Proof of a Future Millennial Kingdom

eternally-gratefull · Sep 7, 2013

zone said:

lol. I will just leave it at this.

If satan is bound now. and Jesus is ruling the world.. Jesus is not a very good ruler.

People are starving because of evil dictators.

Wars and rumors of wars continue

Evils is present today the same, maybe even more than it was 2000 years ago.

Nothing has changed. The earth and people before Christ and after him are the same. NOTHING has changed.

read the prophets. The world at the time of the rule of Christ is not as it has been the last 2000 years. There will be peace not war. All people will worship the king, People will not have to teach others about Christ, because everyone knows (experientially) I can go on and on and on about how they say the world will be at this time.

That is not the world we see today.. or the last 2000 years. Nothing has changed.

zone · Sep 7, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

nothing has changed?

2000 years ago Emmanuel burst onto the scene, and salvation went out from Jerusalem to the ends of earth, and untold multitudes have already been saved - from bondage to sin; the penalty of sin; and the second death has no claim on them.

everything changed

k...ttyl bud.

Acts 17
5But the Jews, becoming jealous and taking along some wicked men from the market place, formed a mob and set the city in an uproar; and attacking the house of Jason, they were seeking to bring them out to the people. 6When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, "These men who have upset the world have come here also; 7and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.

John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

zone · Sep 7, 2013

The Amillennialist affirms that the people of Israel have not been cast off or replaced, but rather, that the Gentiles have now been included among the Jews in God's Covenantal promises. In other words, not replacement but expansion. God's redemptive plan, as first promised to Abraham, was that "all nations" would be blessed through him. Israel is, and always has been, saved the same as any other nation: by the promises to the seed, Christ. Amillennialists, do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after His second coming. Rather, they affirm that when Christ returns, the resurrection of both the righteous and wicked will take place simultaneously (see John 5), followed by judgment and and the eternal state where heaven and earth merge and Christ reigns forever.

Strong points of Amillennialism

* It is highly Christocentric: it makes Christ the center of all the biblical covenants (even the “Land” covenant or Siniatic)

* It notes the universal scope of the Abrahamic Covenant (as key) to interpreting the rest of the biblical covenants

* It sees salvation history oriented to a person (Christ), instead of a people (the nation of Israel)

* It emphasizes continuity between the “people of God” (Israel and the Church are one in Christ Eph. 2:11ff)

* It provides an ethic that is rooted in creation, and “re-creation” (continuity between God’s redemptive work now, carried over into the eternal state then)

* It emphasizes a trinitarian view of God as it elevates the “person”, Christ Jesus, the second person of the trinity as the point and mediator of all history

* It flows from a hermeneutic that takes seriously the literary character of the Scriptures (esp. the book of Revelation)
Bobby Grow

- Monergism.com

what parts of this does anyone disagree with?
why?

zone · Sep 7, 2013

BradC said:

the church and/or others of God's elect?
what others?

hmm....you mean the 2000 year jews-blinded-gap-mystery-gentile-church-called thing?
k.

no, there's no difference.
i don't use Scofield's notes.

The Kingdom is both in heaven and on earth - the church is the embassy (if we can call it that for argument's sake)
one day it will be eternal only, New heavens and new Earth; New Jerusalem.

A permanent diplomatic mission is typically known as an embassy, and the person in charge of the mission is known as an ambassador. The term "embassy" is often used to refer to the building or compound housing an ambassador's offices and staff. Technically, however, "embassy" refers to the diplomatic delegation itself, while the office building in which they work is known as a chancery.

Ambassadors can reside within or outside of the chancery; for example, American diplomatic missions maintain separate housing for their ambassadors apart from their embassies. Ambassadors residing outside of the chancery retain special protection from the host country's security forces and the ambassadorial residences enjoy the same rights as missions. Like embassies, such residences are considered inviolable and extraterritorial. The residences of high commissioners, who are similar to ambassadors, have the same rights.

Diplomatic mission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what do you think The Kingdom is underway on earth for?
saving souls for eternity - to the Praise of His Glory.
giving refugees (to continue the earthly analogy) asylum - from satan and hell.
baptized into Christ right here on earth, and entering His body right now.

the keys were for that purpose...knowing truly repentant professors; baptizing them; discipling them; or refusing them if they did not repent......establishing their councils in Jerusalem; through their inspired, foundational roles the Spirit worked through them establishing the new Covenant Church.

maybe you agree. i don't know. is there some big secret?

the jews knew what the keys were for.

....................

And I will give unto thee ... - A key is an instrument for opening a door.

He that is in possession of it has the power of access, and has a general care of a house. Hence, in the Bible, a key is used as a symbol of superintendence an emblem of power and authority. See the Isaiah 22:22 note; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 3:7 notes. The kingdom of heaven here means, doubtless, the church on earth. See the notes at Matthew 3:2. When the Saviour says, therefore, he will give to Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven, he means that he will make him the instrument of opening the door of faith to the world the first to preach the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. This was done, Acts 2:14-36; 10. The "power of the keys" was given, on this occasion, to Peter alone, solely for this reason; the power of "binding and loosing" on earth was given to the other apostles with him. See Matthew 18:18. The only pre-eminence, then, that Peter had was the honor of first opening the doors of the gospel to the world.

Whatsoever thou shalt bind ... - The phrase "to bind" and "to loose" was often used by the Jews. It meant to prohibit and to permit. To bind a thing was to forbid it; to loose it, to allow it to be done. Thus, they said about gathering wood on the Sabbath day, "The school of Shammei binds it" - i. e., forbids it; "the school of Hillel looses it" - i. e., allows it. When Jesus gave this power to the apostles, he meant that whatsoever they forbade in the church should have divine authority; whatever they permitted, or commanded, should also have divine authority - that is, should be bound or loosed in heaven, or meet the approbation of God. They were to be guided infallibly in the organization of the church:

1. by the teaching of Christ, and,

2. by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

This does not refer to persons, but to things - "whatsoever," not whosoever. It refers to rites and ceremonies in the church. Such of the Jewish customs as they should forbid were to be forbidden, and such as they thought proper to permit were to be allowed. Such rites as they should appoint in the church were to have the force of divine authority. Accordingly, they commanded the Gentile converts to "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood" Acts 15:20; and, in general, they organized the church, and directed what was to be observed and what was to be avoided. The rules laid down by them in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles, in connection with the teachings of the Saviour as recorded in the evangelists, constitute the only law binding on Christians in regard to the order of the church, and the rites and ceremonies to be observed in it. - Barne's

Isaiah 22:22
I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Matthew 18:18
"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Acts 15:28
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements...

Acts 16:4
As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.

Revelation 3:7
"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

John 10
7So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

BradC · Sep 7, 2013

zone said:

After Christ was rejected and after his death. burial and resurrection, Jesus went back to the glory he had with the Father. He is not here reigning in a kingdom theocracy, he is reigning in the heart of the believer that makes up the church that he is the head of. The church is not the kingdom of God and doesn't reign over other nations not matter where they have been locally planted. It is only representative and only here for a dispensation of time and then taken up. The apostles never reigned, especially Paul. Here is his testimony as an apostle.

1 Cor 4:9-13

9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. 2 Tim 2:12

Does this sound like the church apostles are part of the kingdom of God reigning upon the earth? Or, are the apostles those who have suffered for Christ sake to later reign with Christ in his kingdom?

Got a time frame for this in 1 Cor 15:23,24.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

what about Rev 5:10, time frame?

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

and Rev 11:15

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

then we come to Rev 20:6

Now we have to go all the way back to the resurrection and start there t make sense of it all. Have fun trying.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 7, 2013

zone said:

Read the OT. Jonah took the gospel to the gentiles (ninevah) and they recieved proudly.
God withheld the giving of the land to Abrahams children because the sin of the amorite (gentile) was not yet complete (they still followed God)

no sis. It did not change, Gentiles were saved every day. THE WHO PLAN OF GOD FOR ISREAL IS THAT THEY WOULD SHOW THE WORLD GODS LOVE AND THROUGH THIS BE SAVED) Israel failed Not God..

And why do you keep making this a salvic issue? It never was. I am talking about the world.

Before Christ Evil hated jews and anything to do with God. Who was their Leader? Satan/

After/ Same thing. Who is it that creeps around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour? How can one seek if he is bound in the bottomless pit..

Satan is not bound..

lol.. Jesus did overcome the world. He made salvation, which could only be hoped for by the world before. Copmplete.

This changed. They looked forward in hope. but no knowledge. We look back with hope AND knowledge (this is why paul gave up everything he head.)

Satan and evil being aroused by his temptations and false claims and his DECEPTIONS are still prevalent/ Maybe even more than ever.. Look at the world. (nothing changed)

He is NOT BOUND

HeRoseFromTheDead · Sep 7, 2013

zone said:

I agree with everything but the 'person' terminology of the trinity, and possibly the last statement (but since I'm not really sure what it's trying to say... not sure)

zone · Sep 7, 2013

BradC said:

no kidding.

BradC said:

He is a little heart-king, then?
what's that?

He's not a Real King?

what is the Church? when did God come up with the idea?

Does the Son have a Bride - The Mystery Church..............and the Father has a wife - Israel?

BradC said:

Jesus is reigning over the nations - from heaven. The OBJECT is salvation before judgment, Red.
not a Theocracy on this old earth.

i wonder what is His Sceptre/Rod is, as he sits on the Throne of (the shepherd-king) David in Heaven?

Ezekiel 20:37
Judgment and Restoration
36"As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD. 37"I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38and I will purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 37:26
One Nation with One King
25"They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27"My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people

Isaiah 59:21
The Covenant of the Redeemer
20"A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD. 21"As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."

Romans 11
26And in this way all Israel ["those who turn from transgression in Jacob"] will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

...................

"2. the rod of thy strength—the rod of correction (Isa 9:4; 10:15; Jer 48:12), by which Thy strength will be known. This is His Word of truth (Isa 2:3; 11:4), converting some and confounding others (compare 2Th 2:8).

out of Zion—or, the Church, in which God dwells by His Spirit, as once by a visible symbol in the tabernacle on Zion (compare Ps 2:6).

rule thou, &c.—over enemies now conquered.

in the midst—once set upon, as by ferocious beasts (Ps 22:16), now humbly, though reluctantly, confessed as Lord (Php 2:10, 11)." - JFBBC

"Verse 2. - The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion. "The rod of thy strength," or "thy strong scepter," is the same thing as "thy ruling power" (see Jeremiah 48:17; Ezekiel 19:11). The ruling power of Messiah was to go forth from Jerusalem (Acts 1:4-8; Acts 2:1-4)". - Pulpit

Hebrews 13:20
14For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. 15Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Benediction
20Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, 21equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in usa that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

BradC said:

a dispensation of time?

ya....dispensationalism's chopping up of redemptive history into "dispensations".
one for Israel (but they rejected Jesus) and God went into Plan B - the all-grace-gentile-mystery-church-dispensation not foreseen at all in the Bible.

"taken up" in the pretrib rapture, right?

and what goes on down here on earth at that time?
is the church suspended over earthly jerusalem in New Jerusalem?

and Jesus is down below in earthly Jerusalem with the jews in a Theocracy?

i thought Bible said and so shall we EVER be with the Lord.

please do tell....this is what the thread is for

use scripture please - for both the hell-on-earth while the church is raptured away before the tribulation.....and then the sequence of events going into the 1,000 years.

zone · Sep 7, 2013

Psalm 2
The Reign of the LORD’s Anointed
1 Why do the nations ragea
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”

7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Acts 4
The Believers Pray for Boldness
23When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,c said by the Holy Spirit,

“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’d—

27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servantse to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

zone · Sep 7, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

it's just kind of asking what's the 1,000 years for if all the Covenant Promises are fulfilled in Jesus?

anyways.......ttyl

vic1980 · Sep 7, 2013

What are the view of a Amill on verses 20:7-10 of revelation , surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, Who is He reffering to if i may ask zone ? this is fullfilled to amill or no, i don't follow amill so i will ask one thx

surrounded the camp of the saints = what camps ?

and the beloved city= what beloved city ?

Satan Freed, Doomed

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

God Bless

vic1980 · Sep 7, 2013

Satan Freed, Doomed

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day

Does 2 peter 3:8 mean 1000 human years is one day with the Lord ? satan should have been release by now ,i belive if that held up as 1000 years ,we have this scripture for 2000 year huh ? anyone thoughts thx God bless

BradC · Sep 8, 2013

zone said:

no kidding.

He is a little heart-king, then?
what's that?

He's not a Real King?

what is the Church? when did God come up with the idea?

Does the Son have a Bride - The Mystery Church..............and the Father has a wife - Israel?

Jesus is reigning over the nations - from heaven. The OBJECT is salvation before judgment, Red.
not a Theocracy on this old earth.

i wonder what is His Sceptre/Rod is, as he sits on the Throne of (the shepherd-king) David in Heaven?

Ezekiel 20:37
Judgment and Restoration
36"As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD. 37"I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38and I will purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 37:26
One Nation with One King
25"They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27"My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people

Isaiah 59:21
The Covenant of the Redeemer
20"A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD. 21"As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."

Romans 11
26And in this way all Israel ["those who turn from transgression in Jacob"] will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

...................

"2. the rod of thy strength—the rod of correction (Isa 9:4; 10:15; Jer 48:12), by which Thy strength will be known. This is His Word of truth (Isa 2:3; 11:4), converting some and confounding others (compare 2Th 2:8).

out of Zion—or, the Church, in which God dwells by His Spirit, as once by a visible symbol in the tabernacle on Zion (compare Ps 2:6).

rule thou, &c.—over enemies now conquered.

in the midst—once set upon, as by ferocious beasts (Ps 22:16), now humbly, though reluctantly, confessed as Lord (Php 2:10, 11)." - JFBBC

"Verse 2. - The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion. "The rod of thy strength," or "thy strong scepter," is the same thing as "thy ruling power" (see Jeremiah 48:17; Ezekiel 19:11). The ruling power of Messiah was to go forth from Jerusalem (Acts 1:4-8; Acts 2:1-4)". - Pulpit

Hebrews 13:20
14For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. 15Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Benediction
20Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, 21equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in usa that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

a dispensation of time?

ya....dispensationalism's chopping up of redemptive history into "dispensations".
one for Israel (but they rejected Jesus) and God went into Plan B - the all-grace-gentile-mystery-church-dispensation not foreseen at all in the Bible.

"taken up" in the pretrib rapture, right?

and what goes on down here on earth at that time?
is the church suspended over earthly jerusalem in New Jerusalem?

and Jesus is down below in earthly Jerusalem with the jews in a Theocracy?

i thought Bible said and so shall we EVER be with the Lord.

please do tell....this is what the thread is for

use scripture please - for both the hell-on-earth while the church is raptured away before the tribulation.....and then the sequence of events going into the 1,000 years.

Your seem to be disillusioned about the kingdom of God presently reigning on the earth. You have the church and body of Christ representing the kingdom as ambassadors (and it does), yet you disallow for that kingdom that comes not only in word but also in power by rejecting any of the gifts of the Spirit that have been given to the church that you believe represents the kingdom here on earth. Why is that? If the kingdom of God is reigning on the earth it must have the same kind of power that our Lord demonstrated while he was here as king. Did he not heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raised the dead, cast out devils and commission his disciples to go and do the same for the house of Israel in Matt 10:8? If the kingdom of God is reigning on the earth, wouldn't you expect these things to follow the kingdom? Other than preaching the gospel of Christ and making disciples in other nations, which we all have been commissioned to do as believers in the power of the Spirit, you seem to leave out these other things and live in some form of disbelief of the power of God that is demonstrative of the kingdom by the finger of God. When Christ comes back, then we will see the power of the kingdom of God demonstrated in fulness and reigning on the earth over all the other kingdoms until Rev 11:15 becomes a reality. Isn't God good and trustworthy giving us great hope for the future! For now we have to let the word of his grace reign in our lives by one Jesus Christ (Rom 5:17,21) through the power of the Spirit (who also raised Christ from the dead). Remember BLUE is my favorite color, so you have my permission to call me 'Blue'. Red is good but Blue is better.

resurrection33 · Sep 8, 2013

zone said:

Proof of a Future Millennial Kingdom:

please provide the scriptural evidence for it

.........................

Millennial kingdom
The Millennial kingdom refers to the thousand-year reign of Christ specifically mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6. This is usually seen as the same Messianic Kingdom anticipated by the Old Testament prophets. The major views regarding this millennial kingdom follow:

Dispensational premillennialists propose that Christ's return will precede the millennium but will be in two stages: First, to rapture his saints, leaving all others behind, and then after seven years of tribulation, to publicly institute his visible millennial reign. Dispensationalism also has a uniquely Jewish view of the millennium in which God will literally fulfill his OT promises to ethnic Israel, promises not given to Gentile believers.

Historic premillennialists, following some of the early church fathers, teach that the return of Christ will precede a literal thousand years of peace in which Christ would reign upon earth.

Postmillennialists generally see the millennial kingdom as a "golden age" ushered in by the church through the triumph of the gospel, not only in bringing individuals to salvation, but also in dominating culture. In this view, Christ's return is at the culmination (conclusion) of this millennial age, hence the name post-millennial.

Amillennialists believe that the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 is a figurative number indicating the whole period between Jesus' resurrection and his return (i.e. the current church age). In this view Christ now reigns and rules from heaven in and through the church bringing people into the kingdom of God through the preaching of the gospel.

Theopedia
http://www.theopedia.com/Millennial_kingdom
(it's a good enough overview to open this discussion - if you hold a position listed above and want to refine/redefine it go ahead. please cite sources)

.....

my position in the discussion will be Amillennialist.

I like to be prepared, in case Jesus appears in the flesh today, but I tend to believe we all pass on to the resurrection immediately after this life, and live there forever.

zone · Sep 8, 2013

vic1980 said:

who are the saints? christians.

what city do we belong to? more precisely what city are we actually said to be?

Revelation uses a particular literary style.

earthly Jerusalem was the physical Jerusalem (we already disagree about her being Mystery Babylon).

Heavenly Jerusalem is our mother.

the fire coming down from heaven destroying the enemies of Jesus and the saints on earth is just another way of saying what had already been said so many ways previously - it's the Second Advent and Judgment of this world.

the whole book speaks in this way. though we can't precisely call Revelation parables, it's similar.

Matthew 13:10
The Purpose of Jesus' Parables
The Purpose of the Parables
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

here Jesus is explaining the same thing - about the beloved city (saints/church) and their camp (wherever you are in the world)

(His parable spoken to the earthly city's inhabitants, interpreted for the disciples):

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

zone · Sep 8, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

he's bound from one thing only in Revelation.
it says nothing about evil dictator starving ppl or us being tempted or peace on earth.

it says he is bound SO THAT he might not deceive the nations any longer UNTIL the thousand years are ended. THEN he is released for a short time TO deceive the natiosn TO go up for the war against Christ and the saints.

that's all it says. if we stop adding to what it says, we would do well.

amillennialism says the Gospel of salvation is what is in mind here - the reason for his being bound. he can't prevail over the church. and he hasn't been able to EG....that Stone cut without hands in Dan. 2 DID become a great mountain....and still is.

the deceiving of the nations could be apostasy which leads to the breakdown and rebellion...but it doesn't even say that

read with all the other visions (which recapitulate and tell the same story, this fits very easily with them).

zone · Sep 8, 2013

BradC said:

what did Jesus come for?

TO SAVE..........full stop.

His signs were predicted in the OT, and He sent john's disciples to tell john HE WAS THE CHRIST (Savior):

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners....

Matthew 11:5
John's Inquiry
4Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. 6"And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me."

did you expect what the Pharisees expected?
a political and military leader who would smash Rome and slaughter unbelievers?

why rush the Day of Judgment?

don't you want people saved in the ONLY way God has ordained they be saved?:

1 Corinthians 1
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,b not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human beingc might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of himd you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

HeRoseFromTheDead · Sep 8, 2013

zone said:

But adding to what it says is exactly what you're doing. It doesn't say that Satan will only be bound from deceiving people about the gospel, but simply that he will no longer be able to deceive the peoples. You are reading into the text and making assumptions about it. That is adding to the text.

zone · Sep 8, 2013

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners....

freedom for the captives? hmm.....

Luke 11
14Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons,” 16while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven. 17But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls. 18And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe; 22but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil.

why is Jesus talking about spiritual kingdoms here?
did He mean what He said?

But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

what's the subject here? - SATAN and his kingdom.....and One stronger than satan.....Who did what?

20But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe; 22but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil.

is Jesus taking the spoils from satan's kingdom?
how? through a theocracy on earth? or the proclamation of the Gospel?

eternally-gratefull · Sep 8, 2013

zone said:

Who is adding to it?

Go to a muslim nation and profess to be a Christian. Go to China or Russia (although I think in Russia it is better) The war against the church is ongoing and is getting stronger. We in free nations do not understand this, because as of today we are fre. but even those freedoms are dwindling. Just as the prophesies say they will.

Scripture states in the kingdom age ALL nations will know and worship God. Satan is bound, He can not decieve them. All men are free to worship God. He himself is king. He rules with an iron fist as scripture says, If you think he is doing that today. and satan is bound. again, well I don;t know what to say.

lol.. Well we see things totally different, It is more than just salvation. Yes he can not defeat the church. But he can decieve nations to keep them from allowing the church to enter or gain a stronghold. He does it with a false church. A false religion, or controlling world leaders such as communism to outlaw the church.

the stone in daniel 2 is still alive, the iron and clay is not yet come to power. it has not been destroyed. for when it is destroyed. the one who destroys it will rull the whole earth.the church will be one. not splintered and the false churches will be utterly destroyed.

again, neighbor will not need to teach neighbor about Christ. everyone will know who and what he is..

edit, sorry missed this.

I have read them all. And they do not line up with ammill.

When satan is released. he decieved and the war against the church is renewed.. And utterly defeated.

The war is prevelent today. We are told in the kingdom it will be non existant. This is what it will look like in the kingdom. No communism. No muslim. No wars..

Proof of a Future Millennial Kingdom

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