Why have the Sign Gifts Ended
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@Guojing
I started reading last night from Ephesians onward. And the very next thing I find in Thessalonians, "despise not prophesyings", which suggests prophesying was going on afterwards the list in Ephesians which you referenced... However, I was reluctant to post it yet for some reason, and I wanted to do more reading, and I sat on it overnight.
The reason suddenly slammed me this morning. "Wait, do we actually know the chronological order in which the epistles were written - is their order in the Bible actually chronological?" So, if their order is not chronological, then I cannot establish proof for the issue in this way, but then also your argument consisting of perceived progression is equally voided.
So I believe we must first determine what is the exact chronological order in which chapters were written, when it comes to the Acts and the epistles, before either of us is able to draw arguments from their progression in the Bible, if we want to approach the subject in all fairness. I opened a thread and will see if anyone will chime in who knows if the chronological order is known or if scholars deduced it, if not I'll be wading until I find out.
I started reading last night from Ephesians onward. And the very next thing I find in Thessalonians, "despise not prophesyings", which suggests prophesying was going on afterwards the list in Ephesians which you referenced... However, I was reluctant to post it yet for some reason, and I wanted to do more reading, and I sat on it overnight.
The reason suddenly slammed me this morning. "Wait, do we actually know the chronological order in which the epistles were written - is their order in the Bible actually chronological?" So, if their order is not chronological, then I cannot establish proof for the issue in this way, but then also your argument consisting of perceived progression is equally voided.
So I believe we must first determine what is the exact chronological order in which chapters were written, when it comes to the Acts and the epistles, before either of us is able to draw arguments from their progression in the Bible, if we want to approach the subject in all fairness. I opened a thread and will see if anyone will chime in who knows if the chronological order is known or if scholars deduced it, if not I'll be wading until I find out.
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17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
49And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Now 1 Corinthians was written 20 years after Paul's conversion and he is teaching them about how they all have been given gifts by the Holy Spirit to benefit the body of Christ among which are what you call "sign gifts" but what the scriptures simply call spiritual gifts.
They had not ceased and the only mention of them every ceasing was when he mentions the return of Christ or our going to be with Him, "That which is perfect is come" not the writing of the book of Revelation but the day when we will see him face to face (1 Cor 13) and until then TRUE LOVE is shown by operating in the gifts of the Spirit in a motivation of Love.
Your denial of the Holy Spirit gifts disqualifies you from being able to teach since it is one of the gifts. No one really wants to listen to someone who does not depend on the Spiritual gift of teaching. Otherwise it is just vain babbling of the erroneous interpretations such as "the gifts have ceases" being a prime example.
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
49And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Now 1 Corinthians was written 20 years after Paul's conversion and he is teaching them about how they all have been given gifts by the Holy Spirit to benefit the body of Christ among which are what you call "sign gifts" but what the scriptures simply call spiritual gifts.
They had not ceased and the only mention of them every ceasing was when he mentions the return of Christ or our going to be with Him, "That which is perfect is come" not the writing of the book of Revelation but the day when we will see him face to face (1 Cor 13) and until then TRUE LOVE is shown by operating in the gifts of the Spirit in a motivation of Love.
Your denial of the Holy Spirit gifts disqualifies you from being able to teach since it is one of the gifts. No one really wants to listen to someone who does not depend on the Spiritual gift of teaching. Otherwise it is just vain babbling of the erroneous interpretations such as "the gifts have ceases" being a prime example.
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Please visit my thread on BDF. I see you know more about this subject (chronology of Bible texts), and my knowledge is relatively weak in this area.
I am trying to be fair to the OP and address their line of thinking, which they were kind enough to explain. We should be able to patiently convince and remove all reasonable doubts.
I think it's also crucial to get an explanation from cessationist believers that I asked previously, in which way do we see God face to face and know Him as we are known now, that wasn't available back then to apostle Paul? They must be able to answer this adequately in order to qualify their views, but I've never heard even an attempt of answering this, and I asked many times.
I am trying to be fair to the OP and address their line of thinking, which they were kind enough to explain. We should be able to patiently convince and remove all reasonable doubts.
I think it's also crucial to get an explanation from cessationist believers that I asked previously, in which way do we see God face to face and know Him as we are known now, that wasn't available back then to apostle Paul? They must be able to answer this adequately in order to qualify their views, but I've never heard even an attempt of answering this, and I asked many times.
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It won't matter how many scriptures are give to prove that the Spiritual gifts were a normative part of the early church and the plan of God for the church until Jesus comes again, you still won't accept it. You don't even need scripture to convince yourself of your views.
The reason it is so easy for people to believe that the gifts they read about in the New Testament have ceased is that you just don't believe that what goes on today is the same thing as what went on in the first century.
You also don't want to feel like you are missing anything so it is easier to say that what others are doing is fake. You don't want to ask for them or feel obligated to operate in any such gift so like many others you are "relieved" that the gifts have ceased because if they were still operating 1) you might feel like you were missing something, (and you don't want to feel that), or 2) you think it would be uncomfortable and embarrassing if you spoke in tongues, or that people would think you were a fanatic if you laid hands on them to be healed instantly. It has always been about faith. At the time of Christ it was about faith. During the 1st century church it was about faith, and today it is still a matter of faith. Saying that they have ceased excuses your lack of faith.
Most people who believe that tongues have ceased are GLAD. Instead of wishing they had been there in the first church they are relieved that they did not "have to speak in tongues" because the whole ideas sounds embarrassing to them. If you find that is your heart then go ahead and admit that your problem is lack of faith. You are using your opinion that the gifts have ceased as your excuse not to "desire spiritual gifts" when Paul specifically told you that you should.
14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
Repent.. and Believe.. Ask God for the gift of prophesy and see what happens.
The reason it is so easy for people to believe that the gifts they read about in the New Testament have ceased is that you just don't believe that what goes on today is the same thing as what went on in the first century.
You also don't want to feel like you are missing anything so it is easier to say that what others are doing is fake. You don't want to ask for them or feel obligated to operate in any such gift so like many others you are "relieved" that the gifts have ceased because if they were still operating 1) you might feel like you were missing something, (and you don't want to feel that), or 2) you think it would be uncomfortable and embarrassing if you spoke in tongues, or that people would think you were a fanatic if you laid hands on them to be healed instantly. It has always been about faith. At the time of Christ it was about faith. During the 1st century church it was about faith, and today it is still a matter of faith. Saying that they have ceased excuses your lack of faith.
Most people who believe that tongues have ceased are GLAD. Instead of wishing they had been there in the first church they are relieved that they did not "have to speak in tongues" because the whole ideas sounds embarrassing to them. If you find that is your heart then go ahead and admit that your problem is lack of faith. You are using your opinion that the gifts have ceased as your excuse not to "desire spiritual gifts" when Paul specifically told you that you should.
14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
Repent.. and Believe.. Ask God for the gift of prophesy and see what happens.
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