Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[Guojing]

To claim cessation as "straightforward" you would have to explain the leap that is supposed to happen for the gifts to cease. The Scripture states very precisely the moment when the gifts would cease,

1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, THEN that which is in part [from context, spiritual gifts] shall be done away.
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but THEN face to face: now I know in part; but THEN shall I know even as also I am known.

Compared to apostle Paul, do you know God as you are known, and also claim that Paul did NOT know Him in that way?
Compared to apostle Paul, do you see Christ face to face, and claim apostle Paul did NOT, and only saw Him through a glass darkly compared to you?
Compared to the times of apostle Paul, what perfect thing did come since, which was NOT there yet in his times?
You would have to fit all three.
In addition.
Or are you claiming that the apostles and the first believers were like cymbals so they had gifts, while nowadays quality of believers changed dramatically and they are not like cymbals, so they don't have gifts?

Yes, that was the point I was trying to address in my points 8 to 10.

In 1 Cor, all the 9 gifts were mentioned. That letter was written during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28, where signs and wonders were still given to Paul, as well as the Gentile churches, as a sign to Israel.

But by the time Paul wrote his prison epistles and pastoral letters after Acts 28, do you notice he no longer talk about tongues, in Ephesians 4 for example

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[Guojing]

No. I believe Luke started telling Theopolus of the things Jesus began to do......Act 1

Acts 2 the Holy Ghost fell and birthed the church and it hasn't stopped and won't stop until the Holy Ghost is called out of the world and when He goes im going with Him

So do you agree with my points 6 to 8, that Israel has rejected the Holy Spirit when they stoned Stephen, hence Israel lost her status as God's favored nation then?

 

[AlmondJoy]

So do you agree with my points 6 to 8, that Israel has rejected the Holy Spirit when they stoned Stephen, hence Israel lost her status as God's favored nation then?

No

 

[SoulWeaver]

Yes, that was the point I was trying to address in my points 8 to 10.

In 1 Cor, all the 9 gifts were mentioned. That letter was written during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28, where signs and wonders were still given to Paul, as well as the Gentile churches, as a sign to Israel.

But by the time Paul wrote his prison epistles and pastoral letters after Acts 28, do you notice he no longer talk about tongues, in Ephesians 4 for example

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I don't quite understand your point... The triple condition from 1 Cor 13 that's required to drop gifts, has not yet been fulfilled. Thus, the predetermined conditions have not been met to abrogate the given set of spiritual gifts. Gifts and callings/occupations are two different things, one doesn't abrogate the other. Why should he talk about gifts again, when it was already addressed very extensively?

 

[AlmondJoy]

No

Israel is still God's chosen people. We are adopted in

 

[Guojing]

No

I see, you have a different understanding of what Paul was trying to explain in Romans 9 to 11?

Would you care to share it?

 

[Guojing]

Israel is still God's chosen people. We are adopted in

Would you care to share it, say your understanding of what Romans 11:11 means to you?

 

[Guojing]

I don't quite understand your point... The triple condition from 1 Cor 13 that's required to drop gifts, has not yet been fulfilled. Thus, the predetermined conditions have not been met to abrogate the given set of spiritual gifts. Gifts and callings/occupations are two different things, one doesn't abrogate the other. Why should he talk about gifts again, when it was already addressed very extensively?

My point was that tongues, prophecies, word of knowledge etc, were seen in Gentile churches during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28.

By the time, Acts 28 has passed, they were not seen again in those churches.

But I think you are thinking of "perfect" as in the 2nd coming of Christ right? Alright then, I understand that is a very popular interpretation of 1 Cor.

 

[Guojing]

I don't quite understand your point... The triple condition from 1 Cor 13 that's required to drop gifts, has not yet been fulfilled. Thus, the predetermined conditions have not been met to abrogate the given set of spiritual gifts. Gifts and callings/occupations are two different things, one doesn't abrogate the other. Why should he talk about gifts again, when it was already addressed very extensively?

Do you notice a contrast in the scripture here?

1 Cor 12 list
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

versus Ephesians 4 list

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul repeated some spiritual gifts in Ephesians 4 but omitted some from 1 Cor 12. Do you think this could be deliberate?

 

[SoulWeaver]

My point was that tongues, prophecies, word of knowledge etc, were seen in Gentile churches during the transitional period between Acts 7 and Acts 28.

By the time, Acts 28 has passed, they were not seen again in those churches.

But I think you are thinking of "perfect" as in the 2nd coming of Christ right? Alright then, I understand that is a very popular interpretation of 1 Cor.

What is your interpretation of "perfect"? What perfection came that in those times they didn't have and we do? Again, how do we see Christ face to face, and know Him as we are known, that wasn't available to apostle Paul to see and know Him in this way?

 

[Guojing]

What is your interpretation of "perfect"? What perfection came that in those times they didn't have and we do? Again, how do we see Christ face to face, and know Him as we are known, that wasn't available to apostle Paul to see and know Him in this way?

My interpretation of the word perfect, will be the completed Scriptures.

But I do understand that interpreting perfect as the 2nd coming of Christ is also possible.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Do you notice a contrast in the scripture here?

1 Cor 12 list
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

versus Ephesians 4 list

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul repeated some spiritual gifts in Ephesians 4 but omitted some from 1 Cor 12. Do you think this could be deliberate?

I see. No, I don't believe the list should be viewed in a "legalese" way. Remember that Paul as an apostle also spoke in tongues and healed and performed miracles, so things from the list overlap, and not exclude one another. You would also have to prove that he stopped healing, speaking in tongues and performing miracles after writing Ephesians 4.

 

[SoulWeaver]

My interpretation of the word perfect, will be the completed Scriptures.

But I do understand that interpreting perfect as the 2nd coming of Christ is also possible.

Would you please grant me this kindness, to explain the other two conditions also from cessationist perspective?
I personally think it's not a strong argument to call deciding what's canonical writing "the perfect has come", but at least it's some explanation. But I never get the explanation on the rest. What about the rest?

How do we "see Christ face to face", and "know Him as we are known" now, that wasn't yet available to apostle Paul to see and know God in that way?

 

[Guojing]

I see. No, I don't believe the list should be viewed in a "legalese" way. Remember that Paul as an apostle also spoke in tongues and healed and performed miracles, so things from the list overlap, and not exclude one another. You would also have to prove that he stopped healing, speaking in tongues and performing miracles after writing Ephesians 4.

Oh the last part is straightforward

1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Paul could send miracle handkerchiefs to heal during the Acts transitional period. By the time he wrote his pastoral letter to Timothy, he suggested natural methods.

Others include what I stated to Absolutely

Philippians 2
25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.

27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

Paul could only pray for him fervently, and in this case, God had mercy on him.

 

[Guojing]

Would you please grant me this kindness, to explain the other two conditions also from cessationist perspective?
I personally think it's not a strong argument to call deciding what's canonical writing "the perfect has come", but at least it's some explanation. But I never get the explanation on the rest. What about the rest?

The problem I have with interpreting perfect as 2nd coming is simply, why do we still need hope then, when our mind is perfected, and we can see Christ face to face and be in perfect communion with him?

To a certain extent, that also means why is faith still necessary?

1 Corinthians 13:13

 

[SoulWeaver]

Oh the last part is straightforward

1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Paul could send miracle handkerchiefs to heal during the Acts transitional period. By the time he wrote his pastoral letter to Timothy, he suggested natural methods.

Others include what I stated to Absolutely

Philippians 2
25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.

27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

Paul could only pray for him fervently, and in this case, God had mercy on him.

Your automatic premise is that he could not; "he is not using the gift, thus he must've lost the gift".

I am not much, but from my personal experience, it's not how the gifts work. You cannot just open your mouth and speak in tongues, contrary to the belief of many. You can't just lift your hand and heal whom you want, when you want. The Spirit moves you and tells you the words to speak and when to speak them, what to do and when to do it. There are periods when the gifts don't show. Gifts cannot be forced and come only by God's will and are subject to His timing. Those who try to act outside of it may receive counterfeit manifestations.

But please allow me to get back to you on this later. I want to look and see if there's evidence affirming the contrary to what you're proposing.

 

[Guojing]

Your automatic premise is that he could not; "he is not using the gift, thus he must've lost the gift".

I am not much, but from my personal experience, it's not how the gifts work. You cannot just open your mouth and speak in tongues, contrary to the belief of many. You can't just lift your hand and heal whom you want, when you want. The Spirit moves you and tells you the words to speak and when to speak them, what to do and when to do it. There are periods when the gifts don't show. Gifts cannot be forced and come only by God's will and are subject to His timing. Those who try to act outside of it may receive counterfeit manifestations.

But please allow me to get back to you on this later. I want to look and see if there's evidence affirming the contrary to what you're proposing.

Those would be healing miracles, which yes, I will certainly agree that it comes by God's will and timing. Paul himself taught us to pray like that in Philippians 4:6-7.

When I am talking about healing as a sign, I was referring to the resurrection of Lazarus, the healing of the lame begger in Acts 3 and such, where such healing were guaranteed to happen because they are meant to testify to the nation Israel.

 

[SoulWeaver]

The problem I have with interpreting perfect as 2nd coming is simply, why do we still need hope then, when our mind is perfected, and we can see Christ face to face and be in perfect communion with him?

To a certain extent, that also means why is faith still necessary?
1 Corinthians 13:13

I went to the verse in interlinear to really check what it says.

13 3570 [e]
13 Nyni
13 Νυνὶ
13 Now
13 Adv

1161 [e]
de
δὲ
however
Conj

3306 [e]
menei
μένει
abide
V-PIA-3S

4102 [e]
pistis
πίστις ,
faith
N-NFS

1680 [e]
elpis
ἐλπίς ,
hope
N-NFS

26 [e]
agapē
ἀγάπη ,
love
N-NFS

3588 [e]
ta
τὰ
the things
Art-NNP

5140 [e]
tria
τρία
three
Adj-NNP

3778 [e]
tauta
ταῦτα ;
these
DPro-NNP

3173 [e]
meizōn
μείζων
[the] greatest
Adj-NFS-C

1161 [e]
de
δὲ
however
Conj

3778 [e]
toutōn
τούτων
of these [is]
DPro-GNP

3588 [e]
hē
ἡ
-
Art-NFS

26 [e]
agapē
ἀγάπη .
love
N-NFS

"Now however abide"... this is about what abides now in the present, not in the perfect future. The entire chapter exalts love though as the only thing to remain while everything else ceases. And yes you are right, faith and hope wouldn't be needed then.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Signs are for the nation Israel.

This is the key to understanding sign gifts. Indeed Paul makes this evident in 1 Corinthians 14: 20-22: 20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the Law [the Old Testament] it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

According to Isaiah 28:11,12, which is quoted above, tongues would establish THE UNBELIEF of Jews. As Jesus said, the Jews always looked for signs. So God in His grace and mercy gave them signs through Christ, the apostles, and their companions. But once the entire Bible had been written down ( 2nd century AD) and the Gospel began to spread throughout the world, the sign gifts were no longer necessary. And this was already prophesied in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

Of course, Charismatics and Pentecostals refuse to accept these truths, and claim that tongues are now a *prayer language*. But that is not really so when one carefully studies the 14th chapter. And the Catholic Church has always claimed the continuous occurrence of miracles by the saints (which has been fully addressed by B. B. Warfield in his book Counterfeit Miracles).

This is not to say that God will not do such miracles directly even today. But when we look for miracle workers IN EVERY CHRISTIAN CHURCH (which would be reasonable and logical if those gifts had continued) we will be sorely disappointed. Even the Charismatics do not have such miracle workers.

In the history of Israel, miracles were not continuous but appeared from time to time. However Jesus of Nazareth -- the Son of God and God manifest in the flesh -- did miracles daily and healed everyone who came to Him, regardless of their faith. Now James 5: 13-20 tells Christians how to obtain healing.

 

[JaumeJ]

Once more, it is very important in understanding the Word to be aware of exactly who the true Jews are, and w3ho makes up the eternal Israel.

As who will have signs and wonders, first all who believe, but in the very last moments of what we call time, all will recognize and see signs.