.

Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

i don't see any millennium, nor a need for it.
ppl are saved by Grace, through faith. right now or not at all.

If the binding of Satan is the result of the finished work of Christ on the cross
then can this deception be done after the thousand years? The answer to this question must be
yes for Revelation 20:3 and 7-8 declare that after the thousand years are completed Satan goes
out to deceive the nations again. Then how can Christ die and bind Satan from deceiving the
nations with his finished work on the cross, but in Revelation 20:7-8 there is time when Satan
will not be bound and can deceive the nations? We have a conflict here. The same finished work
of Christ turns out to be the unfinished work in the future because Satan does in the future what
he cannot do now because of Christ's work on the cross.

The above paragraph is a biggy for you but you failed to address it. Why is that?

 

[zone]

This happens in heaven?? I don't think so!

EG...there are camels and ancient stuff in that passage.
will we be going back 3500 years when Jesus comes?
or were the prophecies given in the language (pictures) and imagery (promises) the israelites would understand?

 

[zone]

11 Your gates shall be open continually;
day and night they shall not be shut,
that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
with their kings led in procession.
12 For the nation and kingdom
that will not serve you shall perish;
those nations shall be utterly laid waste.

I thought God was building the walls of the new jersualem and temple. What foriegner is building here? And why are they called foregners? Are they not saved? I did not know God was going to have those condemned to hell build Gods temple?? Oh wait. these are saved gentiles!! (hint hint)

Who did God strike and punish, And who did he have mercy on? Context is israel. the nation. who are punished,

And here we have the rule of the iron rod. God will utterly lay waste to any nation who does not serve him. Is this in heaven? Is it the last 2000 years? or is this in his kingdom?

Isaiah is prophecies of the return from captivities.....Jesus; salvation; the Church and eternity.