Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[GaryA]

So, if one has never changed their mind about what a portion of scripture means... they are most likely suffering from pride, possessiveness, laziness or schizophrenia.

Is there any 'portion' of scripture about which you have never changed your mind?

~ Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt
~ concerning the love of God or salvation
~ Jesus changed the water into wine
~ Saul persecuted Christians
~ Jesus wept

- anything at all?

Are you suffering from pride, possessiveness, laziness or schizophrenia?

Don't paint with such a broad brush...

 

[Romans34]

'Zackly. Because someone "prayed about it", they think that whatever they "receive" is from God. The idea that God expects us to use the brains He gave us escapes some. Unfortunately it's a low view of God.

True. I presume that He gave me legs for walking, hands for working, eyes for seeing, ears for hearing, and a brain for thinking. I further presume that He did the same for my fellow humans. Shockingly crazy, I know.

If we are defining the "entire known universe" as the entire expanse of the stars, moon, planets and the like, then yes, I think the plain reading of Gen 1:14 and what we see of God's creation, yes, they are (or are within), the expanse/firmament.

Ok. Now maybe we can use those brains that God gave us.

Next step. We will go with the reading that the "entire known universe" (all except His throne room, so to speak) are within the expanse. Now, that means that the water on the face of the earth is the water that was below the firmament (v.7, 9). Also, above the earth are all of the luminaries. That only leaves the water that was above the firmament. Next question. Remember -- ONE STEP AT THE TIME.

Do you believe that God lifted enough water off of the earth (leaving an approximate 25,000 miles diameter ball) that would stretch around an expanse billions of light years across? That is the question to answer, but if He did, what would be the purpose? Why did he need to separate the waters from the waters and create an expanse that large? Why didn't He simply place the luminaries above the earth and be done with it? Remember, He DID create the earth BEFORE all of the luminaries. It really doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to think this thing through.

 

[Sculpt]

Scripture is overflowing of people making mistakes, changing and learning, such as the apostle Paul. Scripture tells us no one is perfect. So, if one has never changed their mind about what a portion of scripture means... they are most likely suffering from pride, possessiveness, laziness or schizophrenia.

Is there any 'portion' of scripture about which you have never changed your mind?

~ Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt
~ concerning the love of God or salvation
~ Jesus changed the water into wine
~ Saul persecuted Christians
~ Jesus wept

- anything at all?

Are you suffering from pride, possessiveness, laziness or schizophrenia?

Don't paint with such a broad brush...

This is a textbook STRAWMAN, argumentative, trolling post. Don't you have anything better to do?

 

[Lynx]

I made the "explain this" post to make a point about how everyone always seems to want to demand an answer from a flat-earther.

I do not appreciate others trying to drag me into such things while I am only trying to help someone else who actually wants to obtain a better understanding of the Flat Earth model.

This is not my thread - and, I am trying my best to not derail it.

Your question is a very good one - there is no doubt about it. And, I cannot say that I can give you a satisfactory answer. However, this in no way "undoes" anything where 'evidence' of the Flat Earth model is concerned.

If you or anyone is completely satisfied with the Ball Earth model upon the realization that you do not understand the answer to a single question about the Flat Earth model - well - do you understand everything there is to know about the Ball Earth model???

And - that is my point concerning Ball Earth folks "demanding" answers from Flat Earth folks.

I cannot answer every question about the Flat Earth model.

Can you answer every question about the Ball Earth model?

(Apparently not - I have a short list of 'conundrums' in another thread that Ball Earth folks cannot answer.)

I understand the frustration caused by argumentative people. I get it a lot from everyone from atheists to Ford/Chevy nuts to Linux fanboys. (Do not ever, ever, EVER tell a Linux fanboy that you use Linux, Android, Windows or whatever works. Just don't do it.)

But in your frustration with people in general, you have forgotten everything you know about me in particular.

I'm just saying that the ball-spinning-around-the-sun model seems to be working quite well. It predicted the eclipse both precisely and accurately. It worked in an area where we got no help at all from flat earth theory.

That's my whole point. It works, and people are going to go with what works.

If you want people to accept flat earth theory, you gonna need to step up your game and start giving people some answers that ball earth can't provide. You gotta prove yours works better than what everyone else is using.

 

[Dino246]

Ok. Now maybe we can use those brains that God gave us.

Next step. We will go with the reading that the "entire known universe" (all except His throne room, so to speak) are within the expanse. Now, that means that the water on the face of the earth is the water that was below the firmament (v.7, 9). Also, above the earth are all of the luminaries. That only leaves the water that was above the firmament. Next question. Remember -- ONE STEP AT THE TIME.

Do you believe that God lifted enough water off of the earth (leaving an approximate 25,000 miles diameter ball) that would stretch around an expanse billions of light years across? That is the question to answer, but if He did, what would be the purpose? Why did he need to separate the waters from the waters and create an expanse that large? Why didn't He simply place the luminaries above the earth and be done with it? Remember, He DID create the earth BEFORE all of the luminaries. It really doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to think this thing through.

Let's pretend for a moment that we fully understand God and all His ways.

Wait...

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9)

Next?

By the way, you overuse FORMATTING.

 

[GaryA]

Now, that means that the water on the face of the earth is the water that was below the firmament (v.7, 9). Also, above the earth are all of the luminaries. That only leaves the water that was above the firmament.

I believe that it is of major significance that the Bible uses the words 'above' and 'below'.

It does not say that there is water 'around' the firmament... (as if the firmament was enclosed by water)

 

[GaryA]

Do you believe that God lifted enough water off of the earth (leaving an approximate 25,000 miles diameter ball) that would stretch around an expanse billions of light years across?

Seems like a perfectly good question that Ball Earth [Christian] folks [who study the Bible] should be able to explain...

 

[GaryA]

This is a textbook STRAWMAN, argumentative, trolling post.

Guess again...

 

[GaryA]

If you want people to accept flat earth theory, you gonna need to step up your game and start giving people some answers that ball earth can't provide. You gotta prove yours works better than what everyone else is using.

I am still waiting to see someone prove the Ball Earth model without ever assuming that the Earth is a ball...

 

[Romans34]

I believe that it is of major significance that the Bible uses the words 'above' and 'below'.

It does not say that there is water 'around' the firmament... (as if the firmament was enclosed by water)

I understand that and i agree. Please notice among all my illustrations, there's no dome of water. In the world God made, there is an "up" and a "down".

In the man-made "universe", there doesn't seem to be an "up" and "down" (not really). But for those who insist on the "universe" thing, water encircling the "universe" would be the obvious conclusion, since there's no way to figure out where "above" is in their "universe". But the question still remains as to, wherever 'above' is in the "universe", what's the point to water (lots and lots of water, enough to cover the firmament) needing to be lifted off the earth billions of light years away (a very BIG expanse indeed)? God acts with purpose! He's an omniscient, all-wise, Almighty God!

 

[Sculpt]

Ok. Now maybe we can use those brains that God gave us.

Next step. We will go with the reading that the "entire known universe" (all except His throne room, so to speak) are within the expanse. Now, that means that the water on the face of the earth is the water that was below the firmament (v.7, 9). Also, above the earth are all of the luminaries. That only leaves the water that was above the firmament. Next question. Remember -- ONE STEP AT THE TIME.

Do you believe that God lifted enough water off of the earth (leaving an approximate 25,000 miles diameter ball) that would stretch around an expanse billions of light years across? That is the question to answer, but if He did, what would be the purpose? Why did he need to separate the waters from the waters and create an expanse that large? Why didn't He simply place the luminaries above the earth and be done with it? Remember, He DID create the earth BEFORE all of the luminaries. It really doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to think this thing through.

That's an excellent question! I prayed about it, read some commentary and meditated on it. The commentaries helped change my mind about what I think is the best answer. I'll just start with my answer to your question and then add the relevant info and explanation.

Answer: I no longer think the "above" waters that were separated from the "below" waters were put "around" (or somehow above) the known universe of stars.

Let me start with the Pulpit Commentary (PC) which has over 100 contributors, and Biblehub doesn't list the name of the person who gives this particular commentary. PC actually agrees with you that the Flood waters came from the "waters above the firmament/expanse"... which PC determined is the clouds. The expanse part referred to is the expanse from earth's surface to the bottom of the clouds.

PC concludes Genesis refers to the firmament/expanse (as we do) as the expanse that includes areas of the sky, moon, sun and stars. Some verses in Genesis use the word expanse when referring to a part of the expanse. Gen 1:6-7 is referring to the sky part of the expanse. Verses 6-10 covers the 'waters above' and 'waters below'; the waters of the oceans/lakes are separated from the waters of the clouds above.

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

May read the commentaries here: Commentaries Link
Of the nine commentaries, two don't address the issue (Matthew Henry's and Barnes), one suggests it's either the clouds or above the stars (Matthew Poole's), and six explain the clouds are the best reading (Ellicott's, Pulpit, Keil and Delitzsch, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown, Gill's Exposition and Geneva Study Bible).

Matthew Poole's Commentary reads:

"1. A collection or sea of waters placed by God above all the visible heavens, and there reserved for ends known to himself. Or rather,

2. The waters in the clouds; for the clouds are called waters, Psa 18:11 Psa 104:3, and are said to be in heaven, 2Sa 21:10 Mat 24:30, and the production thereof is mentioned as an eminent work of God's creation, Job 35:5 Job 36:29 Psa 147:8 Pro 8:28; which therefore it is not credible that Moses in his history of the creation would admit, which he doth, if they be not here meant; and these are rightly said to be above the firmament, i.e. the air, because they are above a considerable part of it. As God commanded and ordered it, so it was done and settled."

 

[Romans34]

That's an excellent question! I prayed about it, read some commentary and meditated on it. The commentaries helped change my mind about what I think is the best answer. I'll just start with my answer to your question and then add the relevant info and explanation.

Answer: I no longer think the "above" waters that were separated from the "below" waters were put "around" (or somehow above) the known universe of stars.

Let me start with the Pulpit Commentary (PC) which has over 100 contributors, and Biblehub doesn't list the name of the person who gives this particular commentary. PC actually agrees with you that the Flood waters came from the "waters above the firmament/expanse"... which PC determined is the clouds. The expanse part referred to is the expanse from earth's surface to the bottom of the clouds.

PC concludes Genesis refers to the firmament/expanse (as we do) as the expanse that includes areas of the sky, moon, sun and stars. Some verses in Genesis use the word expanse when referring to a part of the expanse. Gen 1:6-7 is referring to the sky part of the expanse. Verses 6-10 covers the 'waters above' and 'waters below'; the waters of the oceans/lakes are separated from the waters of the clouds above.

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

May read the commentaries here: Commentaries Link
Of the nine commentaries, two don't address the issue (Matthew Henry's and Barnes), one suggests it's either the clouds or above the stars (Matthew Poole's), and six explain the clouds are the best reading (Ellicott's, Pulpit, Keil and Delitzsch, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown, Gill's Exposition and Geneva Study Bible).

Matthew Poole's Commentary reads:

"1. A collection or sea of waters placed by God above all the visible heavens, and there reserved for ends known to himself. Or rather,

2. The waters in the clouds; for the clouds are called waters, Psa 18:11 Psa 104:3, and are said to be in heaven, 2Sa 21:10 Mat 24:30, and the production thereof is mentioned as an eminent work of God's creation, Job 35:5 Job 36:29 Psa 147:8 Pro 8:28; which therefore it is not credible that Moses in his history of the creation would admit, which he doth, if they be not here meant; and these are rightly said to be above the firmament, i.e. the air, because they are above a considerable part of it. As God commanded and ordered it, so it was done and settled."

So is the consensus that God originally placed clouds (the waters above? the expanse) above the sun, moon, and stars, since he placed the luminaries IN the expanse? Or was it that the water above the luminaries (in the expanse) somehow filtered down through the luminaries during or after the flood becoming clouds as we know them today?

 

[GaryA]

If you want people to accept flat earth theory, you gonna need to step up your game and start giving people some answers that ball earth can't provide. You gotta prove yours works better than what everyone else is using.

'ball earth' has not yet proven 'ball earth' without assuming that the earth is a ball and expecting everyone to just take its word for it...

What I am using is the Bible and 'rare sense' (You cannot really call it 'common sense' anymore.) - and, I believe that is sufficient.

 

[Prodigal]

I understand the frustration caused by argumentative people. I get it a lot from everyone from atheists to Ford/Chevy nuts to Linux fanboys. (Do not ever, ever, EVER tell a Linux fanboy that you use Linux, Android, Windows or whatever works. Just don't do it.)

But in your frustration with people in general, you have forgotten everything you know about me in particular.

I'm just saying that the ball-spinning-around-the-sun model seems to be working quite well. It predicted the eclipse both precisely and accurately. It worked in an area where we got no help at all from flat earth theory.

That's my whole point. It works, and people are going to go with what works.

If you want people to accept flat earth theory, you gonna need to step up your game and start giving people some answers that ball earth can't provide. You gotta prove yours works better than what everyone else is using.

Water is always level. The horizon is always (horizon)tal. Gravity is a theory. Buoyancy is proven physics. NASA has never provided an actual photo of the Earth from space, every photo on the internet is composite CGI and conflicts with every other photo they’ve released. I think the heliocentric crowd has some explaining to do. In your words, “they need to up their game”. Problem is, this is not a game. The physical sciences had great beginnings but have devolved into a religion, and a horribly dogmatic religion at that. A religion that questions God at every turn. A religion of Antichrist. The fruits of modern scientific theory are atheism, evolution, transhumanism, etc. Maybe the OP has some more explaining to do, but so does the scientific community.

 

[Lynx]

'ball earth' has not yet proven 'ball earth' without assuming that the earth is a ball and expecting everyone to just take its word for it...

What I am using is the Bible and 'rare sense' (You cannot really call it 'common sense' anymore.) - and, I believe that is sufficient.

Do y'all have a rule about not using musical instruments in your church?

That ain't entirely out-of-the-blue. Your flat earth arguments so far, what I've seen, have stretched scripture and twisted it like a rubber band. Last time I've seen anything like it was when people from a certain church were trying to argue with me about not using musical instruments.

They had the same mantra too. I'm just using scripture and common sense.

I'll tell you the same thing I told them. I don't mind a bit what you believe. You can believe it all you want. But when you try to say people who don't believe the way you believe are all kinds of evil and misguided and tricked by the devil and etc. then I do mind that. And when you keep trying to bring it up just so you can argue about it again, I mind that a lot. (Not you specifically Gary, but flat-earth people in general.)

 

[Dino246]

Water is always level.

No, it is not always level.

Gravity is a theory. Buoyancy is proven physics.

Um... buoyancy is nothing without gravity.

If you had actually studied Physics, you would know these things.

 

[Sculpt]

So is the consensus that God originally placed clouds (the waters above? the expanse) above the sun, moon, and stars, since he placed the luminaries IN the expanse? Or was it that the water above the luminaries (in the expanse) somehow filtered down through the luminaries during or after the flood becoming clouds as we know them today?

No. You're not understanding the post nor the commentaries.

In the KJV the word firmament means an expanse רְקִ֥יעַ rə-qî-a‘. It's not a capitalized proper noun like a city (Chicago), it's an expanse, an area. In the KJV, Genesis keeps referring to the sky area as a firmament/expanse or heaven. Sometimes when it reads the expanse/heaven, it's referring to the area of the moon, sun, stars, outer space. We need to use context to determine which it means.

Sometimes when it reads the expanse or heaven, it's only referring to the sky area. Example: Gen 1:20 " And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

Do you, Romans34, believe Gen 1:20 reads the fowl are flying in outer space with the stars?

In Gen 1:6-10, when it reads firmament (KJV) it's referring to the sky area. God separated the waters between the oceans/lakes and the waters in the cloud. The expanse here is the area between the surface of the earth and the bottom of the clouds.

In fact, many versions of the Bible don't use the word firmament, it uses vault and sky.

NIV
And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

AMP
6 And God said, “Let there be an [a]expanse [of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [below the expanse] from the waters [above the expanse].” 7 And God made the expanse [of sky] and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so [just as He commanded]. 8 God called the expanse [of sky] heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place [of standing, pooling together], and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that this was good (pleasing, useful) and He affirmed and sustained it.

 

[GaryA]

I understand that and i agree. Please notice among all my illustrations, there's no dome of water. In the world God made, there is an "up" and a "down".

In the man-made "universe", there doesn't seem to be an "up" and "down" (not really). But for those who insist on the "universe" thing, water encircling the "universe" would be the obvious conclusion, since there's no way to figure out where "above" is in their "universe". But the question still remains as to, wherever 'above' is in the "universe", what's the point to water (lots and lots of water, enough to cover the firmament) needing to be lifted off the earth billions of light years away (a very BIG expanse indeed)? God acts with purpose! He's an omniscient, all-wise, Almighty God!

The concepts of 'above' and 'up' are not determined by whether or not there is a dome - it is the 'flat [horizontal] plane' idea that governs - 'above' and 'up' exist in either case - and, point in only one [general] direction.

In the man-made "universe", 'above' and 'up' are relative - and go outward in all directions when the scale is large-enough...

 

[Romans34]

No. You're not understanding the post nor the commentaries.

In the KJV the word firmament means an expanse רְקִ֥יעַ rə-qî-a‘. It's not a capitalized proper noun like a city (Chicago), it's an expanse, an area. In the KJV, Genesis keeps referring to the sky area as a firmament/expanse or heaven. Sometimes when it reads the expanse/heaven, it's referring to the area of the moon, sun, stars, outer space. We need to use context to determine which it means.

Sometimes when it reads the expanse or heaven, it's only referring to the sky area. Example: Gen 1:20 " And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

Do you, Romans34, believe Gen 1:20 reads the fowl are flying in outer space with the stars?

In Gen 1:6-10, when it reads firmament (KJV) it's referring to the sky area. God separated the waters between the oceans/lakes and the waters in the cloud. The expanse here is the area between the surface of the earth and the bottom of the clouds.

In fact, many versions of the Bible don't use the word firmament, it uses vault and sky.

NIV
And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

AMP
6 And God said, “Let there be an [a]expanse [of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [below the expanse] from the waters [above the expanse].” 7 And God made the expanse [of sky] and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so [just as He commanded]. 8 God called the expanse [of sky] heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place [of standing, pooling together], and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that this was good (pleasing, useful) and He affirmed and sustained it.

When I read Genesis 1, I don't see multiple firmaments, just one.
6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (*)
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (*)

14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (*)
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (*)
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

No matter how many heavens it included, there was only ONE expanse, within which were the luminaries, and water above and below. [The waters below being that on the face of the earth.]

 

[Romans34]

I need to point out this very unique observation that I think most are overlooking. According to Genesis 1:6-10, the earth is NOT inside the firmament (expanse) along with the luminaries. The earth is distinctly BELOW the firmament, where the "below" the firmament waters were gathered together and called 'Seas'. If the earth is in "outer space", and "outer space" is in the expanse, that would put the earth IN the firmament of Heaven, and not below it. Read it again carefully and prayerfully.